6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1

[cascough]

Elite Player Squad squad.

I offer no defence, only apologies.

[TightHEAD]

It is if you're in it!

Makes no sense.

He's one of 5 scrum halves in the EPS squad. Of the three that weren't initially picked, Wigglesworth is the most experienced by far. People are getting hot and bothered about it but the reality is he's never been that far away from a call up.

Not being in the match day squad is a cold place to be for anyone. EPS or not.

[cascough]

I disagree. He had as much chance to play as Alex Lozowski, in so much as he is 3rd choice and it would take injuries for Losowski to get a cap this 6N. Arguably he's in a better place actually, because it's extremely likely that 2 9s are named in a matchday squad. That's less clear for Loz. Ultimately I'm sure Wigglesworth would like to be training with England as 3rd choice, but I'd hardly consider potentially being just 1 injury away from being in the matchday squad out in the cold.

[Gooseberry]

The call up of Wiggleworth does go against the grain a buit for Eddie though.
Hes previously opnely stated and been keen on sleecting players he wants to take a gamble of having the potential to be exceptional and bring a new level as a potential first choice over those who are good but unlikely to be great place fillers.
Wigglesworth you'd feel fits into that second category, hes failed to establish long term places in worse England sides than this and is no spring chicken/long term option.

Hes no more an outsider than the other two options yes, and has bags of experience playing with Farrell should they shift to the old Lancaster closing axis.

But this does strike as a short term " 50 cap cavalry" rather than the sort of selection he wouldve made in the summer. And it does dimsinish Englands ability to play their fast attacking backs game once hes on. On the flip maybe with so much inexperience in the side hes wanted to balance things out a bit more, esapecially having lost one of his leaders

Maybe Jones just doenst rate Robson as highly as the internet does. It is a suprise but maybe not a shock. I trust his judgement anyway, Jones has shown he gets it right more often than not.

[TightHEAD]

I disagree. It's a cold lonely place.

[cascough]

I disagree. It's a cold lonely place.

It'd be nice if you explained why.

[cascough]

Maybe Jones just doenst rate Robson as highly as the internet does. It is a suprise but maybe not a shock. I trust his judgement anyway, Jones has shown he gets it right more often than not.

Jones has pointed to weaknesses in his defence before. In all honesty I don't watch enough of Wasps to know if this is a fair criticism, but it does at least offer an insight as to Jones' thinking.

[TightHEAD]

I disagree. It's a cold lonely place.

It'd be nice if you explained why.

Why should I?

[Poorfour]

The call up of Wiggleworth does go against the grain a buit for Eddie though.
Hes previously opnely stated and been keen on sleecting players he wants to take a gamble of having the potential to be exceptional and bring a new level as a potential first choice over those who are good but unlikely to be great place fillers.
Wigglesworth you'd feel fits into that second category, hes failed to establish long term places in worse England sides than this and is no spring chicken/long term option.

Hes no more an outsider than the other two options yes, and has bags of experience playing with Farrell should they shift to the old Lancaster closing axis.

But this does strike as a short term " 50 cap cavalry" rather than the sort of selection he wouldve made in the summer. And it does dimsinish Englands ability to play their fast attacking backs game once hes on. On the flip maybe with so much inexperience in the side hes wanted to balance things out a bit more, esapecially having lost one of his leaders

Maybe Jones just doenst rate Robson as highly as the internet does. It is a suprise but maybe not a shock. I trust his judgement anyway, Jones has shown he gets it right more often than not.

I don't think it does go against the grain as much as people might think. To me, it's all a question of timing. Eddie has a strong bias towards youth in his training squads, but he likes people to spend time in the EPS and in camp before he gives them their first cap. He's had no time to do that now, so he turns to a proven campaigner. It's very similar to what he did with Wood last year, and even what he's done with moving Chris "not a 7, more a 6.5" Robshaw back to openside.

