About v2Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union
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Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by thebandwagonsociety Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:00
On another thread, there was an interest comment on your most important player being your kicker, whether it be outhalf, fullback or second row.
It got me thinking about roles and positions for players. Kicking is primarily the outhalfs responsibility but we do not see anymore this being given to the best kicker on the field (Jordan Crane doesn't kick for Leicester and he did fairly well in the HC semi final some years back). So I have couple of thoughts and wonder if they are pie in the sky or valid thoughts.
Why should a hooker be throwing into the lineout? Surely teams should experiment with a winger. You could throw to the first receiver who pops the ball back to the winger who has the gas to run the line better than a front row player. A winger would also have more explosive pace and a better stepping ability if the ball was popped out of a pod after the throw is made. Just a thought but very rarely seen these days.
If you have a solid scrum and it is your feed, why don't teams switch a flanker and centre around? Having someone like Tom Croft or a SOB on a crash ball in the inside or outside centre channel would cause havoc off of first phase ball.
Also, if the scrum isn't your feed why don't teams consider switching the scrumhalf and outhalf? Having TOL or Murray in the '10' channel for Munster would be better defensively than ROG and ROG could be just as much of a bother to the scrumhalf and no8 at the base of the scrum.
If you are defending a scrum and have the dominant scrum, should teams not also think about getting their best ground hog out of the back row and into the midfield defense. That would cause uncertainty in the oppositions planned attacking moves, and means you have a fetcher away from the set piece and possibly closer to the next breakdown to try and win ball or slow recycling.
The above means taking a player out of their 'position' for certain set pieces but even though teams are fully professional they don't seem to think outside of the classic structures and positions of the game.
It got me thinking about roles and positions for players. Kicking is primarily the outhalfs responsibility but we do not see anymore this being given to the best kicker on the field (Jordan Crane doesn't kick for Leicester and he did fairly well in the HC semi final some years back). So I have couple of thoughts and wonder if they are pie in the sky or valid thoughts.
Why should a hooker be throwing into the lineout? Surely teams should experiment with a winger. You could throw to the first receiver who pops the ball back to the winger who has the gas to run the line better than a front row player. A winger would also have more explosive pace and a better stepping ability if the ball was popped out of a pod after the throw is made. Just a thought but very rarely seen these days.
If you have a solid scrum and it is your feed, why don't teams switch a flanker and centre around? Having someone like Tom Croft or a SOB on a crash ball in the inside or outside centre channel would cause havoc off of first phase ball.
Also, if the scrum isn't your feed why don't teams consider switching the scrumhalf and outhalf? Having TOL or Murray in the '10' channel for Munster would be better defensively than ROG and ROG could be just as much of a bother to the scrumhalf and no8 at the base of the scrum.
If you are defending a scrum and have the dominant scrum, should teams not also think about getting their best ground hog out of the back row and into the midfield defense. That would cause uncertainty in the oppositions planned attacking moves, and means you have a fetcher away from the set piece and possibly closer to the next breakdown to try and win ball or slow recycling.
The above means taking a player out of their 'position' for certain set pieces but even though teams are fully professional they don't seem to think outside of the classic structures and positions of the game.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Ozzy3213 Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:05
London irish have regularly taken Steffon Armitage out of the scrum and had whoever was playing 10 pack down, both in defensive and attacking positions.
Teams do think outside the box, but sometimes the best option is the traditional one.
Teams do think outside the box, but sometimes the best option is the traditional one.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by red_stag Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:07
You do see this a lot but commentators rarely pick up on it. Tigers used put Ian Humphreys on the wing to keep him out of way defensively.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:09
Chiefs often hide Gareth Steenson in defence on the blind side wing when the blind side is too narrow to offer a real attacking opportunity, and the winger takes his spot at 10 
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:33
Wingers used to throw in to the lineout a lot in the past. It doesn't have to be the hooker.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by MBTGOG Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:36
I really detest the idea that the kicker is generally put in at out half. I'd much prefer the most creative player in that position.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by red_stag Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 14:37
Exactly Munsty. Flyhalf is the playmaker. Anyone can kick goals.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by OzT Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 15:06
"Anyone can kick goals.."
You not seen Giteau try to kick?? LOL!
You not seen Giteau try to kick?? LOL!
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Adam Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 15:29
Surely the reason why it tends to be your 10 who kicks goals is that as a first reciever he needs to be able to execute both running and kicking options, so will therefore tend to have the best boot?
It's not that players in other positions aren't allowed to kick if they have the best boot (see Elton Flatley, Jean-Baptiste Ellisalde, Tom Homer, Percy Montgomery etc. etc.)....it's just that they tend not to have the best boot.
