Lions 2017 - the decider

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After months if not years, of debate, arguments and plenty bickering the time has come - The Lions are in New Zealand and the tour has begun!

I think it is fair to say that if you're not a fan of the concept of the Lions then this isn't the thread to bring it up - we have had plenty of that over several months and the debate has been done to death. This thread will hopefully be a positive place where those excited about the tour (like me!) can talk about everything that's going on. That's until Jamie Roberts gets a callup of course...

3 June - Provincial union team (Toll Stadium, Whangarei)

7 June - Blues (Eden Park, Auckland)

10 June - Crusaders (AMI Stadium, Christchurch)

13 June - Highlanders (Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin)

17 June - Maori (International Stadium, Rotorua)

20 June - Chiefs (Waikato Stadium, Hamilton)

24 June - New Zealand (First Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

27 June - Hurricanes (Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

1 July - New Zealand (Second Test, Westpac Stadium, Wellington)

8 July - New Zealand (Third Test, Eden Park, Auckland)

Amusing article in Irish Times:

God help us all if the Lions actually win next Saturday
‘Immortality. Is. Beckoning,’ Graham Simmons informed a bemused Seán O’Brien

It was while listening to Robert Hall and Ted Walsh discussing Tinder before the 4.10 at the Curragh on Saturday that you got to wondering, after a weekend and a half of sport, what particular moment would receive the most right swipes? Conor Murray’s try? Owen Farrell’s winning kick? Seán O’Brien’s face during his interview with Graham Simmons? And that was only Saturday morning. The nominees kept rolling in, the entire county of Cork, for example, voting for the final whistle in Killarney.

“What?” Walsh had asked when Hall tried to explain to him what “the quick-fix dating website” was all about, although the choice of “quick-fix” was unfortunate, making it sound more like an emergency drain-unblocking service rather than one that could potentially pair you with the love of your life.

Walsh: “Jaysus, you’re a bit auld to be availing of that service.”

Hall: “I never have, Ted.”

Pause.

Walsh: “Jaysus, you must be fairly hard up if you’ve to go to Tinder.”

Hall: [Silence].

Hall was sorry he had ever mentioned the damn thing, only doing so because there was a horse called Tinder running in the 4.10. There was no love lost between her and anyone who had backed her – she was still running when the winner was accepting his cheque.

You’d have to assume that Sonny Bill Williams – whose Gaelic name, Gavan Reilly of Today FM quite excellently noted, is Mac Liam Mac Liam – would collect the bulk of the weekend’s left swipes after that moment of unpleasantness, although it would seem that Sky’s coverage of the whole business is running him very close.

“Immortality beckons – you know that, don’t you? IMMORTALITY. IS. BECKONING.”

O’Brien looked quite sympathetically at Simmons, in an ‘Are you all right?’ sort of way, and possibly warned Conor Murray what to expect when he headed in for his chat with the Sky man.

“Conor, when you could feeeeeel the thing coming your way, when you could feeeeeel the buzz, feeeeeel the adrenaline, feeeeeel the moment, feeeeeel what you were about to do, how good a feeeeeeling was that?”

“Eh,” said Murray, overwhelmed by all the feels, he and the rest of us left fretting over how Simmons will cope if the Lions actually win next Saturday. Not to mention Will Greenwood and Scott Quinnell, the Cannon and Ball of rugby punditry. Quinnell, in particular, would need a horse tranquilliser to calm him come full-time in the event of victory.

And if Sky used Theodore Roosevelt for match two, where do they go for the decider? George Washington? “You will . . . afford occasion for posterity to say, when speaking of the glorious example you have exhibited to mankind, ‘Had this day been wanting, the world had never seen the last stage of perfection to which human nature is capable of attaining.’ ”

Anyway, we’ll see. Maybe they’ll surprise us and let the occasion speak for itself. Kidding.
No Spillane

There was no such drama in our live Sunday games, Galway pulverising Wexford and, before that, Kerry doing much the same to Cork.

Most disappointingly, there was no Pat Spillane in the studio, the man possibly measuring curtains for Áras an Uachtaráin now that he’s assured of a landslide in the next election.