But absolutely, Wiggy's call up is likely short term and I would bet that he won't tour this summer. And I agree that t'interweb rates Robson (and Wade, Ewers etc) more highly than Eddie does.

[Gooseberry]

Maybe Jones just doenst rate Robson as highly as the internet does. It is a suprise but maybe not a shock. I trust his judgement anyway, Jones has shown he gets it right more often than not.

Jones has pointed to weaknesses in his defence before. In all honesty I don't watch enough of Wasps to know if this is a fair criticism, but it does at least offer an insight as to Jones' thinking.

Fair point. If youre already having to hide Ford someone who can tackle is pretty important, although Id never seen Wigglesworth as especially strong in that regard.

We can argue all day about where the line on cold is, but a 28 month gap for caps is pretty substantial. Youd think that he mustve been doubting his chances of adding to his caps when pushing 35.


Theres bigger issues in the England squad than SH injury cover though. The injuries will test squad depth now they are up against quality opposition.
Oh wait no it not Ireland this week is it

[TightHEAD]

Fords defense isn't weak, massive misconception just because he doesn't knock people backwards.

[Gooseberry]

Fords defense isn't weak, massive misconception just because he doesn't knock people backwards.

...and Jones having stated he has to hide him in defence. Please lets not start this one again.

[TightHEAD]

Fords defense isn't weak, massive misconception just because he doesn't knock people backwards.

...and Jones having stated he has to hide him in defence.

Eddie would say that......

Hopefully that will make the opposition attack the Ford Channel all game long.

[cascough]

I disagree. It's a cold lonely place.

It'd be nice if you explained why.

Why should I?

I didn't say you should, but you could, and I think that would be nice.

Personally think this forum would get pretty stale if people simply repeated their viewpoint over and over without ever explaining it.

[Poorfour]

Personally think this forum would get pretty stale if people simply repeated their viewpoint over and over without ever explaining it.

Nope. Never seen that happening on here. Wouldn't want it to start now.

[TightHEAD]

Its soooooo cold when you're outside looking in.......

[beshocked]

Whilst I wouldn't have picked Wigglesworth, there aren't IMO some new young talent at 9 putting their hands up IMO.

Yes I realise there's the likes of Maunder,Robson and Spencer but I don't think they've been really lighting up the AP.

It's not a situation like Simmonds where he was clearly the 8 of the moment.


Do other 9s have potential to be exceptional? Not convinced as of yet.

[Guest]

Have to say this thread is much more pleasant and good natured than the Wales v Scotland one last week. Kudos folks!

[LondonTiger]

My main concern with Wigglesworth coming back in from the cold is that Richard Hill contacted him, Steve Borthwick praised him. Seems to be a bit of a Sarries jobs for the boys attitude creeping into the national side.

That will help no one long term, I hope Eddie stamps on it now.

He was in the EPS squad. That's hardly "the cold".

Was an EPS ever formally announced?

I know that there is one, to enable the various payments, but was it ever announced?

I have found this - http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/ but nothing explicitely stating that is an EPS, and I wonder if players are being added to it as they are called up? (

[TightHEAD]

Have to say this thread is much more pleasant and good natured than the Wales v Scotland one last week. Kudos folks!

You can take you positive comments and make like a tree!!!!!!!

[Tattie Scones RRN]

For those going to the match.....

You'll probably receive an email or some kind of warning about the security measures in place and leave yourself plenty of time to get in, but this doesn't in any way, prepare for you for the utter shambles the security set up is.

From someone who queued up at 12.45 at Gate 1 and got to my seat just as the ball was kicked off without stopping for a drink/toilet, trust me, go straight to the ground and don't drink too much beforehand.

Also - Walkabout don't let you in unless you have photo ID, which no one tells you until you've got to the front door after queuing up for half an hour.

Apart from that, it's ace

[Scottrf]

You deserve all you get for queuing half an hour for such an abomination of a bar. But pretty standard and I think most people carry photo ID?

