England's Summer of Cricket 2021

First topic message reminder :

Jacks, Crawley, Hain, Stokes, Salt (WK), Lawrence, Gregory, Overton, Saqib, Ball, Parkinson?

Will MacPherson suggests Hales won’t be picked, which is a bit odd given they hinted he would get a chance this summer.

You also have Vince, Duckett and keep an eye out for Harry Brook.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:When was the last time England produced a test match quality batsman (who went on to become that)? Must be over 5 years now I reckon

Maybe a first class competition where Darren Stevens is celebrated for being so potent isn't quite the quality needed eh

Fewer fully professional counties and fewer first-class games but played at a much higher standard in the period of the summer conducive to balanced cricket. The answer has been clear for a while.

I do have sympathy with the ECB (I often don't) in this regard in that the County game desperately needs change to survive long term but any attempt to change the game is met with derision.

The status quo is too much international cricket, with much of it at too low a quality, being played just to make cash so the ECB can prop up the Counties with play too much cricket, with much of it at too low a quality, whilst is bleeding cash. Something has to give.

I often see the “what do we expect when the first class games are moved into the fringes of the summer county schedule” tweets and comments…as if the counties are being forced for that to be the case. You find me a county chairman who would rather their cash cow t20 blast games be played at the start of April, and I’ll be surprised!

But you’re right Carlos - something does have to give soon. Unfortunately I fear it is going to be more players (ala Stokes) rather than the administrators…

Think most of us on here are in agreement that 18 professional counties just isn’t really the way forward for cricket in this country.

I know Bumble isn't everyone's flavour as a commentator but between playing, coaching, umpiring and broadcasting the guy has a vast knowledge of the game. Whenever the lucrative one dayers vs first-class debate is brought up as a modern phenomenon Lloyd will mention that when he played for Lancashire as far back as the '60s the chairman would come in at the start of the season and say to the players, "remember that Sunday pays the bills, save your best for Sundays". Sunday being the one day games. So it's in no way a modern phenomenon.

Having that 'white ball block' in the most lucrative chunk of the summer is frequently laid at the ECBs feet but it's happened through financial necessity and I've no knowledge of the counties fighting it as Olly alludes to.

I do get why many feel that losing professional counties feels fundamentally wrong I will add. My grandfather for instance was a member at Essex CCC for around 40 years. He has a commemorative plaque on a bench there where he used to sit with other members. I can go to Chelmsford with my grandmother and sit on that bench where he sat all those years despite him being gone 20 years next month. The history and personal emotion that goes with things like that are enormous, hence I understand why those with long standing connections to counties that may lose pro status feel so strongly adverse to this. I fear though that if significant changes don't happen then financial realities will force these counties to disappear completely anyway.

Not exactly shocked to wake up to that scoreline ; though a little disappointed England couldn't nab a wicket in that brief spell. Looked like a bit of a seam bowlers day from all I saw both live and on highlights.
When Root and Bairstow were batting relatively calmly in the middle session I dared to hope they might steer England towards a goodish score. But losing Jonny on the stroke of tea was the beginning of the end...Kohli nearly didn't take the review either !
As I say , batting wasn't easy ; but the procession after tea was a bit dismal. Perhaps not unexpected given none of them have faced a red ball outside a net for ages ... I know India have also had a less than ideal preparation : but they are markedly the better team so England simply cannot afford to pass up any possible advantage- and The Hundred and the priority afforded white ball cricket has done for that.

I won't completely panic yet . But it is entirely possible India will whitewash England in this series. And an Ashes tour without Stokes could be a total nightmare ...maybe not for PJ

king_carlos wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:When was the last time England produced a test match quality batsman (who went on to become that)? Must be over 5 years now I reckon

Maybe a first class competition where Darren Stevens is celebrated for being so potent isn't quite the quality needed eh

Fewer fully professional counties and fewer first-class games but played at a much higher standard in the period of the summer conducive to balanced cricket. The answer has been clear for a while.

I do have sympathy with the ECB (I often don't) in this regard in that the County game desperately needs change to survive long term but any attempt to change the game is met with derision.

The status quo is too much international cricket, with much of it at too low a quality, being played just to make cash so the ECB can prop up the Counties with play too much cricket, with much of it at too low a quality, whilst is bleeding cash. Something has to give.

You know that, I know that, we all know that but the ECB continue to make a complete mess of everything. Why on earth they thought it would be a good idea to host a five match series against India in the middle of the hundred is anyone's guess, that is then exasperated by selecting players who were involved. It seems quite simple to me that you can't go from a slogathon to a test match with no recent first class cricket, it's madness.