Joe Brolly, then, has achieved the impossible, making Spillane loved, the Kerry man’s campaign slogan of ‘Make Brolly grate again – vote for me!’ certain to resonate. The Derry man is, of course, the punditry equivalent of a Trump tweet: needlessly nasty, designed to garner attention and best ignored.

Teddy Atlas got himself a bit of attention, too, on Saturday when he emoted on ESPN after Australian Jeff Horn was deemed by the judges to have beaten Manny Pacquiao in their WBO welterweight title fight. Many a boxing aficionado greeted the decision by lowering their jaws to the floor, but the important thing is, especially as a commentator, that you accept the judges’ better wisdom and warmly congratulate the winner.

“Listen, congratulations, great effort,” Atlas said to Horn. “I thought you lost, but great effort.”

Now, that’s just rude. A left swipe for Teddy, a right one for Jeff – immortality is his.

RDW_Scotland wrote:As an aside I'm amazed at how few injuries there have been. At the end of the 2009 and 2013 tours the talk was all about how brutal rugby has become and how dangerous it now is for those who play it.

The Lions have lost Hogg, Moriarty, Henshaw and North to injury and only two of those were impact related - that is significantly fewer than any other Lions tour in the professional era. There have been no injury callups (assuming we don't count the Geography 6 here). This is especially remarkable given it has come at the end of a brutal season and a lot of the players have had to play a lot of games in a short space of time.

So is player conditioning and welfare improving, are have we just been lucky?

In the 2 tests NZ have lost Crotty (hamstring), Smith (concussion) and probably* Naholo (concussion), which is slightly higher than I'd expect - short sample mind

*apparently he's been suffering follow-up symptoms this week - he passed his HIA on the day but Hansen opted to keep him off just in case

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:As an aside I'm amazed at how few injuries there have been. At the end of the 2009 and 2013 tours the talk was all about how brutal rugby has become and how dangerous it now is for those who play it.

The Lions have lost Hogg, Moriarty, Henshaw and North to injury and only two of those were impact related - that is significantly fewer than any other Lions tour in the professional era. There have been no injury callups (assuming we don't count the Geography 6 here). This is especially remarkable given it has come at the end of a brutal season and a lot of the players have had to play a lot of games in a short space of time.

So is player conditioning and welfare improving, are have we just been lucky?

In the 2 tests NZ have lost Crotty (hamstring), Smith (concussion) and probably* Naholo (concussion), which is slightly higher than I'd expect - short sample mind

*apparently he's been suffering follow-up symptoms this week - he passed his HIA on the day but Hansen opted to keep him off just in case

The Lions have lost Hogg, North, Moriarty, Henshaw and Payne though no one knows whats going on with Payne

Payne has certainly been a bit of a wasted squad place - like Kearney was in 2013 with his (hamstring?) injury.  Luckily we've had cover - and have had few injuries - so it hasn't been a problem.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Payne has certainly been a bit of a wasted squad place - like Kearney was in 2013 with his (hamstring?) injury.  Luckily we've had cover - and have had few injuries - so it hasn't been a problem.

Paynes issue currently is migraines rather than any injury, which is more worrying in the long run, which is why he was a last minute withdrawal from Hurricane game and isn't back. If fit he may have made the bench for last game if Gatland went for 6-2 bench split as he covers center and FB, which would be what needs covered by 1 back on the bench.

Kingshu wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Payne has certainly been a bit of a wasted squad place - like Kearney was in 2013 with his (hamstring?) injury.  Luckily we've had cover - and have had few injuries - so it hasn't been a problem.

Paynes issue currently is migraines rather than any injury, which is more worrying in the long run, which is why he was a last minute withdrawal from Hurricane game and isn't back. If fit he may have made the bench for last game if Gatland went for 6-2 bench split as he covers center and FB, which would be what needs covered by 1 back on the bench.

He's been probably the worst player on tour so doubt he'd make the bench regardless.

