F1 German GP Thread - Contains Qualifying & Race Spoilers as usual

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Ain't doing it no one reads it anyway

[Guest]

At this rate, good chance Merc dominate until 2021. I actually laughed off the thought of Hamilton challenging Schumacher's seven titles, but as time goes by, it doesn't actually seem to absurd. Of course, we still have to watch the race unfold, and see how the long runs play out, but it does appear Lewis is in prime position to land no.5. If it is a complete domination this year, the media will go to town, and I would expect it to force Mercedes to recruit Ricciardo for next year. Bottas looks a beaten man already (15th on the grid, and already using his second gearbox)

As for the rest, not much to talk about. McLaren are just in no-man's land, Force India are in trouble, Sirotkin looks awful, and I'm predicting Kubica in that seat by Barcelona.

[GSC]

At this point it's more a question of does he want to drive that long than whether he can win them.

The car is well clear of the rest of the field and Merc are content to put #2 drivers in the other car. There's no competition.

Be interesting to see if there's any kind of response, putting F1 behind a paywall at a time when the product is as bad as it's ever been might not be recoverable

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sebastian Vettel wins the Australian GP for the second straight season. That doesn't tell the full story. Ferrari and Vettel where massively fortunate with the timing of the virtual safety car after Grosjean's Haas stopped on track with an unfitted tyre post pit stop.

Vettel
Hamilton
Raikkonen
Riccardo
Alonso
Verstappen
Hulkenberg
Bottas
Vandorne
Sainz Jr

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Verstappen was passed by Magnusson into T1 and it comprised his race whereby he spun whilst crashing the Haas. Unfortunately for KMag he also suffered an unfitted tyre post pit post.

[CaledonianCraig]

Lucky win for Vettel. It seemed that even with DrS overtaking was very difficult. We saw Bottas right up behind slower cars for muktiple laps as well as Verstappen and yet they still couldn't overtake.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Lucky win for Vettel. It seemed that even with DrS overtaking was very difficult. We saw Bottas right up behind slower cars for muktiple laps as well as Verstappen and yet they still couldn't overtake.

Verstappen damaged the underside of his car during his spin according to Red Bull.

[CaledonianCraig]

Lucky win for Vettel. It seemed that even with DrS overtaking was very difficult. We saw Bottas right up behind slower cars for muktiple laps as well as Verstappen and yet they still couldn't overtake.

Verstappen damaged the underside of his car during his spin according to Red Bull.

Yes but Bottas (no damage) couldn't overtake. Before his damage Verstappen couldn't overtake the Haas and Ricciardo toiled.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Lucky win for Vettel. It seemed that even with DrS overtaking was very difficult. We saw Bottas right up behind slower cars for muktiple laps as well as Verstappen and yet they still couldn't overtake.

Verstappen damaged the underside of his car during his spin according to Red Bull.

Yes but Bottas (no damage) couldn't overtake. Before his damage Verstappen couldn't overtake the Haas and Ricciardo toiled.

Both Mercedes struggled in the turbulent air and that's a trend for the last few years.

Ferrari and Haas where near the top of the speedtraps and red bull are down on straight line speed. So no great surprise

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good to see the best driver in F1 back on top

[Guest]

Never liked the VSC, and the way it can be exploited, and determine a race result. To compound that, they then drag out the actual SC, once the damage, and race winning manoeuvre by Vettel, has already been done.

Vettel massively fortunate today, and he wins the battle. He won’t win the war though, as the Merc looks in a different league in clean air.

As for RB, season is a write off. Engine is pony. Tough day for Haas, but extremely promising pace shown.

[GSC]

At least it wasn't a predictable result even if cars still can't follow in dirty air

Ferrari closer in race trim but you would suspect Lewis had more in the tank. On the other hand, looks like the Merc still has worse tyre wear than the Ferrari.

RB should be closer on a track less orientated to engine power.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Ferrari seem to have reasonable race pace with Kimi, Vettel was slip sliding around. Hamilton used max power and obviously he would've been miles down the road. But bearing in mind these engines have to last 7 races I doubt Mercedes can use max power too frequently. Ferrari will obviously favour Vettel, but Kimi could be dangerous in Bahrain and china

[dyrewolfe]

Well at least Vettel was gracious enough to acknowledge he got a big slice of luck today. But Ferrari won't be able to count on VSCs too often.

