Yet another Whingefest

by **LondonTiger** Tue 02 May 2017, 10:44 am

This thread was trashed, will try again.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 10:52 am

Looks like Coles, Read and kaino could all be missing for the ABs.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 11:02 am

Do NZ have much back up at 10? If Barrett is injured is the back up Cruden? Who is next in line Donald? I think Slade no longer plays in NZ.

Maybe McKensie?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 02 May 2017, 11:08 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Do NZ have much back up at 10? If Barrett is injured is the back up Cruden? Who is next in line Donald? I think Slade no longer plays in NZ.

Sopoaga and Mo'unga are next cabs off the rank after Cruden, both are in decent form. Damien McKenzie and Jordie Barrett would be utility bolters after that - Donald is mostly playing 12 this year

by Taylorman Tue 02 May 2017, 11:12 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Do NZ have much back up at 10? If Barrett is injured is the back up Cruden? Who is next in line Donald? I think Slade no longer plays in NZ.

Maybe McKensie?

Yea Cruden, then probably Mckenzie. Sapoagas also injured.
Think Donald was more a Henry creation and its not like Hansen to draw on that far back, preferring to continually put his trust in potential and building depth.
Marty Banks might be a longshot but certainly Barrett is key, far and away the best in NZ at the mo, his ability to find space off run, kick or pass is unparalleled.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 02 May 2017, 11:22 am

Taylorman wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Do NZ have much back up at 10? If Barrett is injured is the back up Cruden? Who is next in line Donald? I think Slade no longer plays in NZ.

Maybe McKensie?

Yea Cruden, then probably Mckenzie. Sapoagas also injured.
Think Donald was more a Henry creation and its not like Hansen to draw on that far back, preferring to continually put his trust in potential and building depth.
Marty Banks might be a longshot but certainly Barrett is key, far and away the best in NZ at the mo, his ability to find space off run, kick or pass is unparalleled.

McKenzie's not really getting game time at 10 unfortunately (he probably won the SunWolves match from fullback on his own at the weekend) so Mo'unga probably edges him. As a Tasman fan I'd love to see Marty Banks get a shot. But it'd mean NZ playing Warrenball.

But globally for #10s it's Barrett first, daylight second currently

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 12:10 pm

I heard Hansen sees McKensie as a possible 9.

by Geordie Tue 02 May 2017, 12:14 pm

Jack Nowell was top class this weekend.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 12:16 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jack Nowell was top class this weekend.

Nowell is the Lions' best winger IMO.

by Geordie Tue 02 May 2017, 12:18 pm

If he keeps that form up, then he will be fighting for a starting spot that's for sure.

very impressive.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 12:26 pm

His is pretty much good at everything as far as I can see.

by Scottrf Tue 02 May 2017, 1:02 pm

Yep, most complete winger in the NH.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 02 May 2017, 2:37 pm

Some players thrive on Lions tours. I can see Nowell coming into his own. He's got the skills but he's got the right attitude too.

by Geordie Tue 02 May 2017, 3:33 pm

Hes also got a terrific work rate and will go looking for the ball.

If the lions have some bruisers hitting tacklers... Nowell could be one to make the most of it.

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 3:36 pm

Yeah Id say Nowell will start the first test. He does seem to have the right attitude. The only think going against him is he isnt the biggest guy in rugby.

by majesticimperialman Tue 02 May 2017, 3:39 pm

Still cannot understand why AWJ and Warburton got selected for the Lions, carrying the injuries they have.

by **rodders** Tue 02 May 2017, 3:42 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Still cannot understand why AWJ and Warburton got selected for the Lions, carrying the injuries they have.

Really I'd have thought that was pretty obvious....

by GunsGermsV2 Tue 02 May 2017, 3:44 pm

by hugehandoff Tue 02 May 2017, 4:00 pm

LondonTiger - many thanks for this as really useful.

Selection debates are for another thread - this is all about form and fitness. Great that Kruis is playing again and hopefully he will be ready to tour in good time. Faletau as well...gives is good options. AWJ needs to get back on the paddock as very hard to prove fitness and form just in NZ. How did Moriaty play for Glos?

by wayne Tue 02 May 2017, 4:06 pm

Perhaps some can now stop frothing at the mouth, according to our Defence Coach (Ospreys) Brad Davis, AWJ is liable to make the Selection criteria for our weekend game against the Scarlets. The Fail (Western Mail) ran an article over the weekend, saying that Steve Borthwick had visited him in order to judge his condition, there is also another article in IIRC the BEEB where AWJ said he was relieved to be ready for the Tour. That was out there in the middle of last week at the latest.

by Guest Tue 02 May 2017, 4:28 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Still cannot understand why AWJ and Warburton got selected for the Lions, carrying the injuries they have.

