IRFU Investment into Its Branches

"He puts the pudding on the table for slicing. “Let’s say a province is spending around €12m per annum. It’s P&L (profit and loss) comes from gates of, say €6-7m, there’s expenditure of around €12m which requires a subsidy from the IRFU of around €6-7m. They are rough figures, but we are subsiding the provinces to that tune each year."

"We put money in to each province in terms of players and technical staff. The Union is putting in at least 50% in terms of turnover into each of the provinces.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/philip-browne-interview-trying-to-spread-the-jam-evenly-387047.html

There we are then. That's that one put to bed. €25-28m spent each year on top of home grown income.

So the Provinces get about £5m each, with a turnover of around £9.4m.

Your point is?

Don't think this ones got the legs to go very far.

Munchkin wrote:Don't think this ones got the legs to go very far.

I suppose you could just apologise to Phil and we could have done, like?

Oh, and what would I be apologising for? I like to know these things before I do.

Is Phil a podgy norfolker?

No, he's just a very naughty boy

Munchkin wrote:Oh, and what would I be apologising for? I like to know these things before I do.

Shall we really review the history of this kind of stuff on this board?

So many Irish rugby followers denied the level of investment form the IRFU, so many tried to ridicule this http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493 but now it's all been proven to be true, straight from the mouth of the IRFU Chief Executive.

If Im not mistaken Phil did you not say all money went to the IRFU from the provinces including HC/ERCC monies?

Also, the provinces are running the amateur game - you aren’t comparing apples with apples when people start equating the provinces to the French Top 14 clubs.

Was this quote deliberately ignored? We do not know how much it costs to run amateur rugby - but it is cost not born by the regions, where WRU directly fund grassroots rugby.

LondonTiger wrote:

Also, the provinces are running the amateur game - you aren’t comparing apples with apples when people start equating the provinces to the French Top 14 clubs.

Was this quote deliberately ignored? We do not know how much it costs to run amateur rugby - but it is  cost not born by the regions, where WRU directly fund grassroots rugby.

Phil would never do such a thing

So let me get this straight - the regions don't fund, or help fund development of, any of their local amateur clubs? Any? Or the provincial women's game? Or the school rugby programmes? They wouldn't be, as Ulster are this week, funding the Schools Cup and hosting it at Ravenhill? They really just pay for themselves?

The regions really should be doing much better if they are able to spend all their money on their professional team.

marty2086 wrote:If Im not mistaken Phil did you not say all money went to the IRFU from the provinces including HC/ERCC monies?

Through the IRFU.

LondonTiger wrote:

Also, the provinces are running the amateur game - you aren’t comparing apples with apples when people start equating the provinces to the French Top 14 clubs.

Was this quote deliberately ignored? We do not know how much it costs to run amateur rugby - but it is  cost not born by the regions, where WRU directly fund grassroots rugby.

In its last annual report, the IRFU claimed to have spent €8,848,602 on 'Domestic & Community Rugby'.

Not the provinces.

Don Alfonso wrote:So let me get this straight - the regions don't fund, or help fund development of, any of their local amateur clubs? Any? Or the provincial women's game? Or the school rugby programmes? They wouldn't be, as Ulster are this week, funding the Schools Cup and hosting it at Ravenhill? They really just pay for themselves?

The regions really should be doing much better if they are able to spend all their money on their professional team.

Erm, yes the Pro Teams in Wales do fund their own Community initiatives such as what Ulster are doing this week.

marty2086 wrote:
Phil would never do such a thing

Yay, you got one thing right.

PhilBB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:So let me get this straight - the regions don't fund, or help fund development of, any of their local amateur clubs? Any? Or the provincial women's game? Or the school rugby programmes? They wouldn't be, as Ulster are this week, funding the Schools Cup and hosting it at Ravenhill? They really just pay for themselves?

The regions really should be doing much better if they are able to spend all their money on their professional team.

Erm, yes the Pro Teams in Wales do fund their own Community initiatives such as what Ulster are doing this week.