In clear air Mercedes are still a way in front, but I'd like them to compromise their design philosophy just a bit, so they don't struggle so much when they have to follow other cars. Wouldn't have made too much difference in Melbourne, but would help on tracks better suited for overtaking. As well as compromised aero, it also looks like Merc have fuel & cooling issues too.

Red Bull looking the best of the Renault teams. Ricciardo put in some blistering laps towards the end, but like most teams, I'm guessing they can only use max power for a limited time, if they're to make them last 6-7 races.

McLaren still need to find some chassis & aero improvements & hope Renault can squeeze some extra horses out of the power unit. At least they got some points on the board.

Absolutely gutted for Haas. Grosjean & Magnussen were looking at a decent points haul. Can't believe the pit crew managed to botch both stops.

[dyrewolfe]

Never liked the VSC, and the way it can be exploited, and determine a race result. To compound that, they then drag out the actual SC, once the damage, and race winning manoeuvre by Vettel, has already been done.

Vettel massively fortunate today, and he wins the battle. He won’t win the war though, as the Merc looks in a different league in clean air.

As for RB, season is a write off. Engine is pony. Tough day for Haas, but extremely promising pace shown.

Matter of fact Ricciardo set the fastest lap of the race...but like most teams, I'm guessing they can only run max power mode for a limited time. Both he and Verstappen would have made up more places on a better circuit.

[Mr Bounce]

Regardless of who you're a fan of, I do not believe that Vettel (or anyone else who pitted during the VSC) should have been allowed to give full throttle on leaving the pits whilst everyone else was restricted. It's a stupid part of the rules and should be rewritten. Clever bit of work by Vettel, but it isn't racing in my book - just interpretation of the regulations.

They really need to sort out overtaking in F1. That was ridiculous. Fully expect to see another snoozefest in Bahrain (remember the 2010 championship decider where Alonso was stuck behind Petrov and Webber was similarly delayed?).

[dyrewolfe]

Looks like the stage is set for conflict...

F1 Bosses to reveal sport's future at Bahrain GP

Liberty and the FIA will present their vision of F1's future at Bahrain, which has the following general aims:

- reduce the gap in prize money earnings between the top and bottom of the field

- cut the £300m+ budgets of the top teams to about half that.

- simpler, cheaper engines that reduce the gap in performance between the best and worst, and open F1 to new entrants.

- simplify the technical rules to reduce cost by standardising parts that are perceived to have minimal effect on both performance and the show.

Needless to say the top teams (Mercedes & Ferrari in particular) are totally against anything that changes the engine formula, reduces development budgets, or prize money...in short anything that threatens their current status as top dogs.

Hope Liberty have the courage to tell them to take it or leave it, as F1 is just stagnating horribly with the current status quo.

You can't achieve drastic changes without...drastic changes. If the top teams are too blind to see what's wrong with F1 (or too selfish to change willingly) it needs to be forced on them.

[GSC]

Renault are also against changes to the engine format just to interrupt that narrative

[GSC]

Also to expand - the engine changes aren't to disrupt the running order, its to make it easier and cheaper for new suppliers to enter the sport after the kicking Hondas gotten. The existing supplier are firmly united in opposition because they want to standardise and simplify the part of the new engines that is actually cutting edge. Renaults proposal is to keep the engines but raise the fuel limit and rpm limit.

Rest of it is kinda whatever. The "salary cap" idea has kicked around forever but realistically its pretty nigh on impossible to effectively enforce so nobodys ever done it.

Don't really see any of these having a significant impact on the 2 main issues F1 has, namely that the races are boring and the results are predictable. And I kinda ideologically resent the idea of an F1 where teams run mostly template cars despite the last sentence.

[dyrewolfe]

Also to expand - the engine changes aren't to disrupt the running order, its to make it easier and cheaper for new suppliers to enter the sport after the kicking Hondas gotten. The existing supplier are firmly united in opposition because they want to standardise and simplify the part of the new engines that is actually cutting edge. Renaults proposal is to keep the engines but raise the fuel limit and rpm limit.