Seymour can cover full back, if he doesn't get the nod it will be :

"four more years boys... "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xd81cj7pA

Anyway heres hoping Gatland goes with a 6-2 split and empties forwards off the bench

Kingshu wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Payne has certainly been a bit of a wasted squad place - like Kearney was in 2013 with his (hamstring?) injury.  Luckily we've had cover - and have had few injuries - so it hasn't been a problem.

Paynes issue currently is migraines rather than any injury, which is more worrying in the long run, which is why he was a last minute withdrawal from Hurricane game and isn't back. If fit he may have made the bench for last game if Gatland went for 6-2 bench split as he covers center and FB, which would be what needs covered by 1 back on the bench.

That is certainly worrying but he had fitness doubts going into the tour too, and hadn't played for several weeks leading up to it (not that he was the only one in the squad!)

The death toll has been far better than the last tours, and even the initial squad wasnt badly hit... even if a few guys did turn up rusty. Vunipola and Hogg ar the only "first XV" players missing which is as good as you could've hoped going into the first test let alone the third.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Payne has certainly been a bit of a wasted squad place - like Kearney was in 2013 with his (hamstring?) injury.  Luckily we've had cover - and have had few injuries - so it hasn't been a problem.

Paynes issue currently is migraines rather than any injury, which is more worrying in the long run, which is why he was a last minute withdrawal from Hurricane game and isn't back. If fit he may have made the bench for last game if Gatland went for 6-2 bench split as he covers center and FB, which would be what needs covered by 1 back on the bench.

That is certainly worrying but he had fitness doubts going into the tour too, and hadn't played for several weeks leading up to it (not that he was the only one in the squad!)

He was rested in the run up to the Lions tour, Best and Henderson were too

Suggestions in the Times that the starting XV will be unchanged, with maybe Marler and Tipuric on the bench for McGrath and Stander

LondonTiger wrote:Suggestions in the Times that the starting XV will be unchanged, with maybe Marler and Tipuric on the bench for McGrath and Stander

Tupiric I can maybe understand (although Stander didn't get his shot last time) but what has McGrath done??

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Suggestions in the Times that the starting XV will be unchanged, with maybe Marler and Tipuric on the bench for McGrath and Stander

Tupiric I can maybe understand (although Stander didn't get his shot last time) but what has McGrath done??

His stock was high before this tour but I've been quite unimpressed with his work in the scrums, especially the first test. I thought Marler would have overtaken him by now.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Suggestions in the Times that the starting XV will be unchanged, with maybe Marler and Tipuric on the bench for McGrath and Stander

Tupiric I can maybe understand (although Stander didn't get his shot last time) but what has McGrath done??

Didn't Marler have a head knock? Maybe they would have picked him over McGrath last time but he was not available.

I'm not convinced that McGrath's scrummaging has been any worse than the other two, and you can hardly say Vunipola's scrummaging has been strong. Also, the Lions are talking about discipline and Vunipola and Marler both have yellows this tour from doing something stupid!

Yes they're talking about discipline, but what they want is aggression and a bit of nasty. They'll take a yellow or two if they get a win on the way.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not convinced that McGrath's scrummaging has been any worse than the other two, and you can hardly say Vunipola's scrummaging has been strong. Also, the Lions are talking about discipline and Vunipola and Marler both have yellows this tour from doing something stupid!

The props in general have been very underwhelming especially at loosehead

yappysnap wrote:Yes they're talking about discipline, but what they want is aggression and a bit of nasty. They'll take a yellow or two if they get a win on the way.

If we get a yellow or two the chances of us winning are greatly reduced.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not convinced that McGrath's scrummaging has been any worse than the other two, and you can hardly say Vunipola's scrummaging has been strong. Also, the Lions are talking about discipline and Vunipola and Marler both have yellows this tour from doing something stupid!

I think Marler has been the best scrummager. Vunipola has been solid enough. Vunipola went and played exactly as instructed last weekend so it's no surprise if he retains his place. Quite a handy player to have when you play tough teams.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I'm not convinced that McGrath's scrummaging has been any worse than the other two, and you can hardly say Vunipola's scrummaging has been strong. Also, the Lions are talking about discipline and Vunipola and Marler both have yellows this tour from doing something stupid!

