Wales and Warburton

From ESPN:

Wales will be without captain Sam Warburton when they face England at Twickenham on Sunday.

Warburton has not played since injuring his shoulder against the Ospreys on April 30.

He is expected to regain his fitness for Wales' first Test against New Zealand on June 11 but this Sunday's match appears to have come too soon.

"This weekend will be too early for Sam," Wales forwards coach Robin McBryde said.

"But he is taking part in parts in the rugby, he's done everything bar contact work really so he is getting much stronger, feeling much better about himself and that's evident in the way that he has carried himself and contributed in the meetings."

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/15705708/wales-captain-sam-warburton-set-miss-england-match-twickenham

It's the bit in bold that gets me. He's the only openside in the squad. It's blydi imperative he regains his fitness in time. We're playing New Zealand in New Zealand, for crying out loud. He'll have to play, even if he's not fully fit - but that's okay, he's carrying himself well and contributing in meetings!

I still cannot believe that they've only selected one openside for the tour. It's lunacy. It's not as if we don't have good alternatives in his position.

Warburton has an uncanny knack of being injured frequently but fit when Wales really need him. I wonder how much longer he can keep it going, though.

A bit daft to travel with only one openside... but then England have been travelling and playing with none for years. Apparently.

It makes it worse that the only openside they're taking is known to be injury-prone. He wasn't fully fit during the Six Nations, but they still played him. Now I'd understand it more if it was Faletau and there was a huge drop down to the next candidate, but even though Tipuric's injured we have at least two very good opensides available. Yes, they're inexperienced at Test level, but surely they'd be a better bet than a blindside?

It depends a lot on whether Gatland and McBryde have a strategy like Eddie's that relies on having two guys capable of doing a spoiling job, rather than throwing some inexperienced players into one of the hardest environments for a rookie player.

I thought King and Moriarty had both played a bit at 7, though?

Still, only a bit, and we're touring New Zealand.

I guess it will be King at openside next week though still not convinced by him. When you think they are taking Faletau then Moriarty, King and Turnbull all of which are more suited to the 6 or 8 role it would have been more sensible to drop one of them for someone like Cudd, Jenkins or Davies.

Lydiate has played 7 as well for Wales but he's hardly in the best form at the moment in his specialist positon so shipping him to 7 wouldn't be the the best answer.

I am pretty sure Faletau could play there quite easily so maybe Moriarty at 8 and Faletau at 7 could be an option.

I've played up enough about Cement Head not picking outside of his chosen lot. This England game would've been perfect to try a proper 7. Absolute farce. I can't see Warburton lasting the tour anyway, knowing how susceptible he is to knocks. Three tests in a row will really test him and all we can offer is a 6.5 now and against the best team in the World too. Well done Cement.

I will probably be hounded for this.but to me Warburton always seems to get injured before a b8ig match/test.

The game against England, the 3 test in New Zealand. it is almost like nerves have kicked in and he is affraid of playing.

Who is the best player to take his place? i mean what with tipuric being ruled out.

Oh Christ.

For me it should be James Davies in the squad and starting at 7, paired with Moriarty and Faletau. King on the bench.

I think Davies has real star quality.

It doesn't say much for Gatland's faith in Davies and Ellis Jenkins that he'd rather play a blindside instead of either of them.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It doesn't say much for Gatland's faith in Davies and Ellis Jenkins that he'd rather play a blindside instead of either of them.

NZ is not the place to go experimental rugby wise.

When is the team announcement?

fa0019 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It doesn't say much for Gatland's faith in Davies and Ellis Jenkins that he'd rather play a blindside instead of either of them.

NZ is not the place to go experimental rugby wise.

Playing a blindside at 7 in a Test match in New Zealand would be experimentation.

Cubby is off with the Olympic 7s team I believe, give Cudd a go.

munkian wrote:Cubby is off with the Olympic 7s team I believe, give Cudd a go.

It's not going to happen. You know that, I know that, Cudd himself probably knows that.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It doesn't say much for Gatland's faith in Davies and Ellis Jenkins that he'd rather play a blindside instead of either of them.

NZ is not the place to go experimental rugby wise.

I'm not sure it's the place to play a blindside at 7 in a Test match, either.

I actually have been impressed by Moriarty. I think he is another 6.5 type Lewis Moody type. I don't think it would be a big risk. Against NZ I think those guys are better options than out and out 7s anyhow. Warburton himself is probably a 6.5.

