Ulster Rugby 2022/2023

First topic message reminder :

Thought it was time for an update on the thread so this is the new all things Ulster thread.

Moxham starting at 13 up against Farrell will be interesting.

Shame about milasinovich. Looked like he could have been a decent player

I think he is a decent players - but he is a dick and Ulster would rather get rid.

We have a fantastic squad atmosphere and are not prepared to let one bad apple ruin it

How come Treadwell doesn't start more? He's dynamic got good pace and size, decent hands.
Is it a scrumaging thing?

With Izzy injured the starters are
AOC and Henderson.
Treadwell and Carter rotate in and out when Hendo is unavailable and to give AOC the occasional week off.
Kearney is injury cover

The fact EOS and Reidy are not mentioned, plus the fact we are looking for a LH suggest to me
Reidy may well retire and EOS will move on

Full credit to Munster for their effort and passion.

From an Ulster point of view, failure to close out a game with a man advantage for the vast majority of the game is quite unforgivable. At the very least it's a clear sign of a team that is still well off the highest standard, but can on occasion pull out unusually good performances.

Yes, our injury list is nearly a top class starting side in itself, but the players on that pitch were no dozers. And yet Ulster's only try was scored against 15 men, and no tries against 14 men for 65 minutes.

That was frankly woeful from Ulster, I cannot believe they kicked the ball away as much as they did and not even good kicks either.

Its like they have a plan to play the game a certain way and under no circumstances can change this be changed even when it is so clearly wrong

Ulster looked like a team that hadn't played in a long time, much like Munster last week.

It shows that Cooneys loyalty of staying an extra year was very important and we should be really grateful, Doak for all his talent isn't going to be ready to take over this season or next. We jave to remember he is still an academy player, so shouldn't be expecting the finished article for a year ot two yet.I think the momentum shifted after Cooney went off not the red card.

As for the over long box kicks, at the time they annoyed me too, but thinking on it with Zebo sent off they would have been stretched at the back, there should have been space in the backfield, which I think he was going for, but Haley played incredibly, he covered the backfield extra space better than anyone could have expected. It also relieved pressure and protected the scoreboard, by pinning Munster back in their own half, if Munster gave awaya penalty there it shoud result in 3 points or lineout and driving maul. But Munster kept their disapline and only conceded one penalty.

Our forwards were out on their feet in the last 20 mins.

Not match fit and it showed

geoff999rugby wrote:Our forwards were out on their feet in the last 20 mins.

Not match fit and it showed

How many if those were the ones recovering from Covid I wonder. Could be a factor.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Colin.

In happier news Baloucoune is definitely training and, I think, McCloskey is

No idea when they will be available

What's the word on the injury front with Luke Marshall and Stockdale?

Good to hear John Cooney talking about why re re signed.
Nothing to do with Ireland.
He wanted to help Doak to develop and he wanted to reach 100 caps for a Provinces - something he did not achieve at Leinster or Connacht

That kind of commitment cannot be undervalued, such a pity Ireland never took him seriously for some unknown reason.

That extra year for Doak will really help him along and should leave him in a much better position when Cooney steps away from Ulster.

As you mentioned previously Geoff, Rob is back in training. Cooney and Hume both doubts ahead of the Saints game. Centre will be an issue if Hume does not recover.

Baloucoune looking certain to be involved

Cooney ruled out of the Saints game and Jared Payne is leaving Ulster at the end of the season

Not surprised re Payne

In better news it seems Hume is fit for Sunday, same for Moore

So is it Moore and Hume or Curtis and Hume - at least we can put out two proper centres this week

I've no issues with Moore and Hume as our centres, and if Balacoune, McIlroy and Doak start that surely would be a contender for youngest average age of a backline, at least in a European game? Old man Gilroy might skew the average a bit though

Pick Lyttle instead of Gilroy

Not surprised about Jared? What's the story there, G? He looking to move upwards? Did he go for the assistant coach job?

Don Alfonso wrote:Not surprised about Jared? What's the story there, G? He looking to move upwards? Did he go for the assistant coach job?

Payne is going to Clermont. Linking up with Gibbes again.

Payne wanted the attack coach job than Soper got when Peel left.

I am pretty certain that is why he left.
I don’t blame him.

Disappointing about Payne leaving, but nobody stays for ever.  What is the likelihood of promoting from within, or will it be someone recruited from outside?

