Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July

by **George Carlin** Sun 04 Jul 2021, 5:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July - Page 6 Sharks10

Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July - Page 6 Lions_10

CELL C SHARKS v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Wednesday 7 July
KO: 19:00 SAST / 18:00 UK / 21:00 Dubai Very Happy

Emirates Airline Park (Ellis Park), Johannesburg
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Assistant Referee 2: AJ Jacobs (SARU)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SARU)

TEAMS:

CELL C SHARKS:
1. Khwezi Mona
2. Fez Mbatha
3. Khutha Mchunu
4. Ruben van Heerden
5. Hyron Andrews
6. James Venter
7. Thembelani Bholi
8. Phepsi Buthelezi (c)

9. Jaden Hendrikse
10. Curwin Bosch
11. Thaakir Abrahams
12. Marius Louw
13. Jeremy Ward
14. Werner Kok
15. Manie Libbok

16. Kerron van Vuuren
17. Ntuthuko Mchunu
18. Wiehahn Herbst
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson
22. Grant Williams
23. Anthony Volmink

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets, Wales) #850

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #848
4. Iain Henderson – Captain (Ulster Rugby, Ireland) #808
5. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales)
6. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby, Wales)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England)
8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
23. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844

COMMENTARY:

by bsando Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:13 am

Of the two scottish props I think Sutherland is pushing to start while Fagerson is not quite living up to his best form. He’s very solid as a backup tight head option though but the dynamism of Sinkler may get him in ahead of Fagerson in the match day 23.

Hooker is such a great position for the lions, all of them are playing well. Great to see George back in form.

Second row is clearly going to be Itoje and Henderson in my opinion at least.

Backrow is tough to call but Watson seems
The standout so far then probably Beirne at blindside. Simmonds could well be the guy to have at number 8, he’s so quick and could really inject some extra pace into the lions attack at the expense of some power.

by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:22 am

Should Daly play 13 for England from now? Strangely enough, I never thought of him there. Having that pace attacking the 13 channel seems to be a rarity for most teams, plus he used to play fly-half so has a good boot.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:26 am

No, can't defend.

by lostinwales Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:30 am

I think Daly can defend its just not a strength.

For all the concerns about Slade not being quite up to the mark his defense is rated highly, although I think our next 13 probably should be Marchant, who is also seriously quick.

by Old Man Thu 08 Jul 2021, 11:41 am

News from SA.

Due to the Bulls vs Lions match cancelled, the British and Irish Lions management have been hard at work to find a replacement opponent for Saturday.

Originally the Pumas were considered to play, but because they have a Currie Cup fixture with the Cheetahs on friday their coach Jimmy Stonehouse declined. Whilst it would have been an ho our for them to play the Lions their schedule cannot allow it.

It is rumoured the British and Irish Lions might face the Sharks for a second time this week. Still to be confirmed though.

by **RDW** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 12:15 pm

Just watched the game - a decent first half but the intensity absolutely nosedived half way through the second. No surprise really given the lead the Lions had, the lack of crowd and the mass subs.

Standouts for me:

Forwards - the Exeter boys had a strong game with LCD in particular putting in an all action display. The starting props didn't do so well with the replacements improving things - I'd have Sutherland join Furlong for the Tests. Navidi was workmanlike but looked short of match fitness. Curry did some good work but not as stand out as Watson has been, who brought so much energy and enthusiasm off the bench. A good first game for him though and he'll be in the mix for the Tests.

Backs - standout for me was Ali Price who put in another top performance. Impeccable box kicking and plenty zip at the rucks. Someone here criticized him for dropping the pass after the Sutherland break but really it was a poor pass from Sutherland. Plus huge credit that he was in support in the first place as he will have been knackered! Farrell had a strong first half with a bit of an armchair ride to help him along. Daley had a good game and his defence looked pretty good to me. LRZ had a poor first half but improved a lot in the 2nd. Adams and VDM exactly as expected. Russell off the bench was again hit and miss but his goal kicking was impeccable.

So a similar game to last weekend - comfrotable win without really being tested to any intensity.

by lostinwales Thu 08 Jul 2021, 12:34 pm

Some of the text commentary that I have seen was really talking up Simmonds in the first half, but to be honest he has the kind of game which should cause real problems for a team like the sharks.

Sounds like Curry did his standard last ditch turnover thing again. He's very adept and getting involved when it really matters, but unsurprisingly lacked the energy that Watson is bringing.

by **RDW** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 12:53 pm

Sounds like Sharks round 2 is a go for Saturday, pending no more cases in the Lions camp.

Sharks will only have 2 days break between games and will be up against a fully freshened Lions team. Could be messy.