Perhaps England would have done better if Moeen had been playing rather than smashing it around in The Hundred.

The fact that so many England players are making ducks at the moment strengthens the belief that none of us could do worse.

Certainly a guy like Moeen, with five Test hundreds, ought to come into consideration.

I am not so sure that the Hundred, Big bash, IPL etc. can be blamed for England's batting performances. India, NZ, Australia, SA etc. all have a large portion of their squads who also play in these white ball tournaments and they do not seem to suffer to the extent of England.

Not sure where the issue lies but i do not think it is down to white ball cricket.

We all need to calm down:

1) India aren't whitewashing England. India are very unlikely to even win this series, one day doesn't change that their batting is as fragile as England's.

2) Moeen is not the answer. It's utterly bizarre how his name keeps getting touted for recall, not just on here. Aside from being past his best and offering no long-term option (he's 34), Moeen is strictly a limited-overs player now as he doesn't play the FC stuff for his county. As I've said before you may as well discuss the merits of recalling Flintoff or Swann.

eirebilly wrote:I am not so sure that the Hundred, Big bash, IPL etc. can be blamed for England's batting performances. India, NZ, Australia, SA etc. all have a large portion of their squads who also play in these white ball tournaments and they do not seem to suffer to the extent of England.

Not sure where the issue lies but i do not think it is down to white ball cricket.

The issue is partially lack of preparation. Most England players in this side haven't played FC cricket since the last NZ test, instead they've been warming up with limited-overs games mainly in the T20 and a couple in the Hundred. That lack of preparation has been exposed by a good Indian bowling attack.

The other issue, a bigger one, is that most of the top seven aren't test-standard batsmen. Burns, Bairstow, Buttler and Lawrence certainly aren't, Lawrence may improve to that standard but it's unlikely. You can possibly add Sibley to that list; in three of his past five innings he has seen off the new ball, which is his role, but he's struggled to score/rotate the strike at the same time. Crawley has great potential but isn't the finished article yet (and may never be). Root is quality but still not at his best, alas.

alfie wrote:Not exactly shocked to wake up to that scoreline ; though a little disappointed England couldn't nab a wicket in that brief spell. Looked like a bit of a seam bowlers day from all I saw both live and on highlights.
When Root and Bairstow were batting relatively calmly in the middle session I dared to hope they might steer England towards a goodish score.  But losing Jonny on the stroke of tea was the beginning of the end...Kohli nearly didn't take the review either !
As I say , batting wasn't easy ; but the procession after tea was a bit dismal. Perhaps not unexpected given none of them have faced a red ball outside a net for ages ... I know India have also had a less than ideal preparation :  but they are markedly the better team so England simply cannot afford to pass up any possible advantage- and The Hundred and the priority afforded white ball cricket has done for that.

I won't completely panic yet . But it is entirely possible India will whitewash England in this series. And an Ashes tour without Stokes could be a total nightmare ...maybe not for PJ

One can never take anything for for granted, alfie! The only good news I've heard recently is that they are concentrating on getting some red ball cricket under their belts before the Ashes tour starts... if it starts. Doesn't look so good right now.

I made it up to Jonny's wicket too (which was disappointing given I needed him to score some runs for the tipping comp) and then went to bed thinking they'd at least get up over the 200-run mark... maybe 250 if they batted sensibly. So I was a little shocked but not totally unsurprised to see the score in the morning. Have a feeling that if this opening partnership can get through the first session unscathed then India's confidence will gradually build and they'll be hard to reel back even if the match is interrupted due to the weather. How's that for a jinx?

Duty281 wrote:We all need to calm down:

1) India aren't whitewashing England.

Look How the tune "The English Fan" has changed from;
We can Whitewash them....to......We won't get Whitewashed, in just one days of cricket of a 5 tests series

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I am not so sure that the Hundred, Big bash, IPL etc. can be blamed for England's batting performances. India, NZ, Australia, SA etc. all have a large portion of their squads who also play in these white ball tournaments and they do not seem to suffer to the extent of England.

Not sure where the issue lies but i do not think it is down to white ball cricket.

The issue is partially lack of preparation. Most England players in this side haven't played FC cricket since the last NZ test, instead they've been warming up with limited-overs games mainly in the T20 and a couple in the Hundred. That lack of preparation has been exposed by a good Indian bowling attack.

The other issue, a bigger one, is that most of the top seven aren't test-standard batsmen. Burns, Bairstow, Buttler and Lawrence certainly aren't, Lawrence may improve to that standard but it's unlikely. You can possibly add Sibley to that list; in three of his past five innings he has seen off the new ball, which is his role, but he's struggled to score/rotate the strike at the same time. Crawley has great potential but isn't the finished article yet (and may never be). Root is quality but still not at his best, alas.