I think Marler has been the best scrummager. Vunipola has been solid enough. Vunipola went and played exactly as instructed last weekend so it's no surprise if he retains his place. Quite a handy player to have when you play tough teams.

Marler has given away his fair share of penalties this tour, of the English front rows George is about the only one who hasn't really had an issue there

The only way for NH teams to win against the all blacks is to rough them up a bit, Mako got stuck in and disrupted the AB's especially Barrett, why are people moaning about it?

TightHEAD wrote:The only way for NH teams to win against the all blacks is to rough them up a bit, Mako got stuck in and disrupted the AB's especially Barrett, why are people moaning about it?

Because he wasn't exactly subtle about it and got a yellow card - luckily the ABs were already down to 14 so didn't hurt us as much but if we're playing 1 man down for 10 minutes they will punish us.

True, but clearly Mako was walking a tightrope and was getting excited, he should have been subbed 5 mins earlier.

Doesn't mean he was wrong to get stuck in, and I believe it was part of a plan to do so.

Playing by the rules doesn't win you games in NZ.

They tried to kill Geech! This one is for him!

As stated many times, I hope Gatland does not use Sexton and Farrell at 10/12. Either of them is good for 10 but I would like to see Biggar come to the bench.

As well as AWJ played last week, I feel Itoje and Lawes are a better balance with Henderson coming off the bench. That said, if it is seen that Itoje is a bit of a liability (penalty wise) I would not mind seeing a Henderson/Lawes partnership with Itoje coming off the bench.

Best I feel is the best scrummaging 2 on tour so I would like to see him either start or be on the bench. I would give Mako another chance but at the first sign of him loosing his composure, replace him.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yes they're talking about discipline, but what they want is aggression and a bit of nasty. They'll take a yellow or two if they get a win on the way.

If we get a yellow or two the chances of us winning are greatly reduced.

Balancing act I guess.

eirebilly wrote:As stated many times, I hope Gatland does not use Sexton and Farrell at 10/12. Either of them is good for 10 but I would like to see Biggar come to the bench.

As well as AWJ played last week, I feel Itoje and Lawes are a better balance with Henderson coming off the bench. That said, if it is seen that Itoje is a bit of a liability (penalty wise) I would not mind seeing a Henderson/Lawes partnership with Itoje coming off the bench.

Best I feel is the best scrummaging 2 on tour so I would like to see him either start or be on the bench. I would give Mako another chance but at the first sign of him loosing his composure, replace him.

I think as bad as Kruis has looked in the loose at times he's a great asset in the lineout and can really put the ABs under pressure on their own throw, I think that should get him in ahead of Lawes with Henderson on the bench

I don't think Best is a bench player, he can be useful if you are ahead but in NZ at Eden Park the odds of being head when subs are coming on are slim so you need players who can really open the game up for you

So you suggest Best to start marty? I would certainly not be against that and you may actually be on to something with Kruis in the line out working with best. Never thought of that but it does seem an excellent option.

I think if you have Best you need Lawes. Lawes has great reach and athleticism to catch the errant throws.

Another question mark I have is if it is wet, do you start Williams at 15? He was below average under the high ball.

He is an excellent counter attacker but he also needs to be solid under the high ball as I am sure the AB's will target there.

Right now I would have Watson (good under the high ball and in counter attacking) or Halfpenny (solid under the high ball and great goal kicker) ahead of Williams.

That is not to say I would leave Williams out, for me I would have him on the wing if Watson starts at 15 and on the bench if Halfpenny starts at 15.

Kruis isn't going to come back into the squad after he performed poorly and last week all 3 locks performed better. I'd be surprised if anyone was altered in the starting lineup tbf though I'd still drop vunipola.

Scottrf wrote:I think if you have Best you need Lawes. Lawes has great reach and athleticism to catch the errant throws.

eirebilly wrote:Another question mark I have is if it is wet, do you start Williams at 15? He was below average under the high ball.

He is an excellent counter attacker but he also needs to be solid under the high ball as I am sure the AB's will target there.

