Six Nations: Italy should face prospect of relegation - Warburton

From the BBC

Italy should face the prospect of relegation from the Six Nations after their 50-10 hammering by France in the 2021 tournament opener, according to former Wales captain Sam Warburton.

The Azzurri suffered a 28th consecutive Six Nations defeat in a seven-tries-to-one trouncing in Rome.

Warburton said: "I think enough's enough now.

"Italy just don't have the strength in depth from a playing pool point of view."

The former two-tour British and Irish Lions captain says Georgia, who have dominated Europe's second tier in recent years, should be given the chance to take over from Italy in the Six Nations via a play-off.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55972682

Do you agree.. I don't fully. I agree, that Italy don't have the international strength, and is just the side that the five others look to putting a cricket score on to gain BPs. So yes I believe they should lose their 6 Nations place, but I don't believe Georgia is the answer, as they are likely to be as bad.

I think the tournament needs to drop back to 5 Nations, and played every other weekend (with one extra rest week) as it used to be. Will give the players needed rest time.

Or, if the money men insist it has to be 6 Nations, then invite the Boks, as time zone wise it will suit them and it will give real competition rather than just making up the numbers. Of course, would have meant this years wouldn't have been played with COVID, but not sure it should in the current climate anyway.

That's my thoughts... anyone agree, disagree.... etc..

Fans and pundits want to see a road map. I'd like to know how Italy are improving. Scotland made it clear many moons ago they would look far and wide to boost their player pool. Are Italy doing the same?

I've always defended Italy's involvement in the 6 nations and I still do, but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing promotion relegation brought in (I think Italy would win the playoff game anyway). I know people automatically look to Georgia as the obvious candidate to replace them but if this opportunity arose for the other European nations we could see money being pumped into places like Russia, Spain and Germany. Russia only lost 16-7 to Georgia today and there is more and more money being pumped into their now fully professional domestic league, which is seeing a flood of SA players plying their trade there now.

Don’t like the one team rest week format these days as it will add even more to the luck of the draw aspect we have

Italy are poor right now but they could come good if the Italian federation get their fingers out.

Promotion relegation isn’t the answer as it Italy and Georgia would just ping pong up and down and that would hold both teams back. Warburton stole my idea of a playoff but I think that will result in Georgia not winning most times.

My biggest issue with Italy is right now they have a big say in who wins the title simply by allowing that team to spank them by more points than the others. If Italy are causing such an impact then the title should be based on the head to head outcome of the top two teams.

It's worth saying that from a rugby perspective Italy offer very little to the Six Nations as stands. The fact is that there are only 5 competitive rugby teams in Europe. Georgia are not very good either. They have never beaten a Tier One side, they've never really got close.
The question really is whether returning to a 5 team format is a good idea. I can't see that we would gain anything from that.

Warburton said Italy should swap places with Georgia. But are Georgia any better than Italy? Surely it would be the same result as Italy, How would that be helping either side?

majesticimperialman wrote:Warburton said Italy should swap places with Georgia. But are Georgia any better than Italy? Surely it would be the same result as Italy, How would that be helping either side?

I think he suggested a playoff game to determine who plays each year.

Yes, get rid of Italy. Go back to the Five Nations. They've had 21 years to do something with the increased revenue and exposure they get from being in the Six Nations, and it appears they've done very little. They're arguably a worse team now than they were in 2000.

I just can't see a weekend in Tiblisi or Moscow approaching a weekend in Rome (i except that i am bias here!)

Both countries can also be covered in snow in February as well.

Unless anyone can come up with a better solution to what we have now, then leave things as they are. Scotland were no hopers a few years back as well, but have dragged themselves back to respectability.

Can't Italy do what everyone else does and fill their team with Saffers?

Works for Ireland and Scotland.

6N is also the optimum working size for the tournament. having fallow weeks may have worked ok back n the amateur days, but I don't think would be so good now, as each squad would disperse and be lost back to its respective club games, I don't believe players would get more rest out of that arrangement and teams that were doing well, could lose all momentum.

TightHEAD wrote:Can't Italy do what everyone else does and fill their team with Saffers?

Works for Ireland and Scotland.

Better off filling it with pacific islanders like England

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Can't Italy do what everyone else does and fill their team with Saffers?

Works for Ireland and Scotland.

Better off filling it with pacific islanders like England

Ireland do that too.

TightHEAD wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Can't Italy do what everyone else does and fill their team with Saffers?

