Scotland XV of the professional era (post 1995)

Borrowing from our Welsh friends, here's a proposed Scotland 23 using players from the professional era:

1.Tom Smith 2.Gordon Bulloch 3.Euan Murray 4.Nathan Hines 5.Scott Murray 6.Jason White 7.John Hardie 8.Simon Taylor 9.Mike Blair 10.Gregor Townsend 11.Sean Lamont 12.John Leslie 13.Alan Tait 14.Tommy Seymour 15.Chris Paterson

16.Ali Dickinson 17.Ross Ford 18.WP Nel 19.J Gray 20.A Hogg 21.G Armstrong 22.M Bennett 23.S Hogg


Obviously not as "World Class" as the Welsh one, but discuss nonetheless.....

Blair better than Armstrong (judging on pro era only?) or Cussiter?

Would also have expected Chalmers at 10 and Gregor at 12

I think it says a lot about Scotland's issues over the last couple of decades that the selection of the pack looks a lot stronger than the back division.

In his pomp Blair was the best 9 we've had. He offered a superb running threat and his ability to read the game was excellent. Armstrong was the proverbial extra flanker around the rucks and was hyper-competitive. His service lacked in comparison to Blair I would say, and he didn't have Blair's pace. Cusiter was probably a hybrid of the two. The other 9 I considered was Basil Redpath. He had the best pass of any of our 9s in the pro era and if you were a scrum half purest he'd probably get the nod.

It's shame each of the other positions aren't as hotly debated with such excellent candidates as 9!!

Toonie at 10 was inspirational, comfortably my favourite Scotland player despite his flaws. The midfield combination of Toonie, Leslie and Tait is the best of my lifetime so there's no way I'd sacrifice that for Chalmers.

FES

Fair enough. As an England supporter, I always feared Armstrong as an opponent more than Blair or Cusiter, although accept all three were outstanding in their way. You're right though to make the point that at 9 you have a choice of about 3 or 4 near world class operators, but elsewhere there hasn't been the same excellence.

Gregor at 10 was always one of those selections that felt a bit like a triumph of hope over experience. He definitely had some fine attributes as a ball carrier and distributor, but wasn't the best game manager, which is why I feel that he was a better 12 and Chalmers was the better all round 10. Always felt with Gregor at 10 a bit like I do when England fans want Cipriani to be there - he might win you the game, but it's 50/50 between that and doing something to lose the game instead.

It's a fair comment on Toonie. His game management ebbed and flowed between the sublime and the ridiculous. His kicking from hand was not impressive either. His clearances could sometimes blend into a cross field kick, and his ability to miss touch a tad frequent for my liking. Where he excelled though was in getting the backline moving, and bringing players into space. Finn Russell has shown signs of that and we've had glimpses from Jackson over the years, but Toonie always kept the defence interested. Chalmers was a far more rounded and measured player. You knew what you were getting, but rarely did he excite.

As a journalist wrote during the Lions' triumph in SA,

"With ball in hand Townsend looked the most dangerous player on the field. Whether he was a danger to the opposition or to his own side was never quite clear."

1.Tom Smith
2.Gordon Bulloch
3.Euan Murray
4.Nathan Hines
5.Scott Murray
6.Jason White
7.John Hardie
8.Simon Taylor
9.Mike Blair
10.Gregor Townsend
11.Chris Paterson
12.John Leslie
13.Alan Tait
14.Tommy Seymour
15.Gavin Hastings

16.Ali Dickinson 17.Ross Ford 18.WP Nel 19.J Gray 20.A Hogg 21.G Armstrong 22.M Bennett 23.S Hogg

for what it's worth just a minor brace of changes. Hastings played in the 1995 6N so I felt he was fair game for inclusion.

dummy_half wrote:Blair better than Armstrong (judging on pro era only?) or Cussiter?

Would also have expected Chalmers at 10 and Gregor at 12

I think it says a lot about Scotland's issues over the last couple of decades that the selection of the pack looks a lot stronger than the back division.