Right now I would have Watson (good under the high ball and in counter attacking) or Halfpenny (solid under the high ball and great goal kicker) ahead of Williams.

That is not to say I would leave Williams out, for me I would have him on the wing if Watson starts at 15 and on the bench if Halfpenny starts at 15.

Agree with that. Agree with your lock selections too, AWJ needs a rest. I think the 2nd row will remain the same though and if they perform like last week then that's good thing.

eirebilly wrote:So you suggest Best to start marty? I would certainly not be against that and you may actually be on to something with Kruis in the line out working with best. Never thought of that but it does seem an excellent option.

I think if he's not a starter he's not in the squad but I would start him because we need to get dominance at the breakdown and he offers that and I think George offers a real spark coming off the bench

First test we caused problems on the ABs throw and Kruis and POM I think were a big part of that

Best plays we lose the Lineout battle before we even get on the pitch. 

Id start Best too and bring George on as required. Cant see there being too many lineouts anyway as I think NZ will look to run at all costs in this test. Breakdown is going to win the game.

Really struggling to understand how people truly deem Best to be a bad Lineout thrower... I cannot see it, I think he is very solid and certainly not a step down from the others in the squad.

What he does bring is excellence in scrummaging (very much needed) and his work at the breakdown and rolling mauls. In these fields, he is up there with the best.

eirebilly wrote:Really struggling to understand how people truly deem Best to be a bad Lineout thrower... I cannot see it, I think he is very solid and certainly not a step down from the others in the squad.

What he does bring is excellence in scrummaging (very much needed) and his work at the breakdown and rolling mauls. In these fields, he is up there with the best.

Best has missed around the same amount of throws as George on this tour. It didnt help that Best played in the BaBas game as everyone looked bad in that game.

He is a much better all round player than George. Its a bit of an odd one.

George is the best lineout operator in the squad by a distance. There's not much debate to that surely?

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Really struggling to understand how people truly deem Best to be a bad Lineout thrower... I cannot see it, I think he is very solid and certainly not a step down from the others in the squad.

What he does bring is excellence in scrummaging (very much needed) and his work at the breakdown and rolling mauls. In these fields, he is up there with the best.

Best has missed around the same amount of throws as George on this tour. It didnt help that Best played in the BaBas game as everyone looked bad in that game.

He is a much better all round player than George. Its a bit of an odd one.

Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

It all comes down to opinion, as there is no empirical formula to decide the best.

For me:

Scrum: Best > George
Lineout: George > Best
Breakdown: Equal
Defence: George > Best
Ball in Hand: George > Best
Leadership: Best> George
Alcohol Consumption: George Best

LondonTiger wrote:It all comes down to opinion, as there is no empirical formula to decide the best.

For me:

Scrum: Best > George
Lineout: George > Best
Breakdown: Equal
Defence: George > Best
Ball in Hand: George > Best
Leadership: Best> George
Alcohol Consumption: George Best

Washington: Best George.

I'd not see that Pete. I think best has been the form hooker on tour and not given a fair crack. There has been a certain amount of talking down george though because of that ie that he's not good in the scrum etc. He's not as good as best but he's still well above average.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Really struggling to understand how people truly deem Best to be a bad Lineout thrower... I cannot see it, I think he is very solid and certainly not a step down from the others in the squad.

What he does bring is excellence in scrummaging (very much needed) and his work at the breakdown and rolling mauls. In these fields, he is up there with the best.

Best has missed around the same amount of throws as George on this tour. It didnt help that Best played in the BaBas game as everyone looked bad in that game.

He is a much better all round player than George. Its a bit of an odd one.

Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

Best actually offers more than shouting - as an English fan, I rate him, would have no issue if he started over George, there's arguments for both

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd not see that Pete.  I think best has been the form hooker on tour and not given a fair crack. There has been a certain amount of talking down george though because of that ie that he's not good in the scrum etc. He's not as good as best but he's still well above average.

George is a very good player, he's not as good in the scrum simply through experience and the little things you pick up through playing. He's probably better than Rory when he was the same age, it was probably around that age that Best really put in extra work on his lineout which wasn't very consistent back then and he still gets the jips at times

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Really struggling to understand how people truly deem Best to be a bad Lineout thrower... I cannot see it, I think he is very solid and certainly not a step down from the others in the squad.

