Should National Unions Prevent Players Playing Abroad?

It has been a contentious issue recently, many fans cant fathom the idea that James Hook, or Jonny Wilkinson would be spurned or ignored by their National coaches because they choose to ply their trade abroad. A national Union without central contracting has little ability to restrain the flow of talent away from home shores to wealthy leagues in France and England, or even Japan without stating that their National team selection will be around such criteria.

But are the coaches right to try to keep their players in the league? Major clubs in Europe need to bring in plenty of foreign talent to compete in the Heineken European Cup, because everyone else does, teams full of National stars don't do well in Europe.

Players gain masses of experience playing under new regimes abroad, new styles, new emphasis, it broadens their abilities and re-ignites their interests as players as well as culturally.

So will they really be ignored?

Can England do without Haskell, Wilkinson, Tom Palmer even Cipriani? Wales without Hook, Byrne, Henson, Phillips and Delve?


The Regions in Wales, and I am sure if Johnson is serious about this with England, the clubs in England will want a very precise clarification on the rule. It will dramatically reduce the teams spending costs when they can offer less money in contracts to Players with international ambitions.

The other argument is lack of availability, the English organisation Premiership Rugby constantly prevent international players playing for their countries even when the players do not have commitments and are released by their clubs. The French Clubs always want to keep their players away from International Rugby teams. Some clubs only offer contracts if International players retire from International rugby.

Though I am convinced there will be little implementation of the "stay at home" rules for senior players it, certainly in Wales, will effect Colts far more.

But with the money on offer to young rugby players to play abroad it is hard for them to abide by their National Governing bodies wishes, especially if they are third choice and guaranteed little game time at home.

As Gatland pointed out keeping players at home doesnt work unless you also have comeplete control over the clubs and get to pick and choose when and where the players play. Having Hook at Ospreys didnt mean he was playing at flyt half.
In which case you might as well just call the club game a joke and admit that the national set up has utter contempt for the majority of week in week out club rugby supporters in favour of the " i only watch internationals" brigade. Of course in Wales they already did this by regionalising the game.
I have big worries about what complete central control of rugby would mean. To be honest though with the inexorable slide toward corporatisation of the clubs in England, even those like Tigers who have tried to hold onto their soul rather than selling it to South Adfrican devils, its not like theres that much left to fight for now anyway.
Portnoy would have it that Sir Woodward will come in and Equalise everything in the English game form his shineing white tower on the hill. All players will be owned as his slaves and chattels and play to please him. Their lives will be dedicated solely to the pursuit of Englands glory. Foriegners will flood here not to take our players jobs but come at a young age with the intention of becoming productive mebers of our society and swear alleiagence to the RFU before they are 10 ( sometimes diiscovering long lost ancestral links) then dedicate their lives to "Team England". The RFU laboratory will work tirelesly to create genetic freaks ( have you seen the academy side? theres no way those are humans). And one day they will rise back to being recognised as the best side in the world by everyone excepyt the Greyghost thanks to some dodgy reffing by Wayne Barnes.
Infact SCC should probably be elected as MAster of the Universe then he can sort of Welsh rugby as well. I suspect Scottish rugby might be a bit too much for even him though, but I guess they can continue to poach enough England age group internationals to keep going.


I may be exageratting a point there.

very funny post mate...!

I think that any union worth its salt should try to create incentives to keep their international contingent playing at home. However if a player is good enough he gets selected.

For example nearly every player in the Irish squad plays at home. But Tommy Bowe doesn't and still gets picked.

"But with the money on offer to young rugby players to play abroad it is hard for them to abide by their National Governing bodies wishes, especially if they are third choice and guaranteed little game time at home."

If these players are third choice and guaranteed little game time at home then they're not in line for an immediate international call up. They can move abroad, broaden their horizons, improve themselves as players and make names for themselves before coming home and fighting for places in the National side.

Or, they can move abroad, broaden their horizons, improve themselves as players and make names for themselves before fighting for places in the National side of their new adopted nation, the nation that gave them a chance and all the support required to make it as a professional rugby player.

I have no problem either way. A country like Scotland that seems to export large numberstheir capped Internationals are never going to lose them to another country, but retain no control of their elite players. If you lose "all" your non-capped players, then they could decide to play for the country that took them in (if as I expect Ben Morgan does end up representing Wales at a senior level, that will be case in point).