It's not that players in other positions aren't allowed to kick if they have the best boot (see Elton Flatley, Jean-Baptiste Ellisalde, Tom Homer, Percy Montgomery etc. etc.)....it's just that they tend not to have the best boot.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by thebandwagonsociety Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 15:30
But of the switches noted so far, the only one currently in use at more than 1 club is switching winger for outhalf in defensive formats off set pieces.
I think there is much more that could be done through switching up the roles and positions that this. Moving the outhalf because of his defensive inabilities is very much a move designed to shift a defensive weakness. Should there not be ways that switches are used as a wrinkle to a teams attacking play?
I think there is much more that could be done through switching up the roles and positions that this. Moving the outhalf because of his defensive inabilities is very much a move designed to shift a defensive weakness. Should there not be ways that switches are used as a wrinkle to a teams attacking play?
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by doctor_grey Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 15:35
Adam,
To your point, to be an out half, one must already have some kicking skills. So they get worked on in practice and are almost always developed as kickers. There is always the assumption that a 10 will always be a kicker, if not the first option. You are right, too, we see quality, top flight international kickers from all positions from 9 - 15. Really no limits there. Throw in John Eales for fun, and almost anyone can be a kicker. Though I would find it comical to see a Martin Castrogiovanni, Duncan Jones or Andrew Sheridan lining up a kick.
To your point, to be an out half, one must already have some kicking skills. So they get worked on in practice and are almost always developed as kickers. There is always the assumption that a 10 will always be a kicker, if not the first option. You are right, too, we see quality, top flight international kickers from all positions from 9 - 15. Really no limits there. Throw in John Eales for fun, and almost anyone can be a kicker. Though I would find it comical to see a Martin Castrogiovanni, Duncan Jones or Andrew Sheridan lining up a kick.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by ScarletSpiderman Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 15:41
The reason that the kicker tends to be the fly half, fullback or scrum half is down to the fact that those are the positions that tend to need an aspect of kicking ability in there. That said I don't think that the fly half should be selected purely on their kicking ability.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Mickado Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 16:02
Set piece kicking and kicking from hand are two differently sized but equally hot potatoes. Just because someone is good kicking out of hand doesn’t mean they’ll be good off the tee.
Not rugby I know, but I remember for my GAA team in school. I was a half forward so my range to kick from was about 30/40 yards, out of hand I would score a few points per game, but off the ground I was deplorable. We used to get our half back to kick the free’s, he probably never scored a point from play in all the time I played with him, but he was the best place kicker.
Not rugby I know, but I remember for my GAA team in school. I was a half forward so my range to kick from was about 30/40 yards, out of hand I would score a few points per game, but off the ground I was deplorable. We used to get our half back to kick the free’s, he probably never scored a point from play in all the time I played with him, but he was the best place kicker.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Tayto Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 16:10
Will you go way with yourself Mick,
Out of the hand I would score a few points per game.
No wonder the old Dubs are no good at the gaa.
Out of the hand I would score a few points per game.
No wonder the old Dubs are no good at the gaa.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Adam Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 16:21
doctor grey - exactly. I think teams genuinely pick their best kicker to kick at goal. It just so happens that, because of the open play kicking abilities associated with their position, this tends to be the fly half....simple as that!
Rugby's all about balance, though, isn't it: players bring different things to a team, and as long as those aspects are balanced across the team then it doesn't really matter who's doing what.
Rugby's all about balance, though, isn't it: players bring different things to a team, and as long as those aspects are balanced across the team then it doesn't really matter who's doing what.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by greybeard Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 17:03
If you're a hooker and play for a team that prefers it's wingers to throw into the lineout then you'll have little experience with it.
Now what if you're the best hooker in the country? You could get passed over for an international call up because the international team doesn't have wingers (or whoever) experienced enough at throwing into the lineout.
Kicking isn't so bad, most backs are expected to be able to at least know the general mechanics of a placekick. But as far as lineouts are concerned, market forces have driven the need for a lineout throwing hooker every time.
Now what if you're the best hooker in the country? You could get passed over for an international call up because the international team doesn't have wingers (or whoever) experienced enough at throwing into the lineout.