But engine changes inevitably mean more R&D is needed to develop new power units...meaning more expense & less certainty about what the new pecking order will be. Also the MGU-H primarily helps boost the efficiency of the engine. Important given the fuel restrictions, but doesn't effect the ultimate performance of the engine. I would imagine they would increase the fuel allowance to compensate for the reduced efficiency.

Renault's proposal does nothing to reduce the development costs...especially for new entrants, so is actually pretty ridiculous.

Rest of it is kinda whatever. The "salary cap" idea has kicked around forever but realistically its pretty nigh on impossible to effectively enforce so nobodys ever done it.

Yeah - they did try it before...2007-08 season IIRC but found it was impossible to police it effectively. No idea how they would make it work, but Liberty do come from a background where salary caps are enforced in other sports. Maybe they have some new ideas?

Don't really see any of these having a significant impact on the 2 main issues F1 has, namely that the races are boring and the results are predictable. And I kinda ideologically resent the idea of an F1 where teams run mostly template cars despite the last sentence.

From the looks of it, these ideas are primarily aimed at making the sport more competitive financially and closing the gap between the existing teams, creating a more level playing field...which will hopefully encourage new entrants in the future.

Best way to improve the on-track spectacle is to revert to ground-effect aerodynamics, like they used back in the 1970s, where the bulk of the downforce is created by the floor of the car. Small front & rear wings for fine tuning...way less wake turbulence...easier for cars to follow closely...more opportunities for overtaking. Also get rid of DRS. Alex Wurz mentioned this last year in a GPDA article he wrote.

And I kinda ideologically resent the idea of an F1 where teams run mostly template cars despite the last sentence.

*cough*Haas...2017 Ferrari*cough* Toro Rosso shared an awful lot of parts with RB until a couple of seasons ago. Its also pretty common for teams to buy parts from other teams...gearboxes, ECUs, mapping software, among other things. Do you also resent the fact that most of the teams buy their engines from other teams?

Template cars are used in a lot of series...IndyCar, NASCAR, GP2 and most of the junior formulas. A lot of people also think they're a lot more exciting & unpredictable.

Ideologically I don't much like it either, as it does go against the ethos of F1, being a purist engineering series, but it strayed from that path quite a while ago, so it doesn't actually upset me that much now.

[GSC]

Junior teams are what they are. I'd rather they weren't in the sport but its not a major issue. Theres a difference between that and every team running a lot of stock parts.

I really can't see it causing that much uncertainty. Mercedes still have the best infrastructure and staff designing and building the engine. Thats why they're streets ahead of the others year on year. It might be cheaper for new suppliers to enter but its not going to immediately jump them close to the Mercedes PU's output.

Anyway Hamiltons taking 5 places for a new gearbox

[CaledonianCraig]

Well the current situation can't be allowed to continue as we know it is counter-productive to exciting racing.

At the end of the day do the big teams not want change purely for selfish reasons as in to keep the status quo where they dominate? Or do people think they are genuinely against the change because they have better ideas for improving F1 that we haven't heard about.

[GSC]

The engine stuff isn't the top teams, its the engine suppliers being pissed that the cutting edge engine they've spent hundreds of millions developing, and actually getting a benefit from being replaced with an engine they have to spend more money developing again that doesn't have nearly as much real life potential use.

If there are changes to the regs to force cars that can follow and battle then I suspect everyone will be all for it, whats proposed outside of engine changes is largely PR guff so Liberty can look like the good guys.

[CaledonianCraig]

But lets be honest here engine regs changes have been happening throughout the history of F1 so its not as if manufacturers are not being asked to do anything new. The big key here is whether the changes proposed go far enough or are coming in the right areas to make F1 races more interesting and unpredictable with more teams being able to compete for podiums and race wins.

I'd like a regulation where each team are allowed to identify (to the officials only) one innovation per design. As long as that innovation does not infringe any rules they should be able to keep it. That way if one of the lesser teams really comes up with a superb innovation it could catapult them into contention.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Lewis Hamilton has received a 5 place grid penalty for gearbox, after the previous one suffered a hydraulic leak

[GSC]

How do you define an innovation? If I add an extra piece to my front wing can I never change it again? Seems pretty unenforcable and teams being limited in developing the car doesn't seem a positive to me.

