Reserve players in Japan

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:49 am

Just noticed this, in a report about the Wallabies:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/wallabies-fly-into-storm-as-dempsey-talks-up-leader-pocock-20190909-p52pe2.html

...two players, Jack Maddocks and Tom Banks, had flown over on a separate flight, surplus to requirements but there to allow Michael Cheika to run two full teams at training in Odawara this week.

Under World Cup rules the pair will be allowed to stay and train with the group until Saturday and then will likely station themselves somewhere nearby should injury force the Wallabies to draft them in.

Australia employed a similar insurance policy in 2015, taking two extra forwards, James Hanson and Sam Carter, for training in the lead-up. The pair played in Australia's warm-up against the USA in Chicago and then parked themselves in Europe when the tournament started in England.

The move paid off when Will Skelton and Wycliff Palu were injured in the final group game against Uruguay. Hanson and Carter joined the squad immediately, although neither player saw game time during the tournament.

We often joke about how players might want to hang around close to a World Cup, to be Johnny-on-the-spot should injury strike. Hadn't realized Australia have that as a formal part of their preparation.

As far as I know, the only active England player likely to be in Japan is Wigglesworth, who is apparently going to do some coaching with Canada.

From the Home Nations, Japan is a bit closer than the tournaments in Australia and NZ but it's still a 12 hour flight, and 8 hour time difference, not counting the time it takes to get to and from airports. I vaguely recall hearing that a reserve player must be in Japan for 48 hours before they can be put on a team sheet. That means you probably need to call someone up four days before a match if you want them on the bench.




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Post by carpet baboon on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 8:57 am

Can see a few South Korean resorts being full of rugby players

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:04 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Just noticed this, in a report about the Wallabies:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/wallabies-fly-into-storm-as-dempsey-talks-up-leader-pocock-20190909-p52pe2.html

...two players, Jack Maddocks and Tom Banks, had flown over on a separate flight, surplus to requirements but there to allow Michael Cheika to run two full teams at training in Odawara this week.

Under World Cup rules the pair will be allowed to stay and train with the group until Saturday and then will likely station themselves somewhere nearby should injury force the Wallabies to draft them in.

Australia employed a similar insurance policy in 2015, taking two extra forwards, James Hanson and Sam Carter, for training in the lead-up. The pair played in Australia's warm-up against the USA in Chicago and then parked themselves in Europe when the tournament started in England.

The move paid off when Will Skelton and Wycliff Palu were injured in the final group game against Uruguay. Hanson and Carter joined the squad immediately, although neither player saw game time during the tournament.

We often joke about how players might want to hang around close to a World Cup, to be Johnny-on-the-spot should injury strike. Hadn't realized Australia have that as a formal part of their preparation.

As far as I know, the only active England player likely to be in Japan is Wigglesworth, who is apparently going to do some coaching with Canada.

From the Home Nations, Japan is a bit closer than the tournaments in Australia and NZ but it's still a 12 hour flight, and 8 hour time difference, not counting the time it takes to get to and from airports. I vaguely recall hearing that a reserve player must be in Japan for 48 hours before they can be put on a team sheet. That means you probably need to call someone up four days before a match if you want them on the bench.





It's a good tactic for a world cup so far away (far for us in the UK.  Not so far for Oz I suppose).  With flight times and jet lag it can take a player called up a couple of days until he's able to train and play.  So having them there on 'holiday' and raring to go is a smart move.

I know Gatland was criticized for the 'geography 8' thing in NZ and the calling up of Shane Williams in Oz, etc. for the Lions.  And elements of the criticism I agree with.  But in the case of Shane Williams, Gatland genuinely felt that calling up a replacement who couldn't train or play for a few days was pointless and would actually miss the intended game (a midweek match where there was a shortage of wingers and where a Lions test match winger would have been needed instead).  Whereas Williams was playing club rugby in Japan and could come in and act as cannon fodder in a warm up match, and be happy to do so, hit the ground running with no jet lag, which then meant Gatland didn't need to risk injuring a test match player needlessly.  So it makes sense to have players locally to call on if need be.
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Post by tigertattie on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 9:30 am

The Lions is different. It is, for want of a better expression, an exhibition series of matches. Think of Oz coming over here for the AIs and in game 3 they're down to 2 fit 2nd rows and need someone to bench, it's entirely allowed for them to ask Will Skelton, playing club rugby in England, to rock up for the game.