Nothing wrong with Warburton. Just being wrapped in cotton wool.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:06 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Still cannot understand why AWJ and Warburton got selected for the Lions, carrying the injuries they have.

Course you don't and you never will

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 5:08 pm

Serious point though. With 4 teams worth of players to choose from loads of quality why pick injured players?

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:10 pm

Because of their class, leadership, quality, form and Lions experience.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 5:14 pm

The last 2 don't matter at all given they have no form as they're injured and lions experience from 4 years ago means jot. Class and quality possibly the same thing is fair enough but we have more than enough in fit players elsewhere. Leadership...well. As long as Biggar is playing jones should be fine.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The last 2 don't matter at all given they have no form as they're injured and lions experience from 4 years ago means jot. Class and quality possibly the same thing is fair enough but we have more than enough in fit players elsewhere. Leadership...well. As long as Biggar is playing jones should be fine.

Warburton's form in the 6 Nations was imperious. Few players exemplify class quality and leadership the way these two do.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 5:20 pm

He was very good without the burden of the captaincy and before he was injured. It is a serious point on his choices. Make it Kruis and Murray if it's easier for you to understand.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:22 pm

I understand perfectly well thanks. It seems it is you that can't understand why these two great winning Lions were selected , sorry i can't help with that as you're blinkered.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 5:28 pm

So for Kruis who has no international form and no lions experience?

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So for Kruis who has no international form and no lions experience?

Dont be obtuse. Do you really believe each player is selected using the same criteria?

Selection is personal and therefore subjective.

Kruis was always going on this tour, just had to be fit.

AWJ likewise and Sam, just have to get fit.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 5:39 pm

Personally for me fitness and form would be top too. There's too many going on past form and rep.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Personally for me fitness and form would be top too. There's too many going on past form and rep.

Its not past form though is it

Past form is taking your buddies in 05 after they won RWC in 03.

Past form here would be taking Roberts after his performance in 2013, but he isn't going. Though he will be a great replacement.

AWJ and Sam's form is as pretty up there as it could be, form doesn't evaporate due to injury. That's why Kruis is going.

For AWJ and Sam, these aren't huge injuries, they are everyday rugby dings and every pro player gets them. They both just had great 6 Nations.

The idea that you take a fully fit squad in 2017 is ridiculous, for starters if i name it in late april by late may at least 10% will no longer be fit and some may be unable to play for months. And Gatland will carry favored players to give them every chance to be ready at the right time.

by majesticimperialman Tue 02 May 2017, 5:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Personally for me fitness and form would be top too. There's too many going on past form and rep.

I totaly agree with you on that. Form and Fitness should be the only reason that players are selected. Nothing to do with what happend 4 year ago. Both players AWJ, Warbs will be very hard pressed to get full match fitness before the tour starts.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 5:53 pm

Dont talk nonsense Maj

Warbs may return for Blues before the tour even starts. AWJ will need about 1/2 an hr v a NZ provincial team to be 'match' fit.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 5:55 pm

I agree gwlad. Injured players will be carried.

by majesticimperialman Tue 02 May 2017, 6:02 pm

Look i understand your loyalty to both players. Warbs had agreat 6ns i will agree with you on that.

Regards AWJ, personaly i think he had a crap 6ns. His own team mates disrespected him ( Dan Biggar for example) AWJ wants to kick at goal. Biggar says Al, Al, i am goaing for the corner Al, for the corner Al. Plus your talk about him ( AWJ) will only need 1/2 an hr v a NZ province to be"match fit" is simply poppy man sausage.

by Guest Tue 02 May 2017, 6:03 pm

Don't injuries have to be viewed individually? Two different players might be 'out injured', but if the prognosis and likely recovery time for one player is known (because we know how long these things take to heal) but for the other player the return date is still a bit unknown, due to the nature of the injury, then obviously from a selection point of view then the two players can/should be treated very differently. Suddenly there are different implications of 'out injured' for those players. Including proving fitness or not.