Well, it's not a "community initiative". It's the year-in-year-out Schools Cup.

And the amateur clubs? And the women's game?

Second oldest rugby competition in the world, I think, actually.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Oh, and what would I be apologising for? I like to know these things before I do.

Shall we really review the history of this kind of stuff on this board?

So many Irish rugby followers denied the level of investment form the IRFU, so many tried to ridicule this http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493 but now it's all been proven to be true, straight from the mouth of the IRFU Chief Executive.

Yes, please do, Phil. I would would really enjoy you finding a reason I should apologise for this.

What's your thoughts on this piece, Phil?

“The shareholders in each branch are the clubs, that’s the way it is. In France, someone comes in and buys the club — as in the players, the brand, the physical facilities, the whole shooting match. Gloucester, for instance, has just been sold by the Walkinshaws for around £12m, and a new owner, Martin St Quinton, has bought the controlling shares.

“Now compare that to Munster: Thomond Park is owned by the clubs and by the branch. You can’t sell that. The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU, the revenue streams aren’t sufficient to cover the costs of running the professional game — so whoever is going to invest in professional rugby in Ireland is essentially writing cheques for €1m and continue doing that until they get bored.

“What happens then? You have to find someone else to write the cheque. How many such folk are out there with that level of discretionary income, who are prepared to simply be a sugar daddy. Therein lies the difficulty. The Walkinshaw family could either have sold Gloucester as a going concern (which they did) or just sell the place and build houses.

“Whatever investment is made in Ireland, it can’t be secured against anything."

A good companion piece:

https://www.606v2.com/t59768-irish-big-spenders

PhilBB wrote:There we are then. That's that one put to bed. €25-28m spent each year on top of home grown income.

'“Let’s say a province is spending around €12m per annum. It’s P&L (profit and loss) comes from gates of, say €6-7m, there’s expenditure of around €12m which requires a subsidy from the IRFU of around €6-7m. They are rough figures, but we are subsiding the provinces to that tune each year."

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:If Im not mistaken Phil did you not say all money went to the IRFU from the provinces including HC/ERCC monies?

Through the IRFU.

'A bad year for the clubs in Europe won’t directly impact the IRFU, but obviously down the track may do if they don’t financially make ends meet.'

So by your logic and Brownes statement, some of that 'subsidy' is prize money from Europe?

Don Alfonso wrote:
Well, it's not a "community initiative". It's the year-in-year-out Schools Cup.

And the amateur clubs? And the women's game?

Yes, there are Schools Cups in Wales. And a women's game.

The amateur clubs? No investment from PRW into that. Just like the IRFU's €8m.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Oh, and what would I be apologising for? I like to know these things before I do.

Shall we really review the history of this kind of stuff on this board?

So many Irish rugby followers denied the level of investment form the IRFU, so many tried to ridicule this http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493 but now it's all been proven to be true, straight from the mouth of the IRFU Chief Executive.

Yes, please do, Phil. I would would really enjoy you finding a reason I should apologise for this.

I've given one above.

Munchkin wrote:What's your thoughts on this piece, Phil?

“The shareholders in each branch are the clubs, that’s the way it is. In France, someone comes in and buys the club — as in the players, the brand, the physical facilities, the whole shooting match. Gloucester, for instance, has just been sold by the Walkinshaws for around £12m, and a new owner, Martin St Quinton, has bought the controlling shares.

“Now compare that to Munster: Thomond Park is owned by the clubs and by the branch. You can’t sell that. The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU, the revenue streams aren’t sufficient to cover the costs of running the professional game — so whoever is going to invest in professional rugby in Ireland is essentially writing cheques for €1m and continue doing that until they get bored.

“What happens then? You have to find someone else to write the cheque. How many such folk are out there with that level of discretionary income, who are prepared to simply be a sugar daddy. Therein lies the difficulty. The Walkinshaw family could either have sold Gloucester as a going concern (which they did) or just sell the place and build houses.

“Whatever investment is made in Ireland, it can’t be secured against anything."