The World Cup though is a competition which has rules and these rules are there to stop the Tier 1 nations taking 70 players while the "smaller" teams like Uruguay or Namibia can only managed to find 31 guys remotely capable of running around against fully pro teams!
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Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 12:26 pm

tigertattie wrote:The Lions is different. It is, for want of a better expression, an exhibition series of matches. Think of Oz coming over here for the AIs and in game 3 they're down to 2 fit 2nd rows and need someone to bench, it's entirely allowed for them to ask Will Skelton, playing club rugby in England, to rock up for the game.

The World Cup though is a competition which has rules and these rules are there to stop the Tier 1 nations taking 70 players while the "smaller" teams like Uruguay or Namibia can only managed to find 31 guys remotely capable of running around against fully pro teams!


I know. I was just giving examples of the practicalities of playing matches very far away from home. Even the smaller nations might have to call up injury replacements, regardless of how much quality they have in the squad. Having someone fly out and not be able to do anything for a few days due to jet lag would be the same for the smaller countries too. So for everyone, having a couple of players 'on holiday' locally would be a good move.
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Post by Poorfour on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 1:53 pm

But for the likes of Fiji or Samoa. the cost of having extra players on the ground - whether paid for by the union or by the players themselves - is likely to be a major factor.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 2:08 pm

Very few sides will have reserve players near by (is Korea the closest they could be?). 

Preventing it will be:

1) NH Domestic season about to start
2) Cost
3) Taking players out of thir clubs and putting them in a resort near to Japan would see them close but losing sharpness.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 3:05 pm

I’d forgotten that this was during the season. So yes, not practical to have players on the ground locally. Was thinking the off-season and players taking themselves off on holiday, self funded, to the general vicinity of the tour/competition.
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Post by robbo277 on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 3:49 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Just noticed this, in a report about the Wallabies:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/wallabies-fly-into-storm-as-dempsey-talks-up-leader-pocock-20190909-p52pe2.html

...two players, Jack Maddocks and Tom Banks, had flown over on a separate flight, surplus to requirements but there to allow Michael Cheika to run two full teams at training in Odawara this week.

Under World Cup rules the pair will be allowed to stay and train with the group until Saturday and then will likely station themselves somewhere nearby should injury force the Wallabies to draft them in.

Australia employed a similar insurance policy in 2015, taking two extra forwards, James Hanson and Sam Carter, for training in the lead-up. The pair played in Australia's warm-up against the USA in Chicago and then parked themselves in Europe when the tournament started in England.

The move paid off when Will Skelton and Wycliff Palu were injured in the final group game against Uruguay. Hanson and Carter joined the squad immediately, although neither player saw game time during the tournament.

We often joke about how players might want to hang around close to a World Cup, to be Johnny-on-the-spot should injury strike. Hadn't realized Australia have that as a formal part of their preparation.

As far as I know, the only active England player likely to be in Japan is Wigglesworth, who is apparently going to do some coaching with Canada.

From the Home Nations, Japan is a bit closer than the tournaments in Australia and NZ but it's still a 12 hour flight, and 8 hour time difference, not counting the time it takes to get to and from airports. I vaguely recall hearing that a reserve player must be in Japan for 48 hours before they can be put on a team sheet. That means you probably need to call someone up four days before a match if you want them on the bench.




I think you have to be named 48 hours before you fly out. So if someone broke their leg on a Saturday and you picked your replacement Sunday, you would name your replacement and have him fly out on the same day, so it would probably be the same 48 hours?

There was an exception for Argentina in the 2015 bronze final who named a prop within the 48 hour window, and he was allowed to bench as an injury replacement only - due to it being front row.

England in 2011 called Waldrom up to come out and visit NZ about a week before they named him in the squad. He wasn't allowed to join up with the squad but it helped him get used to the time difference while they made a decision on their squad. If someone key like Youngs, for instance, gets a knock, we could see Spencer called to Japan but not up to the squad, and then Jones could wait for further developments with Youngs recovery or an injury to another player where he doesn't need cover (e.g. back 3) before adding him to the squad.

Taking a speculative forward seems a little odd. I suppose we could take maybe Alex Dombrandt in this way, as he covers the entire back 5 (where we are a little light). You'd have to take two though so he had someone to keep him company, so maybe Spencer as well. Do they get on?

But as LT says, if you keep them there for the pool stages and then they are drafted in for the knockouts, they haven't played or even trained properly in a month.

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Post by Poorfour on Wed 11 Sep 2019, 4:57 pm

I don't think there's any restriction on when you fly someone out, but they are not allowed to be selected or to train with the squad until 48 hours after the replacement has been named. The flight time can count towards that as far as I can see - but I couldn't find World Rugby's page on it.
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