2017/18 Champions League and Europa League thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Dejan Lovren is hilariously awful

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And yet his reputation at Southampton isn't far removed from where VVD is now. Matip came from Germany with a good reputation. Moreno wasn't a mug in Spain etc.

Hard to keep arguing the failure is with individuals rather than systemic.

I mean, Lovren is and always was rubbish, Moreno was a young talent and Matip was so good he was available on a free. Hardly world beaters. Pretty clear Liverpool needed to invest in their defence over the summer and they failed to do so - they only got themselves to blame

[lfc91]

I didn't say I made it clear what I meant in the original post. In fact I actually used the second post to explain my point as you'd misjudged what it was meant to be. I was actually trying to point out that you assumed you knew and went on the offensive rather than find out.

Listen, don't worry yourself about it. You are talking to a random guy on the internet whos opinion no doubt means nothing to you and vice versa. Don't let it ruin your day mate.

[GSC]

Liverpool aren't in the tier of clubs that sign world beaters though.

I'm not arguing that better players would improve overall performance that would be silly, more that there's a clear trend of defenders declining at Liverpool.

To some extent the individual errors are caused by poor coaching and individuals being put under greater strain than is acceptable

[lfc91]

For the most part though an individual error has to be mainly due to the individual. Sub any CB at your respective teams into the situation for the first goal (Lovren error) last night and ask yourself if you think they would have cleared the ball? Most CB's in the prem surely would have dealt with it.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Liverpool aren't in the tier of clubs that sign world beaters though.

I'm not arguing that better players would improve overall performance that would be silly, more that there's a clear trend of defenders declining at Liverpool.

To some extent the individual errors are caused by poor coaching and individuals being put under greater strain than is acceptable

Ah misunderstood your point - Moreno would be an example of said poor coaching - a player with talent, who hasn't progressed at the club.

[GSC]

Yeah Alderweireld would be my other case study, player who stood out at Southampton and has flourished at Spurs where there's a well defined structure and discipline.

[GSC]

But I would also say it's not just about progressing, defenders regress when they join Liverpool

[Crimey]

I do think a big part of it is people just have to accept that Klopp has set the team out to play in a way which is going to leave the defence massively exposed. We could alter the style and approach so that the defence is less exposed, but then you'd have to accept that some of the attacking flair and ability would be sacrificed in favour of stability at the back. It's also about risk-reward and Klopp's style is very risky, the rewards just need to start coming. 

I completely agree that signing Van Dijk would not have solved all the problems, because the main one would still be there. Liverpool play with 8 attacking players, the full backs push up to be essentially wingers and Henderson/Can/Lucas whoever it is as the "number 6" doesn't sit particularly far back either. They are supposed to defend as a team and from the front, but if a team breaks through the press, the defence is exposed, it doesn't matter if you've got Maldini and Baresi back there, they will concede goals. However the goals conceded by stupid errors or set pieces could be solved by better personnel. Lovren in particular makes a lot of silly errors, see missing the ball last night and the defence lacks a leader who keeps concentration levels high. If we could transplant Jamie Carragher's brain into Lovren, we'd be gold. We need a defender who isn't afraid of holding others to account and ensuring that defensive lines are kept and corners are defended properly. I don't think zonal marking or high lines at free kicks are a problem in particular, just that the defenders aren't brave or intelligent enough to deal with the problems.

[Beer]

I didn't say I made it clear what I meant in the original post. In fact I actually used the second post to explain my point as you'd misjudged what it was meant to be. I was actually trying to point out that you assumed you knew and went on the offensive rather than find out.

Listen, don't worry yourself about it. You are talking to a random guy on the internet whos opinion no doubt means nothing to you and vice versa. Don't let it ruin your day mate.

Consider it forgotten!

[lfc91]

So basically we have a nice mix of players who are prone to individual errors and a style of play that exposes those players to a greater degree than most..