I think that it is the thought of a CE who knows the way the game is going and that Ireland have to change in order to keep up with it.

His point about the clubs being shareholders is pretty weak as it doesn't prevent Irish private ownership. It should (although clearly I am no expert on Irish company law) be possible for the branches to turn 'private' with the clubs retaining a shareholding - a la the NZ model. Of course, the NZ model also has the Union owning the player contracts.

marty2086 wrote:
So by your logic and Brownes statement, some of that 'subsidy' is prize money from Europe?

Certainly used to be.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Oh, and what would I be apologising for? I like to know these things before I do.

Shall we really review the history of this kind of stuff on this board?

So many Irish rugby followers denied the level of investment form the IRFU, so many tried to ridicule this http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493 but now it's all been proven to be true, straight from the mouth of the IRFU Chief Executive.

Yes, please do, Phil. I would would really enjoy you finding a reason I should apologise for this.

I've given one above.

The Carlos article is a load of ill thought out nonsense.

Now, what exactly has the IRFU confirmed to you that I should apologise for?

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What's your thoughts on this piece, Phil?

“The shareholders in each branch are the clubs, that’s the way it is. In France, someone comes in and buys the club — as in the players, the brand, the physical facilities, the whole shooting match. Gloucester, for instance, has just been sold by the Walkinshaws for around £12m, and a new owner, Martin St Quinton, has bought the controlling shares.

“Now compare that to Munster: Thomond Park is owned by the clubs and by the branch. You can’t sell that. The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU, the revenue streams aren’t sufficient to cover the costs of running the professional game — so whoever is going to invest in professional rugby in Ireland is essentially writing cheques for €1m and continue doing that until they get bored.

“What happens then? You have to find someone else to write the cheque. How many such folk are out there with that level of discretionary income, who are prepared to simply be a sugar daddy. Therein lies the difficulty. The Walkinshaw family could either have sold Gloucester as a going concern (which they did) or just sell the place and build houses.

“Whatever investment is made in Ireland, it can’t be secured against anything."

I think that it is the thought of a CE who knows the way the game is going and that Ireland have to change in order to keep up with it.

His point about the clubs being shareholders is pretty weak as it doesn't prevent Irish private ownership. It should (although clearly I am no expert on Irish company law) be possible for the branches to turn 'private' with the clubs retaining a shareholding - a la the NZ model. Of course, the NZ model also has the Union owning the player contracts.

And what do you think of the IRFU not owning Thomond Park?

PhilBB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:
Well, it's not a "community initiative". It's the year-in-year-out Schools Cup.

And the amateur clubs? And the women's game?

Yes, there are Schools Cups in Wales. And a women's game.

The amateur clubs? No investment from PRW into that. Just like the IRFU's €8m.

I didn't ask if they existed. That's self-evident. I asked what part the regions played in forking out so they can be run.

And Ulster Branch run, develop and contribute financially to club competitions and the clubs themselves. The regions, it seems, don't.

Out of interest, who pays for dual contracts? I assume the regions or PRW pays for part of them?

Munchkin wrote:
The Carlos article is a load of ill thought out nonsense.

Now, what exactly has the IRFU confirmed to you that I should apologise for?

The Carlos article is proven by Browne's statements today. It's well researched and proven to be accurate.

Nice contradiction in one post.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
The Carlos article is a load of ill thought out nonsense.

Now, what exactly has the IRFU confirmed to you that I should apologise for?

The Carlos article is proven by Browne's statements today. It's well researched and proven to be accurate.

Nice contradiction in one post.

It's a nonsemse. I broke the article down, over on Scarlets Fever, and demonstated why it's a nonsense. If I can find the post again I will post it here.

Now, stop avoiding. What exactly have I said on these boards, that I should apologise?

Munchkin wrote:
And what do you think of the IRFU not owning Thomond Park?

What a dumb question. Point 4 (ii) in the latest Annual Report answers that.

The Union is the clubs which is the Branch which is the Union.

The bottom of Page 39 of the Annual Report may also help you here.