However, I think by and large you want to select players who are playing at home. Haskell is out of Stade Francais and might move back to England. I would look at making exceptions for Palmer and Wilkinson for the 2012 Six Nations while we bring replacements through, but if they aren't looking to move back for the 2012/13 season I probably wouldn't take them to South Africa. Lawes, Deacon, Attwood and Kitchener can offer us options at lock, with players like Botha, Robson, Skivington and Day covering from the Saxons, while Flood and Hodgson will be our 10s, with Myler, Clegg and eventually Farrell and Ford covering. Yes, we might be slightly weaker in the immediate short-term, but I think we'll reap the rewards long-term if we show strength now.

robbo277 wrote:
Or, they can move abroad, broaden their horizons, improve themselves as players and make names for themselves before fighting for places in the National side of their new adopted nation, the nation that gave them a chance and all the support required to make it as a professional rugby player.

Good example being Ben Morgan, ignored by England developed in Wales

In Wales if you play for the U20s you are then only eligible for Wales so England wont be able to poach Steven Shingler. Though the PR ltd will probably restrict him from being available for Welsh duties if selected at U20s or other.

Was this all just a front for a England Vs Wales debate?

You quoted everything from that paragraph except for how Ben Morgan was a case in point, then made that point yourself. As I said here and on other threads, it's up to Morgan. Either he says he's English and only wants to play for England, or he says he wants to play for the country that gave him a chance.

And precisely what the PRL and Shingler has to do with the debate I'm not sure. However, the PRL (who only ever operate within their rights regarding International Player release set out by the IRB, so I don't know why they are always the bad guys) is one illustration of where allowing your players to move abroad can be dangerous, as you just won't get as much access, as you can't set up deals with every major league just incase a player you want to pick decides to move there.

Is it true to say that a team full of home players can't compete on the European stage?
If you are to take the winners of the HC from recent years, Tigers, Leinster, Munster, Toulouse, when these teams are at their peak, the key players and bulk of each side are in the international squad, aren't they?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Portnoy would have it that Sir Woodward will come in and Equalise everything in the English game form his shineing white tower on the hill. All players will be owned as his slaves and chattels and play to please him. Their lives will be dedicated solely to the pursuit of Englands glory. Foriegners will flood here not to take our players jobs but come at a young age with the intention of becoming productive mebers of our society and swear alleiagence to the RFU before they are 10 ( sometimes diiscovering long lost ancestral links) then dedicate their lives to "Team England". The RFU laboratory will work tirelesly to create genetic freaks ( have you seen the academy side? theres no way those are humans). And one day they will rise back to being recognised as the best side in the world by everyone excepyt the Greyghost thanks to some dodgy reffing by Wayne Barnes.
Infact SCC should probably be elected as MAster of the Universe then he can sort of Welsh rugby as well. I suspect Scottish rugby might be a bit too much for even him though, but I guess they can continue to poach enough England age group internationals to keep going.


I may be exaggerating a point there.

Whatever point(s) amongst that ramble were being directed at at me are at the very least disingenuous.

I don't like being spun like that. I welcome honest debate but please don't misrepresent me.

It demeans us both.

maestegmafia wrote:

robbo277 wrote:
Or, they can move abroad, broaden their horizons, improve themselves as players and make names for themselves before fighting for places in the National side of their new adopted nation, the nation that gave them a chance and all the support required to make it as a professional rugby player.

Good example being Ben Morgan, ignored by England developed in Wales

In Wales if you play for the U20s you are then only eligible for Wales so England wont be able to poach Steven Shingler. Though the PR ltd will probably restrict him from being available for Welsh duties if selected at U20s or other.

Or Geordan Murphy who quite happily plays for Ireland despite having being almost entirely developed as a rugby player by Tigers.

robbo277 wrote:Was this all just a front for a England Vs Wales debate?

No this is a debate about whether the Coaches should judge limit selection to players playing in their home leagues and not using players that have taken high wages and new challenges abroad.

In Wales if you play for the U20s you are then only eligible for Wales so England wont be able to poach Steven Shingler. Though the PR ltd will probably restrict him from being available for Welsh duties if selected at U20s or other.[/quote]

I thought that ruling had (rightly) been binned?

The Unions can't stop players playing abroad but then on the flip side the National Coach doesn't have to pick them.

We only have to look at the fuss that has been caused over recent years with player release to see why Gatland would want tokeep his players in Wales.

Its also upto the players to be clever when negotiating contracts, for example Mitchells contract doesn't start until after 4 Aug so he is eligible for all WC squad training sessions etc.

Some countries like Scotland are not in a position to keep our best talent playing here since we just don't have the cash.

Ireland have an unwitten rule similar to that being discussed above. Basically, the IRFU have stated that should a selction deciosn be 50:50 then if one player is playing at home and the other away then the Ireland based player should get selected.

Tommy Bowe & Geordon Murphy are the exceptions to this rule and at least T ommy is in the Rab with the Ospreys. Does such a policy have draw backs? Yes. Do its benefits (in and for Ireland & the Provinces) outweigh said drawbacks? Most certainly yes.