Not in a million years. Gary is one of my favourite all time players ....and yes as a falcon fan I may be biased. Hes Scotlands best ever scrum half...the others don't come close (and they've had some bloody good ones)

In fact I would say Scotland are the leading nation in the world in with their history of developing SH's!

Wheres the chainsaw??

What about Peter Walton, George Graham, Doddie, All played in the pro era!

Gary Armstrong was one hell of a scrum half - I can't think of any better in the 9 shirt for Scotland.

Have to agree, Armstrong was better than the others, fantastic player.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wheres the chainsaw??

Damn you for mentioning him!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Peter Walton, George Graham, Doddie, All played in the pro era!

I'm seeing a common theme here.....

Walton wasn't nearly as good as White, but he was a very handy impact sub so there's certainly a case for him on the bench (I went with Ali Hogg, another Falcon, just to keep you happy).

Graham wasn't an 80 minute prop, and when faced with the likes of Leonard, Califano, Clohessy etc. tended to struggle. Again, used mainly as an impact sub by Scotland, but from an era when none of our props could really scrummage for toffee (a long era some might say).

Doddie was very close indeed.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wheres the chainsaw??

Damn you for mentioning him!!

Classy player

funnyExiledScot wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about Peter Walton, George Graham, Doddie, All played in the pro era!

I'm seeing a common theme here.....

Really? What would that be....

jimbopip wrote:As a journalist wrote during the Lions' triumph in SA,

"With ball in hand Townsend looked the most dangerous player on the field. Whether he was a danger to the opposition or to his own side was never quite clear."

We didn't have the words for it at the time, but Townsend seemed to play his rugby in bullet time, per The Matrix. He understood the game like few players before or since and seemed to see the game ahead of everyone else. Unfortunately, he didn't have players around him who could do the same and was often so far ahead of them that they couldn't keep up.

1. Kyle Traynor 2. Fergus Thomson 3. Geoff Cross 4. Al Kellock 5. Scott MacLeod 6. Al Strokosch 7. Blair Cowan 8. Dave Callam 9. Rory Lawson 10. Gordon Ross 11. Simon Danielli 12. Graeme Morrison 13. Andy Henderson 14. Simon Webster 15. Peter Murchie

special mention to Stephen Shingler

Surely Andy Nichol instead of Lawson? And no Marcus DiRollo...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Surely Andy Nichol instead of Lawson? And no Marcus DiRollo...

Or Nick de Useless

Lee Jones?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
15.Gavin Hastings


for what it's worth just a minor brace of changes. Hastings played in the 1995 6N so I felt he was fair game for inclusion.

Big Gav played his last test in RWC95 - June 11th. Game was declared open at the end of August - so surely he cannot be eligible?

LondonTiger wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
15.Gavin Hastings


for what it's worth just a minor brace of changes. Hastings played in the 1995 6N so I felt he was fair game for inclusion.

Big Gav played his last test in RWC95 - June 11th. Game was declared open at the end of August - so surely he cannot be eligible?

That was my view, and he despised professionalism and opposed it in Scotland, so I always consider him the last great Scot of the amateur era.

123456789 wrote:1. Kyle Traynor 2. Fergus Thomson 3. Geoff Cross 4. Al Kellock 5. Scott MacLeod 6. Al Strokosch 7. Blair Cowan 8. Dave Callam 9. Rory Lawson 10. Gordon Ross 11. Simon Danielli 12. Graeme Morrison 13. Andy Henderson 14. Simon Webster 15. Peter Murchie

special mention to Stephen Shingler

Some notable omissions there numbers.

1.Matthew Proudfoot 2.Robbie Russell 3.Gordon McIlwham 4.Iain Fullerton 5.Scott MacLeod 6.Dave Callum 7.Scott Gray 8.Ross Beattie 9.Iain Fairley 10.Duncan Weir 11.Roland Reid 12.Kevin Utterson 13.Marcus Di Rollo 14.Jon Steel 15.Stuart Moffatt

16.Kyle Traynor 17.Steve Scott 18.Ed Kalman 19.Matt Mustchin 20.Alan MacDonald 21.Graeme Beveridge 22.Tom Heathcote 23.Ben Hinshelwood

FES / 123

So much (lack of) quality and not one mention of Desperate Dan Parks

Hold it there. Dan Parks may well have cost us a few games, but he won us a fair few as well and was held in high regard by his team mates. He took some very unfair flack considering his points haul for Scotland and his kicking game was extremely effective when compared to Duncky Weir (AKA "Diet Dan").