Think this season will be more of the same. Will see some devastating displays against a number of top teams mixed in with a big helping of poor results against all sorts of teams who deploy an effective style we just can't deal with.

Still though, think they are more than capable of qualifying from their champs league group and getting back in the top 4, which I personally would be happy with this season (if they grabbed the FA cup aswell would be very very pleased).

[Crimey]

So basically we have a nice mix of players who are prone to individual errors and a style of play that exposes those players to a greater degree than most..

Think this season will be more of the same. Will see some devastating displays against a number of top teams mixed in with a big helping of poor results against all sorts of teams who deploy an effective style we just can't deal with.

Still though, think they are more than capable of qualifying from their champs league group and getting back in the top 4, which I personally would be happy with this season (if they grabbed the FA cup aswell would be very very pleased).

I am at least hoping for an improvement against the lower down sides, we have more pace in the side which will add a different kind of threat and we also have plenty of different style of options from the bench (if Klopp uses them!) which should help when breaking down those sides that just want to sit the defence in front of the box. Also having two pacey left-footed left backs will help as it gives an option around the outside and Firminio and Wijnaldum are surprisingly good in the air.

[GSC]

Pressure makes the mind do silly things though.

[lfc91]

Correct. And it would appear to me that lack of mental strength is an issue throughout the Liverpool squad (Obviously not all the players, but enough of them for it to be a big concern).

[Crimey]

I would agree. I think Henderson is a good captain but there are few characters in the team right now capable of lifting the rest of the side or driving them forward. Heads drop far too easily at times. I don't think the crowd helps though, it's clear that their edginess does affect the players. The team plays so much better when the crowd are up for it from the start and remain vocal. A problem with plenty of the bigger sides though I am sure.

[Beer]

There's an element of the Liverpool side that reminds of Newcastle in the Keegan era, whereby the heavily relied on a 'We'll score one more than you' mentality, rather than actually work on their defensive frailties.

[BamBam]

If you transplanted Jamie Carragher's brain into Lovren you'd have a defender just as liable to make calamity errors, but with more determination to run back and pull off the hero slide tackle that wouldn't be needed if he hadn't made the error in the first place

The John Terry school of defending

[Crimey]

If you transplanted Jamie Carragher's brain into Lovren you'd have a defender just as liable to make calamity errors, but with more determination to run back and pull off the hero slide tackle that wouldn't be needed if he hadn't made the error in the first place

The John Terry school of defending

Think that's unfair on Carragher who was always a very well organised defender and more importantly was very good at managing the defenders around him. I don't think Carragher is particularly remembered for his last-ditch tackles.

[BamBam]

Based on reading your posts on the football forum over the summer, I'm utterly stunned that you disagree with criticism of anything related to Liverpool

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I see Carragher more in the Terry school than Rio school, I admit

[compelling and rich]

fairly strong everton team being embarrassed in the europa. seems like filling a team with slow 10's doesn't work

[Duty281]

Many ticketless Cologne fans have managed to get in the Emirates; unsure how, but a worrying development.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think we should all appreciate how lucky it is that they have done this to the most docile set of supporters in England

[GSC]

Hope Colognes fans enjoy watching their team in Europe, suspect it may be a while before they do again en masse.

Fines coming for Arsenal, stadium bans for Cologne I suspect

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Lukaku just misses far too many routine chances.

[GSC]

Chelsea nick a big win in Madrid

[Duty281]

Big night for Harry Kane: can he do it on the biggest stage of all?

Madrid have had a fairly average start to the season, so this is a great time for Tottenham to play them.

[Guest]

I'd love him to absolutely steal the show tonight, but it's a shame the Spurs side is nothing like what it should be. Sissoko, Winks & Llorente playing.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Spurs 1-0 thanks to an own goal

[Duty281]

1-1 half time. Expect more goals!

EDIT: Expect quality goalkeeping!