Also, I'll point out that while thwer has certainly been and continues to be a very productive NIQ element at Munster, Leinster & Ulster, the vast majority of their respective squads are Irish and, perhaps more importnatly, the HC winning teams have all been 80%+ Irish. So I'd contest the point that any side (English, Irish or otherwise) NEEDS to invest in foreign talent.

Leinster could field a pretty decent all IQ XV. Munster can too but not to same extent.

Healy, Cronin, Ross
Cullen, McLaughlin
O'Brien, Heaslip, Jennings
Redda, Sexton
Darcy, O'Driscoll
Fitzgerald, Kearney, Horgan

Munster next season could field:

Horan, Valey/Sherry/Flannery, Archer
DOC, POC or MOD, Nagle or Ryan
Coughlan, Leamy, Wallace with alternates of Ryan, Ronan (not your fav player Stag I know!) and probaly three or four more that wouldn't weaken the BR too much

9. Murray/Stringer/TOL
10. ROG/Keatley
11. Zebo
12. J. Murphy/Barnes
13. Earls/Barnes
14. Hurley
15. Jones.

16. Varley/Sherry/Fla
17.......
18....... Is Timmy Ryan 'coming home' any time soon?
19. MOD, POC, DOC or Ryan
20. Ryan, Ronan, Leamy etc
21. Murray, Strings or TOL
22. ROG or Keatley
23. Murphy or Barnes

I've seen worse teamsheets but sweet f-all Irish cover in the proping depatement as it stands. Are there any acadamy players or youngs club players that I have overlooked?

The Welsh regions are not far off being able to play without their NWQ players too.

That is the main reason that I am happy that senior players are allowed to look for contracts abroad, or so it appears.

The experience gained at Clermont made steven Jones a much better player, similarly for Gareth Thomas at Toulon.

I hope that this years exodus contingent improve themselves abroad as much and bring that improvement into the Welsh set up after.

Though on the other note there are some very exciting young players in Wales check out this XV...!

Bevington, Hibbard, Gardiner, Shingler, Welch, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Webb, Tovey, Harry Robinson, Ashley Beck, Scot Williams, Tom Prydie, Stephan Jones.

All should be starring for their Regions and hopefully nudging the international doors over the next season or so...!

Regional Rugby and its academies are working well, maybe this means senior players encouragement at the regions is not as necessary as we first thought? Certainly if you look at Ireland as a model for Regionalism and its development of youth talent you notice that the Stars like O'Driscoll et al are only on the team sheet for the big games and are also unavailable for much of the year with International commitments.


Do you Irish lads think it would hurt Leinster if O'Driscoll or Munster's Paul O'Connell too contracts with high paying French or English Teams ?

maestegmafia wrote:The Welsh regions are not far off being able to play without their NWQ players too.

............Though on the other note there are some very exciting young players in Wales check out this XV...!

Bevington, Hibbard, Gardiner, Shingler, Welch, Lydiate, .................

London Irish are relocating to Wales? Are they going to be playing in the Premiership or the Rab?

Aaron Shingler, the lock/back rower, Plays for the scarlets.

His brother steven Shingler, the Flyhalf has moved to London Irish.

maestegmafia wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Was this all just a front for a England Vs Wales debate?

No this is a debate about whether the Coaches should judge limit selection to players playing in their home leagues and not using players that have taken high wages and new challenges abroad.

Obviously. But, and maybe I'm being oversensitive, but the phrase "so England wont be able to poach Steven Shingler" sounds provocative to me. I defy you to name one player that England Rugby has "poached". To me, poaching is a ridonkulous expression that doesn't mean anything. How can you poach a player? Surely the player has to be complicit in any decision?

Dewi Morris

Crud that guy makes me cringe. I remember Scott Quinnell shaming him on telly:

Dewi: No Scott, it's pronounced "Dawee"

Scott: No, your name is Dewi and it's pronounced "Dewi"

Didn't see the little welshman who would be english say much more after that. Then again whatever the Mighty Quinn says is likely to be agreed upon!

To OP, is it right to put so much pressure on young players to stay if they cannot be guaranteed decent game/development time, a good wage and a competitive team (kind of chicken and egg that one) to play in. Its a tough one, I can appreciate why the nation team coaches want control but that is only 1 side of the equation. If I had the chance to sample Toulouse, Durban, Melbourne or Auckland before getting trapped in married life I'd jump at it.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Some countries like Scotland are not in a position to keep our best talent playing here since we just don't have the cash.

NZ has the same problem

maestegmafia wrote:Aaron Shingler, the lock/back rower, Plays for the scarlets.

His brother steven Shingler, the Flyhalf has moved to London Irish.

Correct me if Im wrong but werent they born in England anyway?