Are you sure you're talking about Twickenham though?

[cascough]

My main concern with Wigglesworth coming back in from the cold is that Richard Hill contacted him, Steve Borthwick praised him. Seems to be a bit of a Sarries jobs for the boys attitude creeping into the national side.

That will help no one long term, I hope Eddie stamps on it now.

He was in the EPS squad. That's hardly "the cold".

Was an EPS ever formally announced?

I know that there is one, to enable the various payments, but was it ever announced?

I have found this - http://www.englandrugby.com/england/senior-england-men/squads/  but nothing explicitely stating that is an EPS, and I wonder if players are being added to it as they are called up? (

No it wasn't actually, at Eddie Jones' request. I only know who are the 9s because several journalists clarified it with Jones after the rumours that they were looking at Velacott.

[lostinwales]

Fords defense isn't weak, massive misconception just because he doesn't knock people backwards.

...and Jones having stated he has to hide him in defence.

Eddie would say that......

Hopefully that will make the opposition attack the Ford Channel all game long.

He makes his fair share of tackles that's for sure

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I know he is getting on but didn't Wiggy cover winger in his youth, my memories are that he was pretty nippy.

[ChequeredJersey]

It won’t happen but I would quite like to see this from England if Hughes is deemed fit:

Brown
Watson
Joseph/Teo
Farrell
May
Ford
Care
Hughes
Simmonds
Robshaw
Launchbury
Lawes
Cole
Hartley 
Mako

Hepburn, George, Williams, Itoje, Underhill (or if too soon for Hughes to start, Hughes with Underhill at 7 and Simmonds at 8, or if Hughes fully out, Mercer if recovered), Wriggles, The other centre, Nowell


Look to play with pace with Simmonds a linking, carrying 7 and pressurising Patchell, Robshaw and Hughes to scrag Davies, Hughes a more powerful direct carrier to mix up the form of our carrying attack, focus on the breakdown and spreading out carrying duties, try to narrow the Wales defence and use the cross field and chip kicks a lot with playmakers with good attacking kicks at 9,10 and 12 and a lethal kick chase. Force them to defend wide by this then switch up to flooding the inside channels (for this tactic I’d start with Teo and then bring on Joseph once we switch to the inside flood).

[WELL-PAST-IT]

My only worry would be the lineout with only Lawes as a recognised specialist, Launchbury is adequate and so is Robshaw. They are going to be up against at least two specialists and 2 pretty good backrow jumpers

[lostinwales]

It won’t happen but I would quite like to see this from England if Hughes is deemed fit:

Brown
Watson
Joseph/Teo
Farrell
May
Ford
Care
Hughes
Simmonds
Robshaw
Launchbury
Lawes
Cole
Hartley 
Mako

Hepburn, George, Williams, Itoje, Underhill (or if too soon for Hughes to start, Hughes with Underhill at 7 and Simmonds at 8, or if Hughes fully out, Mercer if recovered), Wriggles, The other centre, Nowell


Look to play with pace with Simmonds a linking, carrying 7 and pressurising Patchell, Robshaw and Hughes to scrag Davies, Hughes a more powerful direct carrier to mix up the form of our carrying attack, focus on the breakdown and spreading out carrying duties, try to narrow the Wales defence and use the cross field and chip kicks a lot with playmakers with good attacking kicks at 9,10 and 12 and a lethal kick chase. Force them to defend wide by this then switch up to flooding the inside channels (for this tactic I’d start with Teo and then bring on Joseph once we switch to the inside flood).