The preparation is something that I fully agree with, thanks for reminding me of that. There does not seem to be any balance in the scheduling to allow players to change and adapt to test cricket. White ball cricket does not require the same preparation as red ball cricket and it is only the exceptional players that can adapt seamlessly (Root).

Sibley, he just seems negative for negative sake. He does not even look to pick off the odd bad ball, his mindset seems permanently fixed on survival which is not exactly what i would expect from an opener. Yes he see's off the new ball regularly but rarely have i seen him attempt to dominate.

I believe Burn's, Crawly and Lawrence (with Pope included) as definite test players given the right exposure. They must be stuck with.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:We all need to calm down:

1) India aren't whitewashing England.

Look How the tune "The English Fan" has changed from;
We can Whitewash them....to......We won't get Whitewashed, in just one days of cricket of a 5 tests series

My position hasn't changed, I still think England will win the series comfortably.

Saw the highlights package and I think Lawrence was unlucky......He's still the best of the inexperienced English batsmen.....Bumrah was brilliant like he is when he gets his radar right, which he couldn't in the WTC final...& Shardul handy with his never say die attitude of pace changes in the 128-140kph range.....and wanting to keep trying variations until he gets a wicket and when he gets one, he normally gets two

The openers should try to be more positive today....means if its short...slash hard...and if its too short.....don't hold back the pull/ hook
Even Pujara will have to look to score while out there, else his neck is on the blocks

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:When was the last time England produced a test match quality batsman (who went on to become that)? Must be over 5 years now I reckon

Maybe a first class competition where Darren Stevens is celebrated for being so potent isn't quite the quality needed eh

Only four English batsmen who have made their debuts from the 1st January 2010 have averaged over 35 (Ballance, Hameed, Root, Stokes). Otherwise it's a tale of woe.

The other batsmen otherwise tried have been Carberry, Morgan, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Moeen, Robson, Buttler, Lyth, Hales, Vince, Duckett, Jennings, Malan, Westley, Stoneman, Pope, Burns, Foakes, Denly, Roy, Sibley, Crawley, Lawrence, and Bracey. That's obviously not including some all-rounders like Samit or Woakes.

All-in-all that's 29 batsmen who have made their test debuts in the past 11 and a half years and only four of that 29 have made decent test averages. And even that four comes with caveats in that Hameed has played very few tests, and Stokes and Ballance are only just scraping over the 35 average line.

eirebilly wrote:I am not so sure that the Hundred, Big bash, IPL etc. can be blamed for England's batting performances. India, NZ, Australia, SA etc. all have a large portion of their squads who also play in these white ball tournaments and they do not seem to suffer to the extent of England.

Not sure where the issue lies but i do not think it is down to white ball cricket.

South Africa are in a worse position than England batting wise, they're awful at the moment and what with Covid it's easy to forget they were dominated at home last year. Australia can be superb at home but aside from Smith their batting isn't great overseas while New Zealand very rarely play abroad so again difficult to say. None of them however play the volume of cricket that England do.

Duty281
My that is a long list ! Perhaps if they all played England might get a reasonable total.

May be we've been spoiled by the early 21st century period. For once, nearly every new batsman tried went on to do well.

The list includes Vaughan, Trescothick, Bell (after a difficult start), Strauss, Cook, Pietersen, Prior and Trott.

Later, you had Root and Stokes. But as Duty 281's list above shows, almost every available opener has been tried since Strauss packed it in and no one has come close to nailing down a permanent place.

Collingwood too, his 40+ average looks better with every passing match.

I definitely think that Cook/Strauss/Trott/KP/Bell/Collingwood/Prior batting lineup was under appreciated in having that amount of quality playing at the same time.

I do think some might be down to conditions...maybe it's just my poor memory but certainly in England in the past five years, the overall scoring seems lower between all sides (maybe there are stats out there to prove this theory correct or not!), which will contribute to the lower averages. That, and of course the more hectic all round schedule (meaning there is barely any tour games for actual preparation for any red ball tour.)

But we are also clearly in a well established cycle of players coming through not being good enough, or being good enough and not hitting their potential.

Duty281 wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:When was the last time England produced a test match quality batsman (who went on to become that)? Must be over 5 years now I reckon

Maybe a first class competition where Darren Stevens is celebrated for being so potent isn't quite the quality needed eh

Only four English batsmen who have made their debuts from the 1st January 2010 have averaged over 35 (Ballance, Hameed, Root, Stokes). Otherwise it's a tale of woe.