1 Tom Smith 2 Gordon Bulloch 3 Euan Murray 4 Nathan Hines 5 Scott Murray 6 Jason White 7 Martin Leslie 8 Simon Taylor 9 Gary Armstrong 10 Gregor Townsend 11 Chris Paterson 12 John Leslie 13 Alan Tait 14 Tony Stanger 15 Glenn Metcalfe
16 Ross Ford 17 George Graham 18 Paul Burnell 19 Doddie Weir 20 Ally Hogg 21 Mike Blair 22 Craig Chalmers 23 Stuart Hogg

Some great leaders in that line up but I'd go Gary Armstrong as captain. Best 9 to ever play for Scotland and led them to the 5 nations title.
Would have Martin Leslie at 7, not a conventional openside but was very effective when he played there and was hard as nails and also had a great try scoring record. No8 was tempted by Eric Peters who had a great spell in the mid to late 90s.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
15.Gavin Hastings


for what it's worth just a minor brace of changes. Hastings played in the 1995 6N so I felt he was fair game for inclusion.

Big Gav played his last test in RWC95 - June 11th. Game was declared open at the end of August - so surely he cannot be eligible?

That was my view, and he despised professionalism and opposed it in Scotland, so I always consider him the last great Scot of the amateur era.

Interesting that his views seem to have been so influential through to the current day.

Rob Wainwright was an excellent backrow forward. He would certainly be in the team.

fa0019 wrote:Rob Wainwright was an excellent backrow forward. He would certainly be in the team.

I disagree. I thought Wainwright was a pretty average player to be honest. Nice bloke and well respected in Scottish rugby circles for being a good chap and all that, but owed his Lions tour in 1997 to uncommon charity from Jim Telfer.

Well behind Taylor at 8 and White at 6. 7 hasn't been a strength for Scotland in the pro era so there's perhaps a debate to be had there. I put in John Hardie off the back of a superb World Cup, but Maj has opted for Martin Leslie which is a fair shout, and John Barclay could also lay a claim I suspect. Wainwright didn't really fit into any sort of conventional back row position - a bit of a 6.5. I'd put him on a par with Kelly Brown.

I have to say that had Donnie MacFadyen not been unlucky with injuries, I personally believe he could have become an outstanding player for Scotland.

George Smith once said that he was the best opponent he'd ever played against.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Rob Wainwright was an excellent backrow forward. He would certainly be in the team.

I disagree. I thought Wainwright was a pretty average player to be honest. Nice bloke and well respected in Scottish rugby circles for being a good chap and all that, but owed his Lions tour in 1997 to uncommon charity from Jim Telfer.

Well behind Taylor at 8 and White at 6. 7 hasn't been a strength for Scotland in the pro era so there's perhaps a debate to be had there. I put in John Hardie off the back of a superb World Cup, but Maj has opted for Martin Leslie which is a fair shout, and John Barclay could also lay a claim I suspect. Wainwright didn't really fit into any sort of conventional back row position - a bit of a 6.5. I'd put him on a par with Kelly Brown.

really??? Wainwright was excellent in the 95 world cup, excellent in the years following too. Scotland was playing some beautiful rugby at the time and he had all the skills. His military career cut short his caps on either end. He was one of the only forwards in the NH of his generation who could actually play the ball.

I'd go for

1. Tom Smith 2. Gordon Bulloch 3. Euan Murray 4. Nathan Hines 5. Scott Murray 6. Jason White 7. John Barclay 8. Simon Taylor 9. Mike Blair 10. Gregor Townsend 11. Chris Paterson 12. Alex Dunbar 13. Alan Tait 14. Sean Maitland 15. Stuart Hogg

for me Simon Taylor never did anything in a Scotland jersey. He had immense talent, immense potential but just never converted that into world class performances.