Is it really worth it? I'm guessing TV revenue is playing a huge part in this.

by Old Man Thu 08 Jul 2021, 1:18 pm

I would have loved to see the Pumas with their £500 000 salary cap play the Lions

by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 1:51 pm

Do Sharks have any more players they can draft in? Seems like a lot for them to do.

by **BigGee** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:00 pm

You just wonder how that would work, as they would surely have to be in a bubble before the match?

It's all very complicated

by Guest Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:05 pm

Old Man wrote:I would have loved to see the Pumas with their £500 000 salary cap play the Lions

Do you mean Pumas as in Argentina? They’re playing Wales on Saturday.

by BamBam Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:12 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:I would have loved to see the Pumas with their £500 000 salary cap play the Lions

Do you mean Pumas as in Argentina? They’re playing Wales on Saturday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumas_(Currie_Cup)

by BamBam Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:13 pm

Looks like its the Sharks again anyway. Difficult to learn much if a refreshed Lions side batters a tired Sharks team

by **BigGee** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:16 pm

You can't imagine that will be a lot of fun for the Sharks!

by Old Man Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:36 pm

Sharks will probably bring in a number of inexperienced players

by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 2:52 pm

The actual tests are going to be bizarre. 2 undercooked teams.

by **George Carlin** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 3:21 pm

Genuinely good of the franchise to host again.

The alternative was presumably Ben Calveley inviting himself to neighbourhood braais in Joburg, sidling up to the biggest blokes and whispering, 'are you free for a game on Saturday'?

by Old Man Thu 08 Jul 2021, 3:48 pm

If I was Jimmy Stonehouse I would do everything possible to postpone the Cheetah match and play the Lions.

Pumas are like the cinderella team in my view, have a small budget, yet every year they surprise a few teams in the Currie Cup. They play a beautiful brand of rugby.

by Collapse2005 Thu 08 Jul 2021, 4:13 pm

Maybe the Lions should give Zimbabwe a dig out and play them instead. I assume they would be around the same level as the Sharks. Its obviously a bit late in the day now to do it however since we are in the region perhaps teams like Zimbabwe should get a look in.

by Guest Thu 08 Jul 2021, 4:18 pm

BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:I would have loved to see the Pumas with their £500 000 salary cap play the Lions

Do you mean Pumas as in Argentina? They’re playing Wales on Saturday.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumas_(Currie_Cup)

Ah right, apologies. Wasn’t thinking of a club side!

by lostinwales Thu 08 Jul 2021, 4:45 pm

Whoever they play would need to be in a bubble starting now.

by Old Man Thu 08 Jul 2021, 5:06 pm

Sharks are already in the bubble

by lostinwales Thu 08 Jul 2021, 5:22 pm

Old Man wrote:Sharks are already in the bubble

Yes which makes playing them again attractive and makes finding a realistic alternative hard

by doctor_grey Thu 08 Jul 2021, 5:33 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Old Man wrote:Sharks are already in the bubble

Yes which makes playing them again attractive and makes finding a realistic alternative hard

And will make it very interesting if the Sharks get the same chances and don't fumble them away in the early going that they did against the Lions yesterday.

Let's hope they an pull this off. Besides may give everyone the chance to finally see Sam Simmonds play 12 or 13....

by **George Carlin** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 8:00 pm

I would love to see Simmonds in the centre.

I also suspect that's the last time I ever see a 6-1 bench split.

by **George Carlin** Thu 08 Jul 2021, 8:02 pm

15,000 posts on this forum and I don't think I've ever written this before, but I can't do a new Lions match thread for the weekend because I don't know who they'll be playing or who from the Lions won't be self isolating in a hotel room playing endless PS5.

This will be remembered as the weirdest tour ever.

by Old Man Thu 08 Jul 2021, 8:54 pm

The more this weirdness becomes evident, the more I worry about a Bok team going stone cold 8nto the first test.

by Guest Thu 08 Jul 2021, 9:43 pm

Old Man wrote:The more this weirdness becomes evident, the more I worry about a Bok team going stone cold 8nto the first test.

You know that, according to Sod’s Law, if they do go in cold SA will probably end up romping to victory!

by mikey_dragon Thu 08 Jul 2021, 10:57 pm

Hopefully Lions get to face South Africa A, that might actually be a good test before the big Boks. Who would make the A team?

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 12:39 am

Lions have confirmed that not all members of the touring party agreed to be vaccinated.

LIONS Managing Director Ben Calveley has defended the decision to include unvaccinated people in their bio-secure bubble in South Africa.

On Wednesday, the executive in charge of the tour revealed that a small minority of the party have not been vaccinated against Covid-19.