The other batsmen otherwise tried have been Carberry, Morgan, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Moeen, Robson, Buttler, Lyth, Hales, Vince, Duckett, Jennings, Malan, Westley, Stoneman, Pope, Burns, Foakes, Denly, Roy, Sibley, Crawley, Lawrence, and Bracey. That's obviously not including some all-rounders like Samit or Woakes.

All-in-all that's 29 batsmen who have made their test debuts in the past 11 and a half years and only four of that 29 have made decent test averages. And even that four comes with caveats in that Hameed has played very few tests, and Stokes and Ballance are only just scraping over the 35 average line.

I won't go too harsh on batsmen's averages In England
For those who played their short careers only or predominantly in Eng....add about 7 to 10 runs to their average
for those who had a spread out career with half of their games in seaming English conditions like KP, Cook etal...add about 4 to 5 runs to their average

Both terrible reviews from Eng so far...missing by Mile

Robinson started well, but two reviews down in 19 overs. Very poor captaincy.

Ollie Robinson seems like a yard quicker version of Derek Pringle

25 from the opening 14 overs. Sedate stuff. England beat the bat on a number on occasions but not finding the decisive edge. Anderson a touch too short to be properly useful.

England have now lost their way. No energy in the field, a silly number of no-balls and the discipline is starting to fracture. A contrast with India yesterday who kept plugging away and putting it in the right areas even when they didn't get much reward for their early efforts.

Rain expected to hit around 15:00-16:00. Once it hits it'll likely curtail play for the day.

Robinson's deserved that, even if it came in the most unexpected fashion!

A wicket at least but very much India's session and test.

Unexpected wicket last ball before lunch, with Rohit not in control of an aerial shot. Deserved wicket for Robinson, on balance. Gives England a bit of a lift going into the interval. Kohli should be furious with that shot, India were only a few minutes away from a perfect session.

Horrible news about Archer - ruled out of the Ashes and World T20 with a stress fracture in his elbow. He should probably retire from tests to preserve his career in the limited-overs format, though whatever he does we're unlikely to see the best of him again. A real shame.

I hope the Ashes are cancelled this year. The players surely don't want a stay away from their families for months on end for yet another test series. England will only be able to send about half a first XI the way things are shaping up, and maybe not even that in the final reckoning.

On the current test - crucial 30 minutes coming up now England have the opening. At least a couple more wickets required in this period to get properly back into contention.

Saw it mentioned that maybe the Archer injury, along with Stone being out too, means we will see Mahmood or Carse this series with the Ashes in mind.

Very uncomfortable stay for Pujara ends after a beauty from Anderson. England hanging in there.

Why on earth the umpire sent it upstairs is beyond me.

And Kohli gone first ball after another scorcher.

Anderson vs Kohli. Okay then.

Sibley drops Rahul

India's batting crumbling as expected, with Rahane spectacularly run out the latest dismissal, but Sibley's just dropped a potentially key chance off Rahul's edge. Would have put England on top.

Rain not too far away. England want it to stay away.

Oh good, going off for light.

Might not get back on today. Rain just around the corner and light will always be an issue with heavy cloud. Plenty of rain forecast for tomorrow, too.

Good 50 minutes for England, though, especially Anderson. Right back in this test, all starting with Rohit's misplaced shot.

Ha, you wanna know another reason why this format is dying...middle of a fantastic spell, we're going off because it's a bit dark (despite the lights being on). Stupid stupid sport

And now it really is raining, no realistic prospect of further play today.

India's batting expectedly ..Pujara & Kohli do not score and only Pujara gets blamed

Rahane's R.O was freak but has been compensated by Rahul's runs

Nos 6,7 and 8 should score quick 20s and 30s and 40s and get us to a minimum of 50 and upto 80 runs lead

Every series against Ind Anderson produces one or two such rip-thru-heart of batting lineup spelss against India
He is a champion who one can NEVER take for granted especially in early games
BUT he tires as series progresses

Ha . Just as I was free to watch some of this the light/rain took 'em off...

Seems Anderson has dragged England back into it. Pity Sibley shelled that slips catch! Get a couple more when they get back on (tomorrow I guess ?) and things might be quite close. But remember England will have to bat again sometime

Bad but hardly unexpected news about Archer. I feared he wasn't going to make the t20 WC . And to be honest have always suspected he may never be able to play a lot of Test Cricket : given his injury history you couldn't blame him if he decides to concentrate on the shorter game. But we will see what happens after he's had a proper spell of complete rest.

Better hope Wood stays healthy.