SA have played Burger for years as an openside and he is more like a 6.2-6.3.

Sorry, I edited my post after you quoted me.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Sorry, I edited my post after you quoted me.

I think its far less experimentation than a debutant or new on the scene chap. Moriarity is young and only has a couple of caps but he does look the real deal to me.

Moriarty does look good, and he did well filling in for Tipuric against Italy in the Six Nations, but you don't need me to tell you there's a difference between Italy in Cardiff and the All Blacks at Eden Park!

Always saw Moriarty as a 6, emergency fill in 8 and not much of a 7 personally.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Always saw Moriarty as a 6, emergency fill in 8 and not much of a 7 personally.

Trying to compare him to players is difficult. He's not a A typical type player.

The closest I have come to is Lewis Moody and Schalk Burger. He isn't a clear cut fetcher but he has the dog about him and I think that's what makes him versatile. If someone said where he played the best description would be "backrow forward".

Yeah, I'd just say 6.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, I'd just say 6.

These days I'd say the modern 6 is 6'5, 105kg and a lineout option like Croft, Wood, Kaino, Harley etc. I imagine thats why people suggest Maro to be a 6 in the long term... at the moment I think 4 is his spot as as long as England can cope with a little less grunt at 4 I think its beneficial.

Anyhow each to their own.

Yeah, I'd just base it on how good he is at the position personally rather than his size. He's much better at 6. Itoje is a bit different as the talk of 6 was more about the feeling that Jones would be looking for a new guy there and Englands relative strength in depth at lock. I would be surprised now if he was moved back there long term, though I'm sure there'll be a time he covers it temporarily. May well be an option for Gatalnd in the Lions. Itoje lacking grunt...ok. Again may be the fact you don't watch much prem.

Anyone know when the team gets announced?

maestegmafia wrote:Anyone know when the team gets announced?

Tomorrow

wayne wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Anyone know when the team gets announced?

Tomorrow

Thanks mate

Lots of supposition on the usual websites about who's available and unavailable but hadn't read anything about when who was actually playing would be announced.

Ah maes, how was your holiday? Picked up a nice tan I hope?

Still not convinced by Moriarty. Think Warburton is a big blow.

fa0019 are Wood,Croft and Harley really the benchmark of international 6s?

A pack needs balance.

Croft and Wood at the peak of their powers were very good.

Yes they had their periods of good rugby but they aren't going to go down in the pantheon of great backrowers.

The most important player for Wales is still Faletau. If they lose him too..... could get messy.

Don't know much about James Davies but is that correct on his wiki page? Less than 15 stone!?

If so won't be easy physically taking on England even without the Saracens and Exeter players.

If Faletau goes down, who's next? I heard good things about Dan Baker but he's fallen off the radar a bit.

bluestonevedder wrote:I heard good things about Dan Baker but he's fallen off the radar.

That's how he got injured.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I heard good things about Dan Baker but he's fallen off the radar.

That's how he got injured.

Good carrier but can't/won't tackle, waste of a NDC

munkian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I heard good things about Dan Baker but he's fallen off the radar.

That's how he got injured.

Good carrier but can't/won't tackle, waste of a NDC

Excellent!

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, I'd just say 6.

These days I'd say the modern 6 is 6'5, 105kg and a lineout option like Croft, Wood, Kaino, Harley etc. I imagine thats why people suggest Maro to be a 6 in the long term... at the moment I think 4 is his spot as as long as England can cope with a little less grunt at 4 I think its beneficial.

Anyhow each to their own.

Good criteria but I guess it depends on the rest of the pack. Also, the only good all-around 6 on your list is Kaino - none of the others can do what he can do, neither can many other blind-side flankers.



Warburton is our best 7 so if fit then for me he plays. He isn't fit though so I agree that there should be another open-side in the squad. Even if Tipuric was available I'd opt for someone else. I guess Gatland sees Moriarty as back-row cover. When it comes to the first test against NZ and Warburton is fit he should be on the bench, not starting.

Warburtons injuries are mounting up over the past couple of years. He always seems to be out for large periods of the season only to break down again after a few games. Shame he cannot have the summer off to fully recover because I bet he won't last the whole tour..

And there's a Lions tour next summer, so he won't get a rest then either. Is Gatland going to manage these players with the World Cup in mind, or will he continue to run them into the ground?