Pressed on that revelation at a press conference today, he declined to say how many members of the touring party have not been fully vaccinated, whether anyone had travelled with just one dose or to elaborate on the reasons why people had taken the decision to decline the pre-departure offer of vaccination.

The tourists are staying in the Gauteng region which has been described as the epicentre of the third wave of the pandemic and suffered a scare on Wednesday when they reported two cases of Covid-19. One of those appears now to be a false positive.

"Well, I think everyone has a right to make their own decision on whether or not they want to be vaccinated. We have a number of strategies in place to mitigate the risk in any environment,” Calveley said.

"I think it's wrong for anyone to think that vaccination is some sort of universal panacea. I'm afraid it's not. So we have an approach which is multi-layered where, as well as having a majority of the party being vaccinated, we are also exhibiting all of the right behaviours that I've spoken about before.

"We're getting tested three times a week if not more, we're socially distancing, we're well ventilated, we're observing hand hygiene, we're wearing masks, we're not integrating with the public, and we're travelling very infrequently.

"So we think we've got a very, very robust set of protocols in place that will keep us as safe as they possibly can.

"I don't think we're going to get into a conversation about who isn't vaccinated. I will just make the point again that the very high majority of the party are double-jabbed.

“We haven’t ever specified who has and hasn’t received double jabs and I don’t think we’d really want to get into a conversation about that. All we said was the vast majority of the tour party have been double jabbed.”

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/lions-tour/it-would-be-wrong-to-think-that-vaccination-is-some-sort-of-universal-panacea-lions-chief-defends-tour-decision-40630677.html

by Old Man Fri 09 Jul 2021, 5:53 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Hopefully Lions get to face South Africa A, that might actually be a good test before the big Boks. Who would make the A team?

I have no idea from where the SA a team will be pooled.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 09 Jul 2021, 6:09 am

Why do I immediately think LCD when someone mentions un vaccinated.

by **RDW** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 6:18 am

Without turning this into a debate about vaccines, I just don't get it when it comes to professional sports people. There's a very low chance of dying for fit young healthy people, but long covid is a very real risk and if you get that then you could lose a whole season, never mind the potential longterm impacts which are still relatively unknown. I have friends in London who know amateur athletes (running) who got long covid and basically can't run anymore. Of course these players may have genuine medical reasons not to get it (we will never know) but if they don't that's incredibly reckless.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 7:41 am

Leaving aside those individuals who elected not to get vaccinated, I wish the Lions had been honest about the situation from the start. All the publicity trumpeted how the tour group was going to be fully vaccinated, when we now discover that some individuals declined, while others have only had one jab.

There was every opportunity to be clear, not least when Henry Slade indicated he was unwilling to be vaccinated. It's a shame, as it adds another layer of uncertainty and second-guessing to an already compromised tour.

I see a number of the regular podcast pundits are spending as much time talking about whether the tour will make it to the end, as the form of the Lions players. BOD is concerned the commercial imperative to keep going has become so dominant, it threatens to undermine the Lions brand in the future. While money has always been part of the raison d'être for the modern Lions, it has also very much been for the touring supporters and players. With supporters out of the picture, and players caged up, BOD wonders whether the Lions will just now be seen as a money grab.

A similar conversation is taking place in Japan over the Olympics. We have another state of emergency in Tokyo, so the Games will take place without spectators. Meanwhile, IOC officials, and sponsors delegate will be in the stadiums. There's a growing feeling among Tokyo residents that the Olympics is happy to sacrifice all ideals about community and participation, so long as the revenue keeps coming in.

by Collapse2005 Fri 09 Jul 2021, 7:46 am

The shouldnt have selected anyone who declined to be vaccinated

by **BigGee** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:45 am

Collapse2005 wrote:The shouldnt have selected anyone who declined to be vaccinated

I tend to agree with you, but I don't think that stance would have stood up to a legal challenge unfortunately and it may well have come to that!

by Guest Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:50 am

Did the Lions arrange vaccines for the players, or were they relying on them getting a vaccine through the normal local NHS routes? Just thinking some may be too young to have been called yet. Certainly for jab no.2 I don’t think they’ve got round to the younger adults yet.

by **RDW** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:51 am

All of the squad were offered vaccines as part of the 'admin day' where they all gathered early last month.

by jimbopip Fri 09 Jul 2021, 8:57 am

Not necessarily Gee. When the committee were sending out the letters enquiring about availability they could have included a section about vaccinations and asked if the player had been vaccinated, required vaccinations, wanted to take up their offer of being vaccinated. If this was before the final squad was announced then any legal action would have to prove that someone was omitted purely on grounds of non compliance which would be difficult. N.B. George Carlin may shed some more light on this but he'll bill us for his expertise.
P.S. I certainly wouldn't want to be rooming in a covid hot spot with someone who has refused to be vaccinated.

by mikey_dragon Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:09 am

Collapse2005 wrote:The shouldnt have selected anyone who declined to be vaccinated

Ridiculous.