Works for Ireland and Scotland.

Better off filling it with pacific islanders like England

Ireland do that too.

England also play saffers too...

majesticimperialman wrote:Warburton said Italy should swap places with Georgia. But are Georgia any better than Italy? Surely it would be the same result as Italy, How would that be helping either side?

Competition is good.

It's not like Italy don't utilise players on residency and ancestry. There is a massive Italian diaspora out there as well,. Just like the Scots, they travelled to the other sides of the world including several rugby loving countries.

BigGee wrote:I just can't see a weekend in Tiblisi or Moscow approaching a weekend in Rome (i except that i am bias here!)

Both countries can also be covered in snow in February as well.

Unless anyone can come up with a better solution to what we have now, then leave things as they are. Scotland were no hopers a few years back as well, but have dragged themselves back to respectability.

I'm pretty sure snow is not a limiting factor.

Btw the way, have you been to Tblisi? I haven't either - it's in the middle of nowhere and full of grim Soviet era buildings, but then again I've spent time in <<Insert your own Glasgow / Northampton / Coventry / Limerick / Newport joke here>> so I'm sure it will be fun.

There is a strong argument for Promotion / Relegation right up until the moment that Scotland / Wales / France (all finished bottom since 2000) are threatened with relegation.

Relegation would devastate Scottish or Welsh rugby - and by extension the pro14, and would send financial shockwaves through the competition. This, finance, is the reason we are persisting with Italy btw. If they can stick it out another 20 years and develop their own players to a greater degree they will start to bring the big bucks in, hopefully.

So, yeah - open the door to a play-off game but make sure the losses are underwritten by World Rugby / CVC / Amazon / whoever. Otherwise its a non-starter as it will just be vetoed immediately by Murrayfield and whoever else doesn't fancy a downside risk in the shortterm.

Mcsweens wrote:

BigGee wrote:I just can't see a weekend in Tiblisi or Moscow approaching a weekend in Rome (i except that i am bias here!)

Both countries can also be covered in snow in February as well.

Unless anyone can come up with a better solution to what we have now, then leave things as they are. Scotland were no hopers a few years back as well, but have dragged themselves back to respectability.

I'm pretty sure snow is not a limiting factor.

Btw the way, have you been to Tblisi? I haven't either - it's in the middle of nowhere and full of grim Soviet era buildings, but then again I've spent time in <<Insert your own Glasgow / Northampton / Coventry / Limerick / Newport joke here>> so I'm sure it will be fun.  

I will await your postcard

BigGee wrote:

Mcsweens wrote:

BigGee wrote:I just can't see a weekend in Tiblisi or Moscow approaching a weekend in Rome (i except that i am bias here!)

Both countries can also be covered in snow in February as well.

Unless anyone can come up with a better solution to what we have now, then leave things as they are. Scotland were no hopers a few years back as well, but have dragged themselves back to respectability.

I'm pretty sure snow is not a limiting factor.

Btw the way, have you been to Tblisi? I haven't either - it's in the middle of nowhere and full of grim Soviet era buildings, but then again I've spent time in <<Insert your own Glasgow / Northampton / Coventry / Limerick / Newport joke here>> so I'm sure it will be fun.  

I will await your postcard

This would be the same Tbilisi that National Geographic regards as the worlds most bohemian city, famous for its picturesque old town and highly regarded for its food culture that you’re both talking about here, right?

I haven’t been personally, but it’s high on my list of places to visit when I get the chance to travel again. Fun fact, a lot of the most popular Russian dishes are actually borrowed from Georgia. Very partial to a nice Khachapuri myself.

Or you know you could spend a weekend in Paris dodging American teenagers and paying through the nose to eat and drink anywhere!

Tbilisi looks an incredible City to visit but it is a ballache to get there. We looked at going for the World Cup warmup game but it was too much of a mission.

I agree that there's no point in just having Italy ping-pong with Georgia every year, nor would Georgia be more competitive than Italy and neither team would improve when they keep slipping down to a lower level.  I also agree that 5 Nations just isn't a feasible option any more.

The competition is pretty good to have 5 teams that can compete with each other and win against each other without it being a complete shock, and all of those bar Scotland could feasibly stand a chance to win the Championship most years. It really isn't ideal that we do have one team that just isn't competitive - even Scotland haven't lost to Italy since 2015 and I can't see us losing any time soon, particularly at home. Of course Scotland can't throw many stones in these glass houses as our 6N record was pretty dire up until 5 or so years ago.