More immediately the teams for Sunday are out :

Northampton: Furbank; Skosan, Litchfield, Hutchinson, Collins; Biggar, Mitchell; Waller, Matavesi, Hill; Ribbans, Nansen; Lawes, Ludlam (capt), Harrison.

Replacements: Fish, Iyogun, Painter, Ratuniyarawa, Coles, Augustus, James, Freeman

Ulster: Lowry; Baloucoune, Hume, Moore, McIlroy; Burns, Doak; Warwick, Herring, Moore, A O'Connor (capt), Treadwell, Marcus Rea, Timoney, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Andrew, O'Sullivan, O'Toole, Carter, Jones, Shanahan, Madigan, Moxham.

Looks the best we can expect given the injuries, and nice to see Madigan back on the bench.  Hoping for the win in an open game, but not sure what to expect after last week.

With the exception of Lichfield and Nansen that is pretty close to a full XV for Saints.

I fear Henderson, Cooney and McCloskey being missing will be too much.
They need a win more than we do.

One things for certain we need more game management from half back.
It says a lot when I think this is as likely to come from a 20 year old making his first European start as it is from our 10.
Timoney and Rea need to get into the faces of Mitchell and Biggar otherwise they could have a field day.

While "they need a win more than we do" is certainly true in the context of the competition, we need to get some consistency. And it needs to be consistently good.

As you say there seems to be a lot of pressure on Doak when he should be just gaining experience at this level. Good or bad this will be just one more game in his education, so we shouldn't read too much into it either way.

Average age of that backline 22.86 years old. That's even with Billy Burns who's frankly ancient at 27 compared to the others lol

geoff999rugby wrote:Alex Moon, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Matt Proctor.

I fear Henderson, Cooney and McCloskey being missing will be too much.
They need a win more than we do.

One things for certain we need more game management from half back.
It says a lot when I think this is as likely to come from a 20 year old making his first European start as it is from our 10.
Timoney and Rea need to get into the faces of Mitchell and Biggar otherwise they could have a field day.

There are a few others that could be in there, the 23 anyway: Alex Moon, Taqele Naiyaravoro, Matt Proctor, Piers Francis, Mikey Haywood, Fraser Dingwall, Ollie Sleightholme Augustus and Freeman are only just coming back from injuries. Hutchinson, as good as he is at 12 is a 13 and behind both Proctor and Dingwall in selection plus probably Francis. Proctor and Dingwall have been the coaches favourite partnership whenever available.

Last week was Collins first game for a while, he is now behind Skosan, Freeman Sleightholme and Naiyaravoro in the pecking order.

A strong team, especially in the forwards, but a long way from the best backs Saints could have put out if available, probably only Furbank and possibly Skosan as definite starters in the back 5.

I see the point but I did say pretty close and none of the other 13 look out of place in a starting Saints XV
Henderson, Cooney and McCloskey Ulster probably missing their three most important players (at this stage that included Vermuelen, it’s about what the replacement players can’t provide)

What in the actual f is Madigan doing with that tap 5 metres out, they are lined up on the line infront of you they are always going to stop you, idiot. This is why I go on about Ulster bad decision making

Good win. Go get 'em the rest of the way.

Ulster clearly the better team, though I thought Saints might have a shot near the end. But once again, Saints started to feel their oats and started to play frantically again, when patience was in order.

Delighted with that.
Burns was much better, Lowry was superb, Baloucounce was excellent as was Hume.
We were so much shaper, Lawes aside Saints we’re really poor

Great win making a very enjoyable afternoon at Franklins Gardens. I think Ulster were always the better team, but Saints battled and refused to go away. I was surprised at their lack of invention in attack (apart from the 2 tries) whereas Ulster were more positive and usually had runners coming onto the ball at pace.

I had a feeling that Madigan would something b*tsh*t crazy when he came on, and it proved to be true. The quick tap was madness and why didn't he go long with the last restart?

Still, an excellent win. Crisis? What crisis?

Hume was excellent again today, I'd be very surprised if he isn't in the running to be a starting centre for Ireland during 6 nations.

Lowry was great and big Rob on his return. Thought Marcus Rea had another solid game in the backrow too.

Anyone up for a discussion about our options at 10?  It seems a bit disrespectful after the good win at Northampton but it seems a position where we are lacking strength in depth.  Burns was okay on Sunday, good to see Madigan back but what was he thinking?  Lowry was great at 15 but should he be playing 10?