He probably did as much as any other number 8 for Scotland in the pro era, his competition is the likes of Johnnie Beattie, Richie Vernon etc. all of whom failed to meet their potential level in the Scotland shirt

If Beattie consistently played as he did 6 years ago against Ireland, he'd have been some player.

Almost Ayr-esque some might say.

Aye but consistency is as much a skill as a sidestep, goalkicking, getting turnovers or tackling.

1, Chunk
2, Bulloch
3,E,Murray
4, Hines
6,Murray
7,pountney
8,Taylor
6, White
9, Redpath
10, Townsend
11,lamont
12,Leslie
13,Tait
14, Hogg
15, metcalf

16 Smith
17 ford
18 Faggerson
19 grey (elder)
20 leslie
21 blair
22 dunbar
23cammy murray

Chunk better than Tom Smith??? Really??

funnyExiledScot wrote:Chunk better than Tom Smith??? Really??

In terms of being a better customer at Greggs the bakers, yes.

fa0019 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Rob Wainwright was an excellent backrow forward. He would certainly be in the team.

I disagree. I thought Wainwright was a pretty average player to be honest. Nice bloke and well respected in Scottish rugby circles for being a good chap and all that, but owed his Lions tour in 1997 to uncommon charity from Jim Telfer.

Well behind Taylor at 8 and White at 6. 7 hasn't been a strength for Scotland in the pro era so there's perhaps a debate to be had there. I put in John Hardie off the back of a superb World Cup, but Maj has opted for Martin Leslie which is a fair shout, and John Barclay could also lay a claim I suspect. Wainwright didn't really fit into any sort of conventional back row position - a bit of a 6.5. I'd put him on a par with Kelly Brown.

really??? Wainwright was excellent in the 95 world cup, excellent in the years following too. Scotland was playing some beautiful rugby at the time and he had all the skills. His military career cut short his caps on either end. He was one of the only forwards in the NH of his generation who could actually play the ball.

Fes, on that Lions tour Wainwright captained the mid-week side and set the record for the fastest ever hat-trick scored by a Lions player. When did Scotland last have a back-rower who looked like he could score three tries in one game against ANY level of opposition?

You mean when he scored 3 tries against the mighty Mpumalanga Pumas in a 64-14 romp?

I remember watching the game. Young Pipetto would have scored 10 tries in that game.

jimbopip wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Rob Wainwright was an excellent backrow forward. He would certainly be in the team.

I disagree. I thought Wainwright was a pretty average player to be honest. Nice bloke and well respected in Scottish rugby circles for being a good chap and all that, but owed his Lions tour in 1997 to uncommon charity from Jim Telfer.

Well behind Taylor at 8 and White at 6. 7 hasn't been a strength for Scotland in the pro era so there's perhaps a debate to be had there. I put in John Hardie off the back of a superb World Cup, but Maj has opted for Martin Leslie which is a fair shout, and John Barclay could also lay a claim I suspect. Wainwright didn't really fit into any sort of conventional back row position - a bit of a 6.5. I'd put him on a par with Kelly Brown.

really??? Wainwright was excellent in the 95 world cup, excellent in the years following too. Scotland was playing some beautiful rugby at the time and he had all the skills. His military career cut short his caps on either end. He was one of the only forwards in the NH of his generation who could actually play the ball.

Fes, on that Lions tour Wainwright captained the mid-week side and set the record for the fastest ever hat-trick scored by a Lions player. When did Scotland last have a back-rower  who looked like he could score three tries in one game against ANY level of opposition?

Ally Hogg scored a hat trick in the 2007 world cup!

funnyExiledScot wrote:You mean when he scored 3 tries against the mighty Mpumalanga Pumas in a 64-14 romp?

I remember watching the game. Young Pipetto would have scored 10 tries in that game.

Was it not that game that Doddie Weir got his knee caved in?