Don Alfonso wrote:

I didn't ask if they existed. That's self-evident. I asked what part the regions played in forking out so they can be run.

And Ulster Branch run, develop and contribute financially to club competitions and the clubs themselves. The regions, it seems, don't.

Out of interest, who pays for dual contracts? I assume the regions or PRW pays for part of them?

How much do Ulster Branch pay? And where can I find that amount recorded? And, if it is all branch funded, what does the IRFU's €8m go on?

Dual contracts are funded 60% from the WRU and 40% from PRW employer.

Munchkin wrote:
 It's a nonsemse. I broke the article down, over on Scarlets Fever, and demonstated why it's a nonsense. If I can find the post again I will post it here.

Now, stop avoiding. What exactly have I said on these boards, that I should apologise?

I've not avoided. I've written it more than once in this page.

I look forward to reading your 'breaking down of the article'.

PhilBB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
And what do you think of the IRFU not owning Thomond Park?

What a dumb question. Point 4 (ii) in the latest Annual Report answers that.

The Union is the clubs which is the Branch which is the Union.

The bottom of Page 39 of the Annual Report may also help you here.

Why would it be dumb? Can you not read?

Thomond Park is owned by the clubs and by the branch. You can’t sell that. The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU,

Munchkin wrote:

Why would it be dumb? Can you not read?

Thomond Park is owned by the clubs and by the branch. You can’t sell that. The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU,

Did you not read the notes as I suggested you should? As you're too lazy to:

"Under a Memorandum of Understanding dated 10 December 2007, the Union entered into arrangements with the Munster Branch IRFU and Thomond Park Stadium Company Limited to redevelop the stadium at Thomond Park. As part of these arrangements, the Union advanced a loan to the Branch (note 7) and acquired a 50% interest inThomond Park Stadium Company Limited (note 8). In addition, the Union have granted an option to the Branch to acquire the freehold interest that the Union holds in Thomond Park. The option price will be based on the original cost of the grounds to the Union adjusted for in ation by reference to the Consumer Price Index from the date of the granting of the option.
This option will be exercisable by the Branch on the earlier of ten years from the date of practical completion of the stadium or by 1 January 2019.
The accumulated cost of the old stadium, less related depreciation, amounts to €3,588,105 and is included within premises and grounds above."

"The Union advanced funds to the Munster Branch in order to assist with the development of Thomond Park. The amounts advanced are secured on the Branch’s share in Thomond Park Stadium Company Limited and on the loan advanced by the Branch to that company. Interest is chargeable on the loan to the Branch based on the effective cost of funds to the Union.
The loan is to be repaid on a phased basis over the next number of years as follows:
30 April 2016
30 April 2017
30 April 2018 - 30 April 2026 (per annum) 30 April 2027
€200,000 €4,200,000 €500,000 €761,778
The loan is to be fully repaid by 30 April 2027."

"The Union has entered into lease agreements with each of the above companies to lease land on which the stadia have been redeveloped on the following terms:
Company
New Stadium Limited
Thomond Park Stadium Company Limited
Term of lease
99 years from Dec 2005
55 years from Oct 2006
Annual rent
€750,000 €9,600
The rents due became payable during the year ended April 2011 in the case of Thomond Park, and became due from May 2010 in the case of the Aviva Stadium."

PhilBB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

I didn't ask if they existed. That's self-evident. I asked what part the regions played in forking out so they can be run.

And Ulster Branch run, develop and contribute financially to club competitions and the clubs themselves. The regions, it seems, don't.

Out of interest, who pays for dual contracts? I assume the regions or PRW pays for part of them?

How much do Ulster Branch pay? And where can I find that amount recorded? And, if it is all branch funded, what does the IRFU's €8m go on?

Dual contracts are funded 60% from the WRU and 40% from PRW employer.