I believe Hughes is a viable line out jumper too, though I doubt there will be many queuing up to lift him

[BamBam]

My only worry would be the lineout with only Lawes as a recognised specialist, Launchbury is adequate and so is Robshaw. They are going to be up against at least two specialists and 2 pretty good backrow jumpers

Shingler is a good jumper in the back row, who is the other? AWJ is probably equivalent to Launchbury. I'd say we have the outright best/most athletic jumper in Lawes/Itoje if the line ups are per last week just without a lock at 6

[ChequeredJersey]

My only worry would be the lineout with only Lawes as a recognised specialist, Launchbury is adequate and so is Robshaw. They are going to be up against at least two specialists and 2 pretty good backrow jumpers

I wouldn’t want us to kick for touch much, and we have plenty of lineout options and someone who leads the lineout

Happy to swap Itoje for Launch but I think that leads to a more significant loss in carrying power and I think playing a lock at 6 is just a bad bad bad idea, a lesson we should have learnt ages ago

[cascough]

My only worry would be the lineout with only Lawes as a recognised specialist, Launchbury is adequate and so is Robshaw. They are going to be up against at least two specialists and 2 pretty good backrow jumpers

I wouldn’t want us to kick for touch much, and we have plenty of lineout options and someone who leads the lineout

Happy to swap Itoje for Launch but I think that leads to a more significant loss in carrying power and I think playing a lock at 6 is just a bad bad bad idea, a lesson we should have learnt ages ago

If he drops a lock, no doubt in my mind he's starting Te'o. I'd suggest he would like to start JJ, which means he will play a lock at 6. I just cannot see a world* where JJ starts and he drops a lock.

*If Billy or Hughes were fit this would be different.

[ChequeredJersey]

Hughes might be fit though!

[ChequeredJersey]

I think if we play a lock at 6, we will struggle a bit. Hopefully still win but will be saved by the bench. I know people don’t think our breakdown can be good anyway, but it’s not going to be with lock and Robshaw on the flanks, both locks we’ve played at 6 have struggled to play their usual games esp at the breakdown and defence, Robshaw can play 7 but has looked better at 6 with someone smashing the breakdown in a way our locks don’t

[LondonTiger]

Hughes might be fit though!

Unlikely based on the quotes explaining his call up.

[Poorfour]

My only worry would be the lineout with only Lawes as a recognised specialist, Launchbury is adequate and so is Robshaw. They are going to be up against at least two specialists and 2 pretty good backrow jumpers

I wouldn’t want us to kick for touch much, and we have plenty of lineout options and someone who leads the lineout

Happy to swap Itoje for Launch but I think that leads to a more significant loss in carrying power and I think playing a lock at 6 is just a bad bad bad idea, a lesson we should have learnt ages ago

Itoje / Launchbury / Lawes / Robshaw is a decent set of jumpers with at least one very disruptive jumper. We could add Kruis in place of Launchbury and lose a little carrying but gain in the air and the scrum.

Now that Eddie has allowed Robshaw a 7 shirt again, the back row on Sunday had a kind of unorthodox balance to it. Simmonds and Robshaw got through an immense amount of work and I think that compensated for any deficiencies in having a lock at 6. I don't know if that's what Eddie will pick for Wales, but if he does it would be interesting to see how it goes.

[Guest]

You've got too many options, England! That's your problem!

[LondonTiger]

Jones keeps 25 in camp again. 22 from Italy 23 + Wiggy, Solomona & Mercer

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-retain-players-for-wales-game

[formerly known as Sam]

Fun fact. In the under 20 equivalent of this game the two opposing captains Reffel and White are club mates in the Tigers academy.

I'm not sure Wigglesworth would have been my choice but he does offer a very different option to Care. Care didn't cover himself on glory against Italy, he never really threatened to control the game. Wigglesworth might exert more control and offer a more tactical option for England and maybe stop the Scarlets influenced Welsh attack playing too large a part.

[ChequeredJersey]

Maybe Jones just doenst rate Robson as highly as the internet does. It is a suprise but maybe not a shock. I trust his judgement anyway, Jones has shown he gets it right more often than not.

Jones has pointed to weaknesses in his defence before. In all honesty I don't watch enough of Wasps to know if this is a fair criticism, but it does at least offer an insight as to Jones' thinking.