I can't see what can really be done though, other than making it such that teams don't feel like they need to put out their first team and give them an absolute horsing - i.e. if teams treat the Italy game as a way to rest/rotate/blood new players.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Can't Italy do what everyone else does and fill their team with Saffers?

Works for Ireland and Scotland.

Better off filling it with pacific islanders like England

Ireland do that too.

England also play saffers too...

England also play English born players like Wales and Scotland.

TightHEAD wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Can't Italy do what everyone else does and fill their team with Saffers?

Works for Ireland and Scotland.

Better off filling it with pacific islanders like England

Ireland do that too.

England also play saffers too...

England also play English born players like Wales and Scotland.

We live on an island where about 75% of the population lives in England, where most job opportunities are in England. I was born to Scottish parents in England. If I was ever good enough to play international rugby, Scotland would be my first choice. Listen to any of the English born Scottish players and they'd say the same.

I can understand the project player gripe but it's the same rule for everyone so it's not just us who do it, and if they want to live in and play for Scotland and be Scottish so what. We live in a globalised world, the core of players are still born in Scotland, in fact all of the starting pack that caused England grief, bar Watson, were born in Scotland. Get a grip.

With regards to Italy agree with RDW that I don't see any point in relegating Italy, it'd be very much pot calling kettle black. Scotland struggled for a good 7 years or more in the 6Ns, and Wales have had dark periods, even Ireland have. Italy are starting from a lower base, but their pro teams are improving and they have talented individuals. They've beaten everyone but England (I think..) and even then have pushed England in the past. Give it a couple of seasons and I think they'll be competitive again. The only alternative in my opinion is expansion to the 7 nations, including Georgia. This would allow their development without the decline of Italy, which would be truly tragic.

Georgia need a path to promotion and development

Like with Italy i would make sure they play 3 games against the 6N teams in the AIs for a few years then go to a playoff between the bottom 6n team and the winner of the b competition

Completely tj. There needs to be a clear path and support for Georgia's development else we'll just get Italy with a different shirt.

Everyone wants to see Italy do well but I think they get unfairly criticised when you look at the bigger picture.

All the european teams try to close the gap to the southern hemisphere by throwing their money around. Every 6 nations team punches above their true ability due to how wealthy they are instead of how good their coaching and rugby cultures are.

If you look at the Scotland team that beat England at the weekend based on where they learned their rugby then you get a better picture. Scotland would be left with: Hogg and Russell in the backs. The forwards look much better with Sutherland, Turner, Fagerson x2, J Gray, and Ritchie. The bench is Steele, Cherry and Ritchie Gray. That's 11 out of 23. Less than half the team learned their rugby as children in Scotland and that is the best measurement of how good a country is at rugby: Maitland, Redpath, Harris, Duhan VDM, Cummings, Kebble, WP Nel, Graham, van der Walt, and Jones all had nothing to do with Scotland until they were professional rugby players. Watson and Ali Price moved when they were on the brink of turning professional.

Scotland are not the only ones who do this. At least they have a Scottish coach. The problem Italy have when it comes to competing with this is they are unlucky in two ways.

The first is that there hasn't been a significant diaspora of Italians to a rugby playing nation like England or Australia.

The second is that their professional teams and union does not have the money the home nations do to attract quality project players who improve their clubs and national team when they eventually qualify on residency.

Italy do have project players but they're not very good. They have some players with Italian heritage but Polledri and Parisse are the exception not the rule. Most are not very good.

I don't think the rest of europe is in a position to judge Italy too harshly given how much the rules benefit the wealthiest countries and penalise the weaker ones. Italy are in no man's land between the wealthy and tier 2 countries. They are much better than Georgia. Their under 20 team is very good and it's obvious that the problem lies in how the other 6 nations teams are outcompeting them by outspending them. Italy wouldn't see a drop off in competitiveness from youth level if half their national team was the best Italian players and half already established professionals who developed in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and England. If we are trying to tell Italy to 'catch up' then really all we are saying is "go out and find better foreigners like we did".

I don't think the 'stick' from either the carrot or stick is going to improve Italy. It will just make them focus on short termism and trying to negatively keep scorelines down. That won't help anyone.