For someone who seems to be able to quote the IRFUs reports with ease you don't read a full page

Schedule 6: Domestic & community rugby
2014/15 2013/14 2012/13

Under 19s 104,349 114,306 83,836
Irish schoolboy team 169,698 137,548 140,428
Irish youth team 130,823 140,785 216,930
Club Ireland 71,032 76,039 70,029
Domestic competitions 284,237 223,595 238,494
General development salaries 577,996 549,263 521,036
General development expenses 63,223 91,641 86,585
Development resources 270,377 153,363 215,476
Coaching courses 218,729 243,784 217,083
Youth and schools 261,611 125,642 331,411
YDO and provincial staff 2,737,349 2,948,681 2,716,480
Clubs and schools support 1,367,726 1,174,628 1,295,319
Referee development 544,959 531,947 532,668
Leisure and community programmes 345,863 248,854 640,115
Community rugby and other funding 1,700,630 1,656,370 1,515,791
8,848,602 8,416,446 8,821,681

PhilBB wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

I didn't ask if they existed. That's self-evident. I asked what part the regions played in forking out so they can be run.

And Ulster Branch run, develop and contribute financially to club competitions and the clubs themselves. The regions, it seems, don't.

Out of interest, who pays for dual contracts? I assume the regions or PRW pays for part of them?

How much do Ulster Branch pay? And where can I find that amount recorded? And, if it is all branch funded, what does the IRFU's €8m go on?

Dual contracts are funded 60% from the WRU and 40% from PRW employer.

I don't know, man. Google it? Email them? Phone and ask them how it's split between the provincial contributions and IRFU contributions. Or just assume whatever best fits your pre-chosen narrative about the imbalance between the provinces and the regions.

marty2086 wrote:

For someone who seems to be able to quote the IRFUs reports with ease you don't read a full page

Schedule 6: Domestic & community rugby
                 2014/15 2013/14 2012/13

Under 19s 104,349 114,306 83,836
Irish schoolboy team 169,698 137,548 140,428
Irish youth team 130,823 140,785 216,930
Club Ireland 71,032 76,039 70,029
Domestic competitions 284,237 223,595 238,494
General development salaries 577,996 549,263 521,036
General development expenses 63,223 91,641 86,585
Development resources 270,377 153,363 215,476
Coaching courses 218,729 243,784 217,083
Youth and schools 261,611 125,642 331,411
YDO and provincial staff 2,737,349 2,948,681 2,716,480
Clubs and schools support 1,367,726 1,174,628 1,295,319
Referee development 544,959 531,947 532,668
Leisure and community programmes 345,863 248,854 640,115
Community rugby and other funding 1,700,630 1,656,370 1,515,791
                                                     8,848,602 8,416,446 8,821,681

Well done, genius. That's what the IRFU spends. Not what 'Ulster Branch' spend, as per my question. The bit on the IRFU was clearly rhetorical to show that the €8m obviously contributes to what the other bloke claimed 'Ulster Branch' funded.

What a complete numbnutz.

Don Alfonso wrote:
I don't know, man. Google it? Email them? Phone and ask them how it's split between the provincial contributions and IRFU contributions. Or just assume whatever best fits your pre-chosen narrative about the imbalance between the provinces and the regions.

I did email them for a copy of their Financial Report. Of course, I got no response.

You made the claim that Ulster pay for it. You can provide no evidence to show that and I can point to €8m reasons that disprove you.

I'd say that the balance of required evidence was in your court, Sunshine.

Else, you're just another bluffer who has been found out.

I'm sorry, did I not just read an article that said the provinces run the amateur game?

Also, by your logic, the regions can';t contribute towards the dual contracts, because the payments the WRU makes "disprove" that. Because, as we know, it is simply impossible for two (slightly) different bodies to be contributing money to the same thing.