Kicking isn't so bad, most backs are expected to be able to at least know the general mechanics of a placekick. But as far as lineouts are concerned, market forces have driven the need for a lineout throwing hooker every time.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by thebandwagonsociety Thu 2 Jun 2011 - 18:40
I'm wouldn't be saying to permanently change who throws in at a lineout. I would say that mixing your personnel up would confuse your opposition and if you are well drilled enough to run a 1st phase play, then getting a backrow in a prime location to defend or placing a speedster within the lineout (or indeed throwing in) where he could get a side stepping matchup on a front row player should be consider more often by more teams.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by emack2 Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 6:44
Stating the obvious but,it does not matterwho throws in at line out wing or hooker providing it is done accurately.Wingers did it into well into the 1970`s but the technique taught was a bowling action[heavy leather ball].Again your best Goal kicker takes the kicks,whatever Forward,wing,centre,flyhalf,scrum half,full back all have taken goal kicks in the past.Full back used to do it most,now fly half does mostly but if it goes over who cares who does it.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by emack2 Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 6:45
Stating the obvious but,it does not matterwho throws in at line out wing or hooker providing it is done accurately.Wingers did it into well into the 1970`s but the technique taught was a bowling action[heavy leather ball].Again your best Goal kicker takes the kicks,whatever Forward,wing,centre,flyhalf,scrum half,full back all have taken goal kicks in the past.Full back used to do it most,now fly half does mostly but if it goes over who cares who does it.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Glas a du Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 7:54
thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Kicking is primarily the outhalfs responsibility but we do not see anymore this being given to the best kicker on the field. the amount of practice it takes to be a kicker for a pro team nowadays means that the technical skills other position also have to practice militates against anybody but an outside half developing such skills.
Why should a hooker be throwing into the lineout? nobody is going to train up their wingers for two moves which, let's face it, are easy to defend if you know what's coming.
If you have a solid scrum and it is your feed, why don't teams switch a flanker and centre?to have a banker scrum you need a flanker that supports your prop and who can protect your scrum half without being pinged, so that's a skill you have to teach your centre. What happens if the other side takes it against the head? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's how coaches think.
Also, if the scrum isn't your feed why don't teams consider switching the scrumhalf and outhalf?if there is any chance of pinching one against the head you want your players on their usual positions as that is excellent attacking ball.
If you are defending a scrum and have the dominant scrum, should teams not also think about getting their best ground hog out of the back row and into the midfield defense. how many times to teams attack off scrums? Do you not think that their back row will do back row moves targeting your temporary flanker knowing Jennings or whoever is out of the way?
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by MeanAsCustard Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 13:02
I really like the idea - have seen it done (albeit rarely) and played in teams that have done it. As mentioned already, shifting positions in defence is often used to 'hide' a weak tackler. I've played in teams that have switched inside centre and openside flanker for scrums so that a beast of a back-rower can get more of a run up at the opposing 10.
I guess the reason it doesn't happen more often at a senior level is that a) the specialists are usually the best at executing their particular task and b) if it goes right you look like a genius, but if it goes wrong... oh dear!
I remember the 1995 England WC game against Western Samoa (as they were then) when Kieran Bracken played on one flank and Brian Moore on the other - although that was due to injury, rather than tactics. Also, Remember Simon Hodgkinson? As close as any international team ever got to an American Football-style specialist kicker - i.e. his sole task was to kick goals and rarely took part in any other part of the game (which is why his jersey was whiter after the 80 mins than during the anthems!)
I guess the reason it doesn't happen more often at a senior level is that a) the specialists are usually the best at executing their particular task and b) if it goes right you look like a genius, but if it goes wrong... oh dear!
I remember the 1995 England WC game against Western Samoa (as they were then) when Kieran Bracken played on one flank and Brian Moore on the other - although that was due to injury, rather than tactics. Also, Remember Simon Hodgkinson? As close as any international team ever got to an American Football-style specialist kicker - i.e. his sole task was to kick goals and rarely took part in any other part of the game (which is why his jersey was whiter after the 80 mins than during the anthems!)
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by GunsGerms Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 13:24
Keith Wood once scored a drop goal for Ireland. John Eales the great Aussie second row used to take the kicks. Damn good kicker too.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by MeanAsCustard Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 13:34
I remember that! I also remember Matt Dunning's drop goal a few years back. Waratahs needing a try bonus point are awarded a straight-arm advantage; Dunning goes for a drop goal (presumably he thought he'd miss) which sails through the posts! Genius!
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by GunsGerms Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 13:36
MeanAsCustard wrote:I remember that! I also remember Matt Dunning's drop goal a few years back. Waratahs needing a try bonus point are awarded a straight-arm advantage; Dunning goes for a drop goal (presumably he thought he'd miss) which sails through the posts! Genius!
You sure it was Dunning? Find it hard to believe he doesn't seem very athletic at all.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by red_stag Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 13:43
leinsterbaby wrote:MeanAsCustard wrote:I remember that! I also remember Matt Dunning's drop goal a few years back. Waratahs needing a try bonus point are awarded a straight-arm advantage; Dunning goes for a drop goal (presumably he thought he'd miss) which sails through the posts! Genius!
You sure it was Dunning? Find it hard to believe he doesn't seem very athletic at all.
Yea it was Dunning, it just made it twice as funny.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by greybeard Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 15:53
The 3 points came as much as a shock to him as it did to every one else.