What he does bring is excellence in scrummaging (very much needed) and his work at the breakdown and rolling mauls. In these fields, he is up there with the best.

Best has missed around the same amount of throws as George on this tour. It didnt help that Best played in the BaBas game as everyone looked bad in that game.

He is a much better all round player than George. Its a bit of an odd one.

Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

I really rate George highly and think he will be excellent in years to come but I do feel that Best is still just that bit better than him right now. Owens, is also very good but again, I feel Best is still just that bit better.

Its a tight call for all three to be fair.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Really struggling to understand how people truly deem Best to be a bad Lineout thrower... I cannot see it, I think he is very solid and certainly not a step down from the others in the squad.

What he does bring is excellence in scrummaging (very much needed) and his work at the breakdown and rolling mauls. In these fields, he is up there with the best.

Best has missed around the same amount of throws as George on this tour. It didnt help that Best played in the BaBas game as everyone looked bad in that game.

He is a much better all round player than George. Its a bit of an odd one.

Best seems to be the Irish equivalent of AWJ. Much higher rated by his home fans than those elsewhere. There's a bit of that in all players (gotta love those tinted specs) but it does seem much more pronounced in those two

He isnt going to be rated in New Zealand whatever he does anyway because despite captaining a side to the first win against NZ in 111 years only 1% of New Zealand rugby fans knew who he was.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/sport/national/93277269/Lions-tour-British-tabloids-latch-on-the-the-no-names-poll

Best also has pretty much dominated the breakdown and lineout in his last three tests v NZ and scored 1 try. Just goes to show that NZ fans aren't as knowledgeable as they think they are.

Lineout stats:
Chicago 2016: Ireland 10 won, 2 lost (83.3%) NZ 12 won, 3 lost (80.0%)
Dublin 2016: 18 won, 2 lost (90.0%)         NZ 7 won, 0 lost (100.0%)
Ireland 2013: 13 won, 1 lost (92.9%)                NZ 5 won, 1 lost (83.3%)

Turnovers conceded:
Ireland 3013: Ire 15 Turnovers conceded 19 NZ
Ireland 2016: Ire 15 Turnovers conceded 19 NZ
Chicago 2016: Ire 14 Turnovers conceded 17 NZ

In those tests Best hasn't conceded a single penalty and has only missed 2 tackles. He was outstanding but unsurprisingly you probably didnt even notice.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:The only way for NH teams to win against the all blacks is to rough them up a bit, Mako got stuck in and disrupted the AB's especially Barrett, why are people moaning about it?

Because he wasn't exactly subtle about it and got a yellow card - luckily the ABs were already down to 14 so didn't hurt us as much but if we're playing 1 man down for 10 minutes they will punish us.

It's possibly a bit overblown this. He gave away 4 pens overall which no-one doubts is too many, but people are homing in on 2 in particular. It's arguable that the first wasn't even a penalty. He didn't change his line and the time between kick and contact was near identical to the Farrell one which Garces deemed was fair. There was one difference between Barrett and Farrell though and that was that Barrett stayed down. Now I'm not suggesting into whether Barrett was play acting, but I think it's a reasonable suggestion that it would influence Garces/TMO. Both challenges, in realtime Garces was unconcerned with, but when you see a man on the floor it gives the officials reason to come back and look at it again. Which is what they did. Just unlucky for Vunipola. Refs aren't always consistent but that's life. The second one was a bit clumsy, but again I didn't think it was particularly bad and had he not given away a pen on the same man a minute before I think he would have escaped. I reject it was a shoulder charge (and so does the citing commissioner).

For me the error Vunipola made was that after having given away the last pen, and in a period where the Lions were giving away lots of pens, he needed to be whiter than white (I also didn't enjoy his chopsing to the ref about it). Stupid? Probably. Unlucky? I think so. I think dropping him would be an overreaction.

Incidentally the reports coming out of NZ are that he will retain his place.