We're going into the mists of memory but I'm sure Cap'n Wainwright scored his hat-trick later on in the tour. Towards the end the mid-week side were playing sensational rugby and were really "laying down markers" for the firstXV. Doddie Weir was butchered quite early in the tour was he not?

p.s Mpumalanga were shocking in their brutality and not much better at playing rugby: Pipetto would probably have only scored two against them. The youngster is eagerly awaiting his matchball from the Warriors, I just want to see if Dancer's letter is in crayon and the writing is joined up.

p.p.s. Just thankful it's a signed photo of Dancer they're sending and not Schlong.

Majestic83 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:You mean when he scored 3 tries against the mighty Mpumalanga Pumas in a 64-14 romp?

I remember watching the game. Young Pipetto would have scored 10 tries in that game.

Was it not that game that Doddie Weir got his knee caved in?

Yep - that's the one.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Chunk better than Tom Smith??? Really??

In terms of being a better customer at Greggs the bakers, yes.

Yes. There was no force on earth that could stop the chunk when he had his hackles up. Watched him march back all blacks and boks.

Prothero wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Chunk better than Tom Smith??? Really??

In terms of being a better customer at Greggs the bakers, yes.

Yes. There was no force on earth that could stop the chunk when he had his hackles up. Watched him march back all blacks and boks.

Well I suppose this is a Forum for debate and all opinions carry a certain amount of validity.

As an Edinburgh fan I can assure you that I have a soft spot for Chunk Jacobsen, his ill-fitting kit and his penchant for taking the ball as first received. Due to being as wide as he is tall, I will concede that he was an awkward customer to scrummage against throughout his 286 appearances for Edinburgh and his 65 well deserved Scotland caps. The fact that Edinburgh created a "most dedicated player" trophy (like the Al Kellock Award for Mediocrity, but better) in his honour, moulded in the shape of his right cauliflower ear, tells you something about the player.

But....we're talking about Tom Smith here. He played 6 consecutive Lions Test matches (on the winning side 3 times), kept Jason Leonard out of the 1997 side and held his own against a Springbok pack spearheaded by Os Du Randt. Smith is a 5 Nations winner, captained Scotland on a number of occasions and was named Scotland Player of the Year in 2000/2001. As horrible as this stat is, I also think he's the last Scot to start a Test Match for the Lions (15 years ago).

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Prothero wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Chunk better than Tom Smith??? Really??

In terms of being a better customer at Greggs the bakers, yes.

Yes. There was no force on earth that could stop the chunk when he had his hackles up. Watched him march back all blacks and boks.

Well I suppose this is a Forum for debate and all opinions carry a certain amount of validity.

As an Edinburgh fan I can assure you that I have a soft spot for Chunk Jacobsen, his ill-fitting kit and his penchant for taking the ball as first received. Due to being as wide as he is tall, I will concede that he was an awkward customer to scrummage against throughout his 286 appearances for Edinburgh and his 65 well deserved Scotland caps. The fact that Edinburgh created a "most dedicated player" trophy (like the Al Kellock Award for Mediocrity, but better) in his honour, moulded in the shape of his right cauliflower ear, tells you something about the player.

But....we're talking about Tom Smith here. He played 6 consecutive Lions Test matches (on the winning side 3 times), kept Jason Leonard out of the 1997 side and held his own against a Springbok pack spearheaded by Os Du Randt. Smith is a 5 Nations winner, captained Scotland on a number of occasions and was named Scotland Player of the Year in 2000/2001. As horrible as this stat is, I also think he's the last Scot to start a Test Match for the Lions (15 years ago).

and imagine all that quality and experience coming on the 60th minute once chunks got them on the run.

Surely ickle Jonny gets a place? I suppose many of our current crop are too young to be judged yet but Russell, Dunbar and Hogg should be in with a shout.

At 9 I would have Cusiter - Armstrong got too tied up in forward battles at time. Cus just shades it for me for his dedication to the art of winding up the opposition.

Toonie at ten - I like a mercurial player so I would have him of Chalmers