I don't think we can be consistently great until we get a better 10.  I know Geoff reckons that will be Lowry, but I'm not convinced yet.  I think he needs a run of games as the starting 10 to state his case but then comes the follow on question of who moves to 15.  Addison should be coming back, but history suggests it may not be for long.

The fact Burns has Irish caps is more of a statement about the the coaching tickets lack of confidence in the back-ups to Sexton the anything else.  

Are there any youngsters coming through the Academy?  Do we need to look to the other provinces for someone looking for game time?  Madigan was never the most reliable game manager, but could still provide mentoring and a back-up option.

Views?

Lowry may be a top quality ten but we wont know that unless he plays there, unfortunately for him Addison has had so many injury issues recently and Lowry is so good at fullback that he has been played there. From an Ulster perspective that's understandable as it is better to have Burns at 10 with Lowry 15 than to have Lowry at ten and then have someone else in the back 3.

Having said that I'd like to see Lowry at 10 when we play some of the smaller teams, that way the drop off in the back 3 from him not being there wouldn't be so problematic.

In terms of Academy I think the only 10 there is David Humphreys kid (James) he has played at U-20 level for Ireland so theres clearly some talent there.

Against some of the smaller teams we should probably be looking at alternatives even if it is only for squad depth but I think from what I have seen the coaching staff are happy with Burns at 10 and at the min have Madigan to back him up and Lowry in a pinch so they most likely won't look at that.

Lowry will play virtually no time at 10 whilst Addison is injured.
The original plan was for him to get game time at 10 from the bench and see how he goes.
As soon as Addison got injured that went out the window and he became the no1 15.

As to Humphrey’s jnr I’ve seen, or heard, nothing to suggest he is good enough.


On other news it looks like Stockdale and, probably, Murphy will play no part for the rest of this season

geoff999rugby wrote:Lowry will play virtually no time at 10 whilst Addison is injured.
The original plan was for him to get game time at 10 from the bench and see how he goes.
As soon as Addison got injured that went out the window and he became the no1 15.

As to Humphrey’s jnr I’ve seen, or heard, nothing to suggest he is good enough.


On other news it looks like Stockdale and, probably, Murphy will play no part for the rest of this season

Why not play Gilroy at 15 for URC games to allow Lowry time at 10?  Also should we not be developing someone as 15 because the odds appear to be against Addison being a long term option.  I very much hope he recovers but his injury history is very poor.  Would McIlroy or Moxham be prospects as 15?  Its a lot of shuffling around but I think there needs to be some succession planning.

Very disappointing about Stockdale and Murphy, but their backups have been doing a great job, so long as they remain healthy.

I think its Burns 10 and Lowry 15
because the management think that is better than
Lowry 10 and Gilroy 15

I am not Burns biggest fan but I 100% agree with that analysis

Moxham I would have nowhere near 15.
He is a big unit but has a lot to learn, if he is capable

MCIlroy would be a good idea but them again no Stockdale, Baloucoune often being missing has rather forced the hand there as well

I'd have to say that the coaching team's view is likely to be infinitely better informed than mine, but we need to keep the forum ticking over with some speculation, irrespective of the level usually .

I worry that the uncertainty at 15 is having too big an impact on the progression at 10, entirely due to Lowry's qualities in both positions.  My personal view is that Paddy Wallace never achieved all he could have had he had fewer positional switches during his early career. I would hate that to happen to Lowry. I don't know which will be his best position, but I do believe he is likely to be exceptional at one and that is better than being good at 2 or more.

Looking forward Ulster also don't have a lot of games where they could afford a drop off in quality from 15, the URC has meant they will need to finish top 8 (maybe top 7) in order to make the Champions Cup next year.

Whenn you look at the games theres not a lot of easy games where you could slide Lowry into 10 and take a hit in the back 3 especially without Addison or Stockdale being available.

They still have to play Scarlets, Cardiff, Munster and Sharks at Kingspan.

The 2 missed interpros v Connacht and Leinster

Also away ties to Dragons, Stormers, Bulls and Edinburgh.

Dragons may be the easiest tie there and yet we do tend to struggle v them at Rodney Parade

When did we last develop a home grown 15? Yes, Lowry is currently our 15 - but he wasn't developed as a 15, was he? He went there out of necessity, and had the natural ability to become good at that position, but unless memory fails me, it wasn't the position they had him earmarked for was it?