It's as if taking this vaccine stops you from getting the virus... oh wait! Doh

by mikey_dragon Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:11 am

Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Hopefully Lions get to face South Africa A, that might actually be a good test before the big Boks. Who would make the A team?

I have no idea from where the SA a team will be pooled.

Surely a few from the current Springbok squad should drop down? It would make for a decent team, but not sure how that would work with all the self-isolation bubbles, etc.

If SA could pick a team based on the rest of their overseas players, it would be pretty good...

by **George Carlin** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:11 am

Collapse2005 wrote:The shouldnt have selected anyone who declined to be vaccinated

Discuss.

Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July - Page 6 1347041234

by **BigGee** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:14 am

jimbopip wrote:Not necessarily Gee. When the committee were sending out the letters enquiring about availability they could have included a section about vaccinations and asked if the player had been vaccinated, required vaccinations, wanted to take up their offer of being vaccinated. If this was before the final squad was announced then any legal action would have to prove that someone was omitted purely on grounds of non compliance which would be difficult. N.B. George Carlin may shed some more light on this but he'll bill us for his expertise.
P.S. I certainly wouldn't want to be rooming in a covid hot spot with someone who has refused to be vaccinated.

It could all have gotten very messy very quickly.

As we are not yet at the point where we are insisting on vaccines for health care workers, it is pretty difficult to see how we can force rugby players!

I agree though, I would not want to be sharing a room with the unvaccinated ones!

by Old Man Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:21 am

They shouldn’t be sharing rooms at this stage anyway

by **RDW** Fri 09 Jul 2021, 9:31 am

Old Man wrote:They shouldn’t be sharing rooms at this stage anyway

Yeah they all stay in individual rooms

by Pot Hale Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:01 am

So who is likely to be in for the weekend's game? Looking at appearances so far, 6 players have played in all 3 games, and 13 players have only appeared in 1 game with 2 of those only as replacements. If you assume the 6 who've featured in all 3 to date won't be picked, could you assume the 13 who've only had one game will be selected again? And who is likely to feature from the remainder?

All 3 to date
Adams S S S
Aki S R S
Faletau R S R
Farrell R S S
Henderson S R S
Price R S S

Only 1 to date
Beard - - S
Beirne S - -
Biggar S - -
Curry - - S
Davies - R -
Harris S -
Henshaw S - -
Hill - S -
Hogg - S -
Murray S - -
Navidi - - S
A Watson R - -
Williams S - -

2 Games to date
Conan S - R
Dickie - S R
Daly - R S
Fagerson - R S
Furlong S - R
George R S -
Itoje - S R
Jones R S -
Lawes R S -
Owens S - R
Russell - S R
Simmonds - R S
Sinckler R S -
Sutherland S - R
Van der Merwe S - S
Vunipola - R S
H Watson - S R
Zammit - S S

by No 7&1/2 Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:03 am

There're still 2 players in isolation as well. Not sure who they are, Watson and A N Other?

by Pot Hale Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:There're still 2 players in isolation as well. Not sure who they are, Watson and A N Other?

Don't know. Hogg and Harris are another rumour.

Anthony Watson and Gareth Davies are the only two who have not started a match.

by R!skysports Fri 09 Jul 2021, 10:23 am

BigGee wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Not necessarily Gee. When the committee were sending out the letters enquiring about availability they could have included a section about vaccinations and asked if the player had been vaccinated, required vaccinations, wanted to take up their offer of being vaccinated. If this was before the final squad was announced then any legal action would have to prove that someone was omitted purely on grounds of non compliance which would be difficult. N.B. George Carlin may shed some more light on this but he'll bill us for his expertise.
P.S. I certainly wouldn't want to be rooming in a covid hot spot with someone who has refused to be vaccinated.

It could all have gotten very messy very quickly.

As we are not yet at the point where we are insisting on vaccines for health care workers, it is pretty difficult to see how we can force rugby players!

I agree though, I would not want to be sharing a room with the unvaccinated ones!

Although you could argue that the health workers are not travelling into an Amber / Red country which has a rampaging crisis on its hands, which in my mind should have given enough reason for them to insist on people having the vaccination. People that for medical reasons can not, would have been disappointed, but it is a medical reason like any other.

Those that choose not to for non medical reason, should certainly not be allowed to tour in my opinion, as I feel it is totally selfish and life threatening to do so

(My opinion :-) )

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