Keyboard warrior gone to sharpen cyber-sword. Meh.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

For someone who seems to be able to quote the IRFUs reports with ease you don't read a full page

Schedule 6: Domestic & community rugby
                 2014/15 2013/14 2012/13

Under 19s 104,349 114,306 83,836
Irish schoolboy team 169,698 137,548 140,428
Irish youth team 130,823 140,785 216,930
Club Ireland 71,032 76,039 70,029
Domestic competitions 284,237 223,595 238,494
General development salaries 577,996 549,263 521,036
General development expenses 63,223 91,641 86,585
Development resources 270,377 153,363 215,476
Coaching courses 218,729 243,784 217,083
Youth and schools 261,611 125,642 331,411
YDO and provincial staff 2,737,349 2,948,681 2,716,480
Clubs and schools support 1,367,726 1,174,628 1,295,319
Referee development 544,959 531,947 532,668
Leisure and community programmes 345,863 248,854 640,115
Community rugby and other funding 1,700,630 1,656,370 1,515,791
                                                     8,848,602 8,416,446 8,821,681

Well done, genius. That's what the IRFU spends. Not what 'Ulster Branch' spend, as per my question. The bit on the IRFU was clearly rhetorical to show that the €8m obviously contributes to what the other bloke claimed 'Ulster Branch' funded.

What a complete numbnutz.

Not all of us are blessed with your mind reading abilities and very mature reverting to name calling

PhilBB wrote:
You made the claim that Ulster pay for it. You can provide no evidence to show that and I can point to €8m reasons that disprove you.

I'd say that the balance of required evidence was in your court, Sunshine.

Else, you're just another bluffer who has been found out.

Given you don't know the figure of what is spent on the domestic game you lack the evidence to say that the IRFU figure is the full amount spent so you lack the evidence to back up your claims but again you revert to name calling.

FYI The leagues in Ulster are funded through Ulster Rugby

Simple comparison, proves nothing.

But food for thought:  staff listed at Cardiff Blues and Ulster Rugby involved in non-professional or community rugby.

CARDIFF:
Nadine Griffiths - Community Manager- Cardiff Blues
Dan Parry - Rugby Officer
Dan Jenkins -Rugby Officer
(And five WRU employees)


ULSTER:
DOMESTIC RUGBY OPERATIONS
Barry Willis, Rugby Operations Manager
Paul Whitten, Rugby Operations Coordinator
David Johnston, Club and Community Development Officer
Kerry Spence, Volunteer & Policy Development Officer
Lesley McGaughey, Administration Officer
Jill McCullough, Administration Officer
Eleanor McGlue, Administration Officer
Julie Darragh, Administration Officer


DOMESTIC RUGBY DEVELOPMENT
Jamie Turkington, Rugby Development Manager
Chris Shields, Fitness Education Manager
David Wilkinson, Referee Development Manager (has an irfu.ie email address, so perhaps paid for centrally by IRFU?)
Chris Galway, Regional Rugby Lead (North East)
Ricky Huey, Regional Rugby Lead (North)
Darren McGuigan, Regional Rugby Lead (South)
Joy Sparkes, Regional Rugby Lead (South East)
Neil Alcorn, Rugby Development Officer (North East)
Shaun Bloomfield, Rugby Development Officer (North)
Zoe Templeton, Rugby Development Officer (South)
Jonathon Graham, Rugby Development Officer (South East)
Neal Johnston, Female Rugby Officer

Oh its the paranoid twaddle again

Lets do this really slowly for the hard of thinking

All pro 12 unions have the same revenue streams
Thus all unions have broadly similar budgets. all teams in the pro 12 have broadly similar budgets

Comparing spending between different set ups is almost impossible. For example in Wales the regions only fund themselves and some of their wage bill is paid centrally. Other countries this is different. Welsh regions can deficit fund. Scottish pro teams cannot. Often on here we see the welsh playing budget compared to the total irish teams budget. Nothing like a fair comparison. The welsh regions playing budget is smaller than the irish teams total busdget because it includes =far less - like managemnt saleries, like development squads, like academies etc

If you really think the irish get more per team ask yourself where the rest of the money that comes into wales goes?

Its just utter paranoid twaddle. All the unions in the pro 12 have te same revenue streams, all the pro 12 teams have broadly similar budgets.

There was talk of the Newport Gwent Dragons not even reaching their agreed minimum spend on their squad, so I'm not sure all pro12 teams spend the same.