Never seen someone having to apologise for a sucessful DG before. Classic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAvMKkC1kjA
Never seen someone having to apologise for a sucessful DG before. Classic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAvMKkC1kjA
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 19:39
greybeard wrote:The 3 points came as much as a shock to him as it did to every one else.
Never seen someone having to apologise for a sucessful DG before. Classic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAvMKkC1kjA
Never get tired of watching that - it has to be the most amusing "choke"* the Waratahs have ever managed.
*For those not familiar with Super Rugby history, the Waratah's MO over the years has been to start the comp in amazing form, win plenty of games and then, just as the Aussie media (the Aussie RU Press is very NSW-dominated) are salivating at the prospect of them bringing home the bacon the form slump hits and more often than not they miss out on the playoffs ...
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by red_stag Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 21:11
To be fair to Dunning. His team are winning by 3 points. They are 40m away from the opposition goal line. There is still 13 minutes remaining. A 3 point cushion wasn't the worst thing in the world.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 21:21
From memory they needed 2 tries for the bonus point though Stag
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Notch Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 21:44
They had advantage though, and Dunning wanted the advantage so they could kick to the corner or tap and go- as they needed a bonus point win (I think- Kiwi?).
So, Dunning thinks he'll try the drop goal, miss, then the referee will come back for the penalty. But it all went horribly right!
On wingers throwing into the lineout- just no longer practical in the modern game as so many teams look to launch backs moves off first phase lineout ball. Even if you don't you're taking one of your best strike runners out of the play for a phase or two, so less for the opposition defence to worry about.
Also it's a skill that requires a lot of training and practice both with and without jumpers and normally the backs and forwards will be split for some sessions. So it's kind of awkward to have a back working so closely with the pack.
So, Dunning thinks he'll try the drop goal, miss, then the referee will come back for the penalty. But it all went horribly right!
On wingers throwing into the lineout- just no longer practical in the modern game as so many teams look to launch backs moves off first phase lineout ball. Even if you don't you're taking one of your best strike runners out of the play for a phase or two, so less for the opposition defence to worry about.
Also it's a skill that requires a lot of training and practice both with and without jumpers and normally the backs and forwards will be split for some sessions. So it's kind of awkward to have a back working so closely with the pack.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Gibson Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 22:13
I am a great believer in all backs being able to kick well for position out of hand. And proficient at a DG attempt. I also believe that your SH should be able to place-kick as well as he box-kicks. As well as his 10. A la Pienaar. The French have been doing it for years.
Why limit the game to strict positional roles and duties, when it can be enhanced by players who are competently multi-faceted ?
I think it is moving that way. See McFadden as an example.
But forwards should never be "allowed" kick. That's taking it too far.
Wingers throwing the ball at the lineout, has just gone out of fashion in the modern game. There is no reason they cant - if the call is made and understood, in the heat of the game.
The team that can mix it up, really has a edge.
This is a really good article.
Why limit the game to strict positional roles and duties, when it can be enhanced by players who are competently multi-faceted ?
I think it is moving that way. See McFadden as an example.
But forwards should never be "allowed" kick. That's taking it too far.
Wingers throwing the ball at the lineout, has just gone out of fashion in the modern game. There is no reason they cant - if the call is made and understood, in the heat of the game.
The team that can mix it up, really has a edge.
This is a really good article.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Glas a du Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 22:19
Innovation for innovations sake is pointless. A tactical play which gives an advantage from positional changes is a gamble. If it comes off, fine. Gibson is right though, when you see people like Andy Powell kicking in midfield it makes you want to give him a good shake.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 22:21
Notch wrote:They had advantage though, and Dunning wanted the advantage so they could kick to the corner or tap and go- as they needed a bonus point win (I think- Kiwi?).
So, Dunning thinks he'll try the drop goal, miss, then the referee will come back for the penalty. But it all went horribly right!
Pretty much Notch. They needed 2 tries in 13 minutes to qualify for the semis, and the Chiefs had a man in the bin - perfect time to be hot on attack rather than fielding a kickoff back in your own half.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 22:22
Gibson wrote:
...
But forwards should never be "allowed" to kick. That's taking it too far.
...
This is a really good article.
Zinzan Brooke excepted from the kicking ban of course Gibbo
And I agree, great article.
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Re: Is rugby limiting itself by playing positions?
by Notch Fri 3 Jun 2011 - 22:31
Glas a du wrote:Innovation for innovations sake is pointless. A tactical play which gives an advantage from positional changes is a gamble. If it comes off, fine. Gibson is right though, when you see people like Andy Powell kicking in midfield it makes you want to give him a good shake.
Andy Powell has got it backwards, he thinks it forwards should never PASS not forwards should never kick.
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