KP_fan wrote:Every series against Ind Anderson produces one or two such rip-thru-heart of batting lineup spelss against India
He is a champion who one can NEVER take for granted especially in early games
BUT he tires as series progresses

True - I imagine they'd hope to "manage" him . But since he's very hard to replace they might be in trouble either way. One of the reasons I am much less optimistic than Duty.

Might see what this inspection at 16.00 produces...has the rain gone away or is it just teasing ?

alfie wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Every series against Ind Anderson produces one or two such rip-thru-heart of batting lineup spelss against India
He is a champion who one can NEVER take for granted especially in early games
BUT he tires as series progresses

True - I imagine they'd hope to "manage" him .  But since he's very hard to replace they might be in trouble either way. One of the reasons I am much less optimistic than Duty.

I'd expect Anderson to play in the second test with Woakes hopefully available for the third which will make changing the bowlers much easier as well as in theory strengthening the batting.

alfie wrote:Ha .  Just as I was free to watch some of this the light/rain took 'em off...

Seems Anderson has dragged England back into it. Pity Sibley shelled that slips catch! Get a couple more when they get back on (tomorrow I guess ?) and things might be quite close. But remember England will have to bat again sometime  

Bad but hardly unexpected news about Archer.  I feared he wasn't going to make the t20 WC . And to be honest have always suspected he may never be able to play a lot of Test Cricket : given his injury history you couldn't blame him if he decides to concentrate on the shorter game.  But we will see what happens after he's had a proper spell of complete rest.

Better hope Wood stays healthy.

Yes a massive shame about Jofra, and it is a huge blow for our t20 World Cup hopes to lose our best powerplay and death bowler in that format. I do think they have handled him pretty horribly, numerous injections into this troublesome elbow to keep him playing seems to have unfortunately done some serious long term damage (that's before we get onto the "on-field" overs management when he did play).
There is some hope of course, Pat Cummins had similar injury issues (with his back) and took a while to get right, but has done so and been fine for a few years now. Hopefully he can get back to playing, even if it is only white ball stuff only

As for The Ashes (if they even happen), I am already readying myself for the Matthew Wade 178* in the 4th test as Craig Overton pounds away for 0-112 off 27 overs. As JDizzle says, there have been murmurings that Mahmood might get a look in during this series...you have to think this Archer news increases that likelihood.

Robinson has bowled very well again today too - he's made a very impressive start to his international career, and I note Cricviz say he has a release point in terms of height similar to Kyle Jamieson...potentially useful option you'd think for Australia, even if he is not express pace.

Restart in a couple of minutes. Unsure how long play will last with more rain set to arrive, but hopefully it misses and the umpires don't get the dreaded light meter out.

England have to take advantage of these conditions. Couple more wickets in the next 30 minutes and they'll be on top in the test.

Oh feck off umpire. A few spots of rain and they go off again after one ball. Bloody stupid.

Ha . Waste of time staying up for that !

Any realistic chance of getting on again ? Who has the radar info ?

https://www.accuweather.com/en/gb/nottingham/ng1-7/minute-weather-forecast/330088

Periods of rain for the next two hours, so not too hopeful. Almost certainly a delayed start tomorrow as well.

alfie wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Every series against Ind Anderson produces one or two such rip-thru-heart of batting lineup spelss against India
He is a champion who one can NEVER take for granted especially in early games
BUT he tires as series progresses

True - I imagine they'd hope to "manage" him .  But since he's very hard to replace they might be in trouble either way. One of the reasons I am much less optimistic than Duty.

They should play him at a stretch 2 or 3 or 4 games until until you signs of him tiring

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

As for The Ashes (if they even happen), I am already readying myself for the Matthew Wade 178* in the 4th test as Craig Overton pounds away for 0-112 off 27 overs. As JDizzle says, there have been murmurings that Mahmood might get a look in during this series...you have to think this Archer news increases that likelihood.

Robinson has bowled very well again today too - he's made a very impressive start to his international career, and I note Cricviz say he has a release point in terms of height similar to Kyle Jamieson...potentially useful option you'd think for Australia, even if he is not express pace.

I'd expect Mahmood to play a fair bit in Australia, he's more likely to make something happen than your Overtons or Currans, he'll be expensive at times but worth the risk.

That doesn't surprise me about Robinson, has a very upright action combined with Jamieson bending a little bit upon release.

Play resuming at 5. Any chance of more than one delivery?

Wow, two deliveries that time before the rain fell. Off again. Silly sport this is.

Absolutely ludicrous afternoon of "cricket". Bit of a drizzle, we must head off!

Play abandoned for the day.

Weather forecast pretty bleak for tomorrow, so the draw is moving into a position of being a strong favourite.