The promotion/relegation arguement is similar to the one in the AP. Unless there is some form of parachute payment to stop significant financial loss, the likes of Italy and Georgia will struggle to invest long-term knowing that every 2nd year there'll likely lose a huge chunk of their income. Is ruining Italy's financial security worth improving Georgia's? Any solution won't work if it comes from weakening one of the existing participants. No one will vote for it for a start!

As has been mentioned previously, if a freak season happens and a different team goes down it could bankrupt the union.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely tj. There needs to be a clear path and support for Georgia's development else we'll just get Italy with a different shirt.

It was a clear path and support for Italian development that got us to where we are with Italy today.
There's nothing to suggest that support and a pathway won't leave us with Italy mk2

Edit - whether that is desirable or not is beside my point - a glass ceiling is clearly unfair. But I would be hesitant to foresee any difference in outcome if we were to admit Georgia now.

Mcsweens wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely tj. There needs to be a clear path and support for Georgia's development else we'll just get Italy with a different shirt.

It was a clear path and support for Italian development that got us to where we are with Italy today.
There's nothing to suggest that support and a pathway won't leave us with Italy mk2

I don't mean to be disparaging regarding them, some team is always going to finish bottom, not sure they'll ever have the depth of squad to trouble the top in my lifetime. What they need is the 3 or 4 players who can make a difference on the day. For me they are getting back to that point again. If Italy weren't in the 6 nations the conversation would be about the team who finished bottom of the 5 nations most years.

Happy to be rid of Italy but theres no European Union thats going to replace them and not make the situation worse. The idea that Georgia can sustain a proper professional game is a bit dubious at best, and the chances of getting the Unions to invest more in development when they are in financial meltdown already are pretty slim

Get SA in if they are done with the SANZAAR competitions. Or just be rid of Italy and free up some calendar space.

If it is done it should be part of a wider restructure of the global game. Worst case for me ifs losing the 5 nations which has history, real rivalries, tight competition, and the ability for fans to travel to all fixtures without being retired bankers.

I could not agree more with Warburton on this one. Italy have offered nothing of note since they joined the 6N 20 years ago other than the odd upset.

I think it's time to give someone else a go, lets have promotion and relegation from the 2nd tier 6N. The teams coming up could not be any worse.

LordDowlais wrote:
I think it's time to give someone else a go, lets have promotion and relegation from the 2nd tier 6N. The teams coming up could not be any worse.

Italy beat Georgia 28-17

RDW wrote:The promotion/relegation arguement is similar to the one in the AP. Unless there is some form of parachute payment to stop significant financial loss, the likes of Italy and Georgia will struggle to invest long-term knowing that every 2nd year there'll likely lose a huge chunk of their income.  Is ruining Italy's financial security worth improving Georgia's? Any solution won't work if it comes from weakening one of the existing participants. No one will vote for it for a start!

As has been mentioned previously, if a freak season happens and a different team goes down it could bankrupt the union.

Agree with this- there is too much history/ 'vested interest' from the current participants to risk losing their (our) place in the off chance someone other than Italy finishes bottom...
With the new Autumn Nations Cup having started last year, I think that tournament is the ideal opportunity to give greater exposure to other 'second tier' nations, and hopefully expand the game more in the process.

I don't know what the solution to improving Italy's contribution to the six nations is, but I don't think promotion/ relegation, or going back to 5 nations are the answer.

Gooseberry wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
I think it's time to give someone else a go, lets have promotion and relegation from the 2nd tier 6N. The teams coming up could not be any worse.

Italy beat Georgia 28-17

Pretty close considering Italy were the home team. I wonder what Georgia would achieve in 20 years ?

LordDowlais wrote:I could not agree more with Warburton on this one. Italy have offered nothing of note since they joined the 6N 20 years ago other than the odd upset.

I think it's time to give someone else a go, lets have promotion and relegation from the 2nd tier 6N. The teams coming up could not be any worse.

This is professional sport with huge commercial deals and massive pressure on international Unions to keep the game afloat. You can't just "give someone else a go" - there has to be a rugby and business case to do so. Currently just swapping Italy for Georgia doesn't satisfy either.

RDW wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I could not agree more with Warburton on this one. Italy have offered nothing of note since they joined the 6N 20 years ago other than the odd upset.

I think it's time to give someone else a go, lets have promotion and relegation from the 2nd tier 6N. The teams coming up could not be any worse.

This is professional sport with huge commercial deals and massive pressure on international Unions to keep the game afloat. You can't just "give someone else a go" - there has to be a rugby and a business case to do so. Currently just swapping Italy for Georgia doesn't satisfy either.