The engine supplier pushed for these engines in the first place, the old V8s pretty much had no value beyond F1. Understandable they'd be pissed if their main benefit they poured that much money into went away. And in reality, Mercedes have been the best team at designing and developing the engine year on year. Its more likely a reset of the engine formula would push their advantage, as in 2014, than mix it up.

F1 needs a few teams at the top that are equally matched enough to not make the championship a foregone conclusion. Not mediocrity for all.

[GSC]

Verstappen barriers it in Q1

[GSC]

Stroll last in Q1, more than slightly embarrassing

[Guest]

Always damage limitation for Hamilton this weekend. Should be comfortable for Vettel tomorrow. Impressive from Gasly.

[CaledonianCraig]

How do you define an innovation? If I add an extra piece to my front wing can I never change it again? Seems pretty unenforcable and teams being limited in developing the car doesn't seem a positive to me.

The engine supplier pushed for these engines in the first place, the old V8s pretty much had no value beyond F1. Understandable they'd be pissed if their main benefit they poured that much money into went away. And in reality, Mercedes have been the best team at designing and developing the engine year on year. Its more likely a reset of the engine formula would push their advantage, as in 2014, than mix it up.

F1 needs a few teams at the top that are equally matched enough to not make the championship a foregone conclusion. Not mediocrity for all.

Innovations such as the stand out feature the BAR brought to their car that catapukted them from nowhere to a world championship. It would be quite easily defined to the officials with full description of it and what it does. It needn't mean the end of adding aero parts to front wings as every team does that anyway unless a specific team feel they have a far out there part and wish to use that as their innovation. It would certainly stop the cars being too identikit too.

[GSC]

Seems kinda woolly. More like "if you develop something good, you have to mostly down tools". Moreover, when these things do happen, they're highly likely to be built into the car over the winter rather than being an upgrade package if they are that significant.

[CaledonianCraig]

Seems kinda woolly. More like "if you develop something good, you have to mostly down tools". Moreover, when these things do happen, they're highly likely to be built into the car over the winter rather than being an upgrade package if they are that significant.

So they are built into the car in the winter? We know teams are great at keeping their secrets guarded and the only people that would be told of it would be FIA officials. Upgrade packages would still be there for other parts of the car - that wouldn't change. Innovations do work but are largely outlawed in F1 hence the kind of boring nature of it. The last time a team got away with a big innovation it really shook things up with a team coming from out of the shadows to take both F1 titles proving it does have potential to shake things up.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Stroll is so crap and the delusional moron thinks he's going to win an argument with Villeneuve. Stroll will do well to see out the season

[GSC]

So what, you can only add one "innovation" to the car over the winter? Essentially stopping from rebuilding from the ground up if your car is terrible. Seems more likely to keep the strong teams strong.

Even then its vastly overplaying the impact of this.

[CaledonianCraig]

So what, you can only add one "innovation" to the car over the winter? Essentially stopping from rebuilding from the ground up if your car is terrible. Seems more likely to keep the strong teams strong.

Even then its vastly overplaying the impact of this.

One main innovation that is a stand out feature unique to that team. It doesn't stop them tweaking aero parts on wings etc and it wouldn't stop them working on other parts of the car - the BAR innovation was evidence of that.

[GSC]

So I can only design my car with one unique feature, the uniqueness to be defined by some arbitrary guideline that probably becomes entirely subjective and rolls us back to the good old days when Red Bull had to demonstrate their front wing didn't flex too much at every race.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Red Bull out of luck in Bahrain. Verstappen far too aggressive bangs into Hamilton and suffers a puncture. Riccardo with a mechanical failure

[CaledonianCraig]

So I can only design my car with one unique feature, the uniqueness to be defined by some arbitrary guideline that probably becomes entirely subjective and rolls us back to the good old days when Red Bull had to demonstrate their front wing didn't flex too much at every race.

No you can design your car however you want as long as it is within FIA regulations - all innovative if you wish. The one innovation I speak of would be one that steps outwith design regulations be it a triple diffuser or some new form of technical innovation.