Fair point. If youre already having to hide Ford someone who can tackle is pretty important, although Id never seen Wigglesworth as especially strong in that regard.

We can argue all day about where the line on cold is, but a 28 month gap for caps is pretty substantial. Youd think that he mustve been doubting his chances of adding to his caps when pushing 35.


Theres bigger issues in the England squad than SH injury cover though. The injuries will test squad depth now they are up against quality opposition.
Oh wait no it not Ireland this week is it

Except, as a big fan of his, being an impressive defender is nothing I not even Care himself would e we claim of Danny Care

[mikey_dragon]

My only worry would be the lineout with only Lawes as a recognised specialist, Launchbury is adequate and so is Robshaw. They are going to be up against at least two specialists and 2 pretty good backrow jumpers

Shingler is a good jumper in the back row, who is the other? AWJ is probably equivalent to Launchbury. I'd say we have the outright best/most athletic jumper in Lawes/Itoje if the line ups are per last week just without a lock at 6

Cory Hill. Possibly Navidi too. Tips on the bench is another primary jumper

[yappysnap]

England have never really asked too much of their 9's, we usually want a safe player who can pass, kick and tackle well, breaks and tries are very secondary to those things, we don't even get them to motivate the forwards and dictate plays, all that comes from the 10s. Scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf.

   The poor, unloved, under-appreciated feckers!

Hmmm, I'm not buying it though.  I've seen plenty of dart and weave and pace setting and evasion and space creating and line breaking from England's 9s.  

Me neither, if that was the case then Wigglesworth would've always been England's first choice throughout Eddie's time in charge as he has by far the best passing and kicking game of all the English SHs. I'd argue that both Youngs and Care fall half-way between these 2 types of games with solid - but far from perfect - basics and the ability raise the tempo and offer a sniping threat.

Honestly 'scrum half is just a link between the ruck and the flyhalf' and 'England have never really asked too much of their 9s' in particular just look like pre-emptive barbs incase the Quins man ends up on the bench. That should really be unnecessary though, Care is far from a one-trick pony and can run the game from the start. His basics are no worse than Youngs' and if he starts ahead of Wigglesworth so should Care.

Nothing like that at all, I was just saying it as I see it. Yes there'll be some breaks but I just think that the 9s primary job is kicking and passing. Breaks can happen but rarely.

I'd be happy with Wigglesworth starting btw, care always seems better coming on. Maybe that extra time to analyse play from the sidelines helps him spot things too.

[LondonTiger]

Limited data and mainly my perceptions, but after Youngs injury England took longer to get the ball from the nreakdown into the First receiver's (usually Ford) hands. Now multiple factors affect this, not just a change in SH but it may be one of the reasons that the Tiger tends to start ahead of teh Quin. I hope it does not impact on this weekend though. Care is the better SH nowadays and unless we plan to play it tight better suited to being on the field for the longest amount of time.


As to a previous point about hiding Ford in defence - we are obviously pretty rubbish at it as he was the only back whose tackle count hit double figures.

[TightHEAD]

Why do Wales announce their team so early?

[Scottrf]

Why do Wales announce their team so early?

Because they only have 23 international class players.

[Guest]

Why do Wales announce their team so early?

Because they only have 23 international class players.

Boom!

[Scottrf]

Why do Wales announce their team so early?

Because they only have 23 international class players.

Boom!

Hey, this thread was getting a bit tame and respectful.

[TightHEAD]

Why do Wales announce their team so early?

Because they only have 23 international class players.

So how many 'World Class' do they have?

[Guest]

Why do Wales announce their team so early?

Because they only have 23 international class players.

So how many 'World Class' do they have?

22 plus Josh Adams, who will be world class by the end of the tournament

[Scottrf]

England team to face Wales at Twickenham on Saturday:



Should be enough for the win.

[TightHEAD]

Josh is the leading scorer in the Aviva Prem, so he has to be world class!!!!

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