Did I mention Georgia ?

LordDowlais wrote:

RDW wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I could not agree more with Warburton on this one. Italy have offered nothing of note since they joined the 6N 20 years ago other than the odd upset.

I think it's time to give someone else a go, lets have promotion and relegation from the 2nd tier 6N. The teams coming up could not be any worse.

This is professional sport with huge commercial deals and massive pressure on international Unions to keep the game afloat. You can't just "give someone else a go" - there has to be a rugby and a business case to do so. Currently just swapping Italy for Georgia doesn't satisfy either.

Did I mention Georgia ?

You said promotion from the 2nd tier 6 nations, which Georgia won, so yes in a way you did.

Well you did in the post after, but what difference does it make? Plus Georgia tend be the winners of tier 2. It makes even less sense to go for the next in line like Romania or Spain.

Replace Italy with South Africa.

There you go, problem sorted

Pete330v2 wrote:Replace Italy with South Africa.

There you go, problem sorted

That would certainly make rugby and commercial sense, albeit shafting Italy in the process.

Did Saanzar not sign a new 10 year agreement before Christmas though?

Pete330v2 wrote:Replace Italy with South Africa.

There you go, problem sorted

Yep. I agree with this.

Hard to see SA wanting to cut themselves off from annual competitive games v the All Blacks as well. They want to be judged along those lines.

I just don't see SA fitting into the 6N, with all its European traditions and the popularity of travelling to away games by the fans.

I was maybe a bit facetious about the merits of Tiblisi on an earlier post, but I just don't see the mass influx of fans there for a 6N weekend. The weather is awful in February (even by NH standards) and it is a long way to go, with very poor transport links.

SA is even further and in February you would be playing in summertime and likely at altitude, which would add its own skew to the events. It is a nice idea, bur don't see it happening.

For me, the 6N with its traditions and popularity with the fans, needs to stay a European event. I am not against relegation and promotion in principle but I am not seeing a constructive method of making it happen at the moment.

Well it's about time the Italians started to sort themselves out. The rest of the 6N have given them a leg up, well Wales, Ireland and Scotland have, and yet still, here we are and all they offer is a banana skin.

LordDowlais wrote: The teams coming up could not be any worse.

Georgia are the best of the rest but nowhere near italy even right now. give them a few years with meaningful games then maybe. Italy proved their worth by beating 5N teams in the AIs before they were admitted. give Georgia the same chance. 3 games in the AIs against 6N teams between now and the next WC

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: The teams coming up could not be any worse.

Georgia are the best of the rest but nowhere near italy even right now.  give them a few years with meaningful games then maybe.  Italy proved their worth by beating 5N teams in the AIs before they were admitted.  give Georgia the same chance.  3 games in the AIs against 6N teams between now and the next WC

When I say, cannot be any worse, what I mean is, they would be just as rubbish. The way Wales are playing at the moment Italy could beat us at their place, but what will that achieve them ? You could also say the same for Georgia, they could beat Wales at the moment.

If SA do come up North then imho that should also be the end of Lions touring in SA.

I have no idea what relegating Italy would achieve.

I was pleasantly surprised by much of their performance vs France, but the international game can be dependent on fine margins, and it is there where Italy constantly came up short, and where France were utterly ruthless.

So the two solutions is
1. We go back to the 5 nations and end Italy as a professional union and destroy their work at Pro14 and u20s levels. If they don't have professional teams they can't bring in better players.
2. We have a promotion playoff which means they only focus on the Georgia game each year. If Georgia did replace them how are they set up better then Italy.

It is true that relative to the other 6 nations they are just as bad but we forget how much Wales, Ireland and Scotland have improved. Look at Agrentina, plenty big wins by the European nations v them.

Do we want to only have 8 international teams simillar to cricket or do we want to grow the game.

While we are still waiting for the men's team to improve they are as good as the Celtic Nations at u20. Their Pro14 teams are filled much more with Italians and they are much better in the league and Europe.

Which union will give up the extra home game. Which team is willing to sit out the final weekend. I don't see why we want to focus on Fiji and Japan etc yet get rid of Italy. They are a European team so forget WR to pick up any tab for funding Italy.

No funding and all their players go overseas. They were missing their best back and best forward.

It took France 40 years to come good in the 1950s and 1960s.
We are only half way through this project.

Inevitable outcome of this is that Italy will beat Wales.