[GSC]

Great finish, Vettel with some bottle to hold off Bottas on dead tyres

[Guest]

Always felt Bottas wouldn’t have the ruthless streak to make that move. Great drive from Gasly

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good to see the best driver in F1 back on top

And again.

[GSC]

Only really gave himself one bite at the cherry with a lockup 3 laps at the end taking him out of DRS. Thought about it, but that would've ended 2 races.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Vettel was dead duck on that last lap. Made a slight error on turn 1 but Bottas lacks that extra 1% that would've given him the courage to win the race. Bottas is a second driver.

Hats off to Gasly, it's between him and Sainz for the Red Bull in 2019.

Hope the Ferrari mechanic is ok after he was injured during Kimi's second stop

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Hamilton watching the replayed calling Verstappen a d!ckhead. Hilarious

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Also a noteworthy mention for Marcus Ericsson, p9 and in my opinion the best race of his career. It's early doors but he's putting it on the very highly rated Ferrari protégé Charles LeClerc.

[GSC]

Don't really care to watch the replay after twitter suggesting a broken leg

[dyrewolfe]

Well that was a pretty exciting race, all things considered. Mercedes tried to out-strategise Ferrari by going for harder tyres...and it almost worked. Bottas really just needed another 2-3 laps, I reckon, to pull off the win.

Decent drive by Valtteri. If he'd just been able to claw back more time sooner, he could have been on the top step of the podium. Good damage-limitation by Lewis...I think continually running into traffic scuppered any hopes of getting in the frame for the win.

Nice to see Vettel have to work for a win. Was a relatively routine race until the latter stages, when Ferrari realised they'd have to abandon their original 2-stop strategy, keep him out there and just pray he could hang on. Gutted for Kimi...funny how whenever there's any bad luck going round, he seems to cop it. Also hope the guy he inadvertently ran over makes a full recovery from his fractured leg.

Absolute disaster for Red Bull, after looking like they could be on for a decent points haul. First double DNF for something like 8 years? Max's retirement self-inflicted after a botched overtake resulted in a puncture & damaged differential. Ricciardo's car just decided it was going to stop working.

Good to see McLaren make amends for their awful quali - both cars coming home in the points.

Shock / drive of the day has to be Pierre Gasly, bringing his Honda-powered Toro Rosso home in 4th. The Honda power unit is definitely showing reliability & power. Must be a few people banging their heads against the walls in the McLaren garage.

Move of the day for my money was Hamilton's triple-overtake, breezing past Alonso on the main straight, before diving up the inside of the duelling Ocon & Hulkenberg into the first corner.

[dyrewolfe]

Good to see the luckiest driver in F1 back on top

And again.

FIFY.

Don't worry...his luck will run out sooner rather than later.

[GSC]

No sympathy for Verstappen. Outbraked himself, left no room. His fault.

[Guest]

Pretty much deja vu so far in Aus & Bahrain, as to what unfolded in 2017. Vettel maximising, and Hamilton being hampered, firstly by the VSC & now the gearbox penalty. Hamilton needs a clean weekend in China to kickstart his season.

As for Max, nothing new. Win it, or bin it driver right now. Interesting to see how TR fare going forwards, with RB keeping tabs on that Honda engine

[Mr Bounce]

Think the season has now started properly. A race I enjoyed! Lots of great overtaking (thank you Lewis for that 3-car blitz), some good racing and as stated above, Vettel really having to work for the win. I have a feeling though that had that been Hamilton, Alonso or either of the two Red Bull drivers behind Seb, they would have got past him. Bottas is a little bit too "safety-first" for a stand-out top-drawer racer. Think Daniel Ricciardo might be checking if Mercedes' seat is a good fit for him.

Very impressed by Gasly today, also by Magnusson, and it has to be said - also a great drive by Ericsson. It's good to see that the midfield teams are closely matched and picking points off each other at every race. It should be an interesting season.

Very sorry to see the Ferrari mechanic get injured. Hope he recovers well and doesn't want for anything. I would imagine that their healthcare package is extremely good given the dangerous nature of the work they do.

I would love to see someone different other than Seb or Lewis take the next race in China to spice things up a bit.

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