I'm not a doctor, so forgive me if this example is incorrect, but lets say one player has a dislocated finger and we know he will be back in under 4 weeks and it's not the sort of injury that will mean he can't keep up his fitness. Compare that to a player that has damaged ligaments in his ankle and it's a vague couple of months and even then we're not sure exactly how the injury will react to training, etc. and the player will not have been able to keep up fitness in that time because he can't run on it. Both are technically 'out injured' but may be viewed differently in terms of 'proving fitness' to the management. Could that apply to any of the Lions players in question (e.g. Warbs and AWJ v Kruis, Murray, etc.)?

by Guest Tue 02 May 2017, 6:05 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Look i understand your loyalty to both players. Warbs had agreat 6ns i will agree with you on that.

Regards AWJ, personaly i think he had a crap 6ns. His own team mates disrespected him ( Dan Biggar for example) AWJ wants to kick at goal. Biggar says Al, Al, i am goaing for the corner Al, for the corner Al. Plus your talk about him ( AWJ) will only need 1/2 an hr v a NZ province to be"match fit" is simply poppy man sausage.

You keep banging on about this captaincy sh*t Maj. What's that got to do with the way he plays? He's not going as captain. And he played well in the 6N.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 6:06 pm

I don't think we lack depth in positions we have chosen injured players though Griff. Indeed we have ignored players in better form than some of these even were when fit. No need to risk fitness.

by Guest Tue 02 May 2017, 6:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think we lack depth in positions we have chosen injured players though Griff. Indeed we have ignored players in better form than some of these even were when fit. No need to risk fitness.

But that bit in bold is just your opinion 7.5. Unfortunately, or fortunately, you/me/we on 606 are not picking the squad.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 6:10 pm

Really? I'm not sure it is opinion to say there were a fair few locks who played better than Kruis did in the 6ns is it?

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 6:10 pm

Injury managament is part and parcel of rugby. Most players play with an injury of some sort and anyone whoever played any level knows you hurt somewhere most of the time.

You don't select players just because they are fit unless you are an idiot who think that if you select them now they are guaranteed to be fit when the test starts! From that base position you then pick quality players, some may have niggles and serious injuries but as long as the prognosis is fitness by tour time then thats fine. Then you consider just how crucial an injured player is - an example in Gats management of injured player si Gethin in 2011. Went to RWC with a proper calf strain and scored the try of the RWC. Considering the pedigree of AWJ and Sam you give them every chance and finally this utter BS about Biggar and AWJ fgs GET OVER IT. It has no bearing anymore, and it just comes over that it is necessary to find any reason to prove AWJ is a crap player when he is a WINNING LIONS CAPTAIN.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 6:15 pm

Doesn't matter that was 4 years ago. He's injured now.

by Guest Tue 02 May 2017, 6:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Really? I'm not sure it is opinion to say there were a fair few locks who played better than Kruis did in the 6ns is it?

But he didn't play worse than them either did he.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 6:17 pm

Of course it matters you just don't get it. One criteria for election will be Lions experience. Do you understand that?

by majesticimperialman Tue 02 May 2017, 6:21 pm

Gwlad AWJ a winning Lions captain 4 YEARS AGO. He is not the player he once was.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 02 May 2017, 6:23 pm

Griff come off it. There are others in better form who aren't injured. This isn't 1 nation where losing jones is an insurmountable loss. We have loads of options even if a lot seem to be ignored in favour of one certain style. I'd see the point in taking a risk on fitness if say billy vunipola and faletau were injured. You'd still have heaslip but then you'd be looking to straps or even Hughes. There isn't a shortage of quality available to gatland though. He just needs to harness it yet he does appear to be a bit afraid. As lots say sticking to players he knows rather than looking to the players available.

by wayne Tue 02 May 2017, 6:28 pm

Madge, 7&1/2 and anyone on the opposite side of the fence to myself, would you if you were in Gatland's position choose 4 players like AWJ, WRUburton, Kruis and Murray when they were your favourites who had injuries pre tour with the general feeling that they would be ready for the Tour, or would you select 4 inferior players (in your eyes) and then find that your 4 favourites are fit before the Tour starts.

Would it not be more pragmatic to select your big 4, and if they did break down you have the inferiors to step straight in, I wouldn't mind betting that the likes of Launchberry, Greys, Watson,Robshaw and Care have been told to be ready at a moments notice, it could even happen this Saturday. I'm just hoping I'm not trusting providence by naming this Saturday.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 6:28 pm

If Billy V or TF get injured he'll look to Moriarty who kept TF benched for the 6 Nations.

by Gwlad Tue 02 May 2017, 6:29 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Gwlad AWJ a winning Lions captain 4 YEARS AGO. He is not the player he once was.

No he's arguably better

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