Before that we had Addison (a signing), Stockdale (because of IRFU influence), Payne, Piutau, Terblance, and even as far back as that Australian kid whose name I've forgotten.

Have I forgotten a home grown out and out 15?


UPDATE: Add in Lealifano and Henry Speight!

UPDATE2: Sincere apologies for leaving out Luis Ludik!!!

clivemcl wrote:When did we last develop a home grown 15? Yes, Lowry is currently our 15 - but he wasn't developed as a 15, was he? He went there out of necessity, and had the natural ability to become good at that position, but unless memory fails me, it wasn't the position they had him earmarked for was it?

Before that we had Addison (a signing), Stockdale (because of IRFU influence), Payne, Piutau, Terblance, and even as far back as that Australian kid whose name I've forgotten.

Have I forgotten a home grown out and out 15?


UPDATE: Add in Lealifano and Henry Speight!

UPDATE2: Sincere apologies for leaving out Luis Ludik!!!

D'Arcy I think is the Australian kid isn't he? I suppose the last 15 to play any games was McIlwaine and that didn't work out for more than a few games.

We made quite a few back 3 players but no real out and out 15's, more like wingers who can play 15 mostly.

D'arcy - that's the one! I distinctly remember a try against a French side - not sure if he scored it, but it was his initial break I think from deep inside our half!

Was Nelson a 15 who was pushed into the 10 shirt, or a 10 pushed to 15?  I remember him playing both positions but not setting things alight in either. Last time I saw him was as the Canadian 10 in the World Cup I think.

It is a good point that we appear to be able to produce wingers, but not true full backs (or fly halves).  But then I don't think any club side can produce talent in every position all the time.

Forgot about Nelson, I think he started as fullback for Ulster and later became a ten

Cunningham of course.

I feel certain that the backup 15 is McIlroy with Gilroy coming in on the winger and Lyttle being the backup

Burns can't play every game at 10, we will need to rest him and play either Madigan or Lowry at some point.

For fullback I'm not sure why Madigan hasn't been given a run there, he played fullback a number of times at Leinster when Gopperth was the FH, and it seams to be in vouge in NZ to have a second playmaker at 15.

Would like to see Lowry at 10 and Madigan at 15 in some games, and if doesn't work they can just switch durning the game. Or even have them switch on certain plays to have defences guessing? Would also allow Madigan some more gametime as I thought itbwas a bit of a risk having him on the bench last weekend, in a bigbgame haveing not played this season, and he did appear a bit keen to show what he can do.

On a different tangent, the double tackle on Lowry in the Munster game has been bothering me.

Firstly I'd want to make it clear I wouldnt want to see either player banned as it has no advantage to Ulster or Irish rugby, but the way it was handled really has me questioning the integrity of the league.

Firstly why did the ref not look at Crowleys tackle and run through the high tackle protocol? As a fan I thought that he should have reviewed both on the pitch, why can I see that and the ref and TMO couldnt?

2) Fair play to Lowry for bouncing straight back up, but would it have been more professional to have stayed down? Would the ref have reviewed both and given a double red card? Would the citing commission been so lienant?

3) when reviewed by the citing commission, how did they comebtobthe conclusion Zebo didn't deserve a red?

4) Do players or incidents get referred to the citing commission? I thought it was incidents, as such Crowleys tackle could be reviewed as it was a double tackle? If players they how did the citing commissior not include Crowleys tackle with Zebos for review?

Like I said I didn't want any players banned, but to me it looks like it was a whitewash to help Munster out in a big European game. If Crowley had been banned, Munster would had to play their 4th choice outhalf or Scannel at FH. But coming to the conclusion it did, it left both players free to play in a big game. I cant see how the Ref, TMO and then Citing officer all made mistakes to give Munster the best possible outcome, it looks to me that the commission found a way to give Munster the best chance in Europe.

How could the Ref and TMO not review it durning the game? How could the citing commissior not refer an incident or if can't both tacklers, but rather just one tackler in a double tackle? And how could the commission find Zebos tackle to be ok and all blame on Crowley, who for some reason wasnt referred?

It just doesn't sit right with me.

Citing is a joke.

Both Farrell and Zebo should be banned at the present time.