[sirfredperry]

Spurs 3-1 win against Real arguably the greatest victory in the club's history, given the quality of the opposition.
   Real have won the Champions League three times in the last four seasons and had not lost a CL group match for 30 matches.

[Duty281]

Good result for Tottenham, but not entirely surprising given the evidence of the previous encounter and Madrid’s disappointing excursions in the league.

Excellent to see an English spine at the heart of Spurs’ win, led by Alli.

[Hero]

Wonder if this season is the one in which the power shifts from the big La Liga two to the Premier League clubs or Paris?

[BamBam]

Oil money was always going to win eventually

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Imagine if Liverpool actually invested some money in actually good defenders and a good DM

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Jordan Henderson completed 55% of his passes against Sevilla.

Yes, a central midfielder completing just 55% of his passes....

#SEVLIV

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Jordan Henderson completed 55% of his passes against Sevilla.

Yes, a central midfielder completing just 55% of his passes....

#SEVLIV

Also failed to win a single tackle.

How people think he’s good is beyond me - a West Brom level player if ever I saw one

[lfc91]

So Liverpool went full Liverpool last night. Hadn't happened since the spurs game. Was fun while it lasted...

[Steffan]

Good win for the boys last night. I reckon it's our year

[Guest]

Group Winners

Barcelona, Beşiktaş, Liverpool, Manchester United, PSG, Manchester City, Tottenham, Roma


Runner-Up

Basel, Bayern München, Chelsea, Juventus,  Porto, Real Madrid, Sevilla, Shakhtar Donetsk

[GSC]

Chelsea can only draw Barca, PSG or Besiktas

[Fernando]

PSG it is then

[Hero]

Nope Barca.


The full draw:

Juventus vs Spurs

FC Basel vs Manchester City

FC Porto vs Liverpool

Sevilla vs Manchester United

Real Madrid vs PSG

Shakhtar vs Roma

Chelsea vs Barca

Bayern Munich vs Besiktas

[Ent]

Some good ties there but a lot of the big guns going to be missing from the latter stages.

Fancy
Juventus
City
Liverpool
United
Real
Shakhtar
Barca
Bayern

[lfc91]

Arguably the best draw Liverpool could have got. Have to fancy our chances to make the quarters. Would say the same for united. That Sevilla team aren't up to much this year, think Liverpools defense made them look better than they are. United should go through.

Spurs and Chelsea both up against it. Would say spurs have a very good chance. Been great in Europe this season. Chelsea up against it. Reckon they are going out.

City would be favorites against most teams but a very easy draw for them regardless.

[GSC]

Think Porto and Sevilla will cause more problems than you expect.

[lfc91]

Oh I don't doubt that. Would still make Liverpool/United favorites to progress from their respective ties though.

[Ent]

United will find it tough from this stage but Sevilla struggle with the counter attack and his is how we will play.

[No name Bertie]

Real Madrid vs PSG  

Draw of the round by some distance in my view. This could have been the final. Though Real Madrid are not playing particularly well at the moment, one might expect them to turn it around by February, and their European pedigree is second to none by a distance.   Meanwhile PSG seem to be all conquering after spending a fortune buying up top players that have hit the ground running.

The fact one of them will be knocked out increases the chances of an English team reaching the final and winning it.

[No name Bertie]

Chelsea vs Barcelona is a tough fixture for both sides. Barcelona are not as good without Neymar in the side and seem to be below par compared to previous years. But they are probably favorites to go through, with the return game at Barcelona. Should be an interesting test of Conte's tactical skills.

Spurs vs Juventus another tough fixture for both sides. I think Spurs are going to have difficulties trying to retain a top four spot in the Premiership as well as mount a Champions League campaign. So far they have excelled in the Champions League but maybe this has come at the expense of performance in the Premiership.

[compelling and rich]

real v psg so far has been people throwing themselves to the floor for 10 minutes. chance of a game breaking out soon hopefully

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