South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

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SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 31 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai  
Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant Referees: Nic Berry (Australia), Mathieu Raynal (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker ( )

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 63 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 15 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 16 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 48 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain, Montpellier) – 50 caps, 477pts (6t, 78c, 93p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 31 caps, 25 pts (5t)

08 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap, 0 pts
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 52 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 41 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 87 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 38 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 49 caps, 5pts (1t)

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 35 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 44 caps, 5 pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Saracens) – 21 caps, 0 pts
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 46 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Marco van Staden (Vodacom Bulls) – 3 caps, 0 pts
21 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 8 caps, 5 pts (1t)
22 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 12 caps, 25 pts (5t)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 8 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790

01. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Taulupe Faletau (Bath Rugby, Wales) #779
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

PREVIEW:

And I have explained why I think that

the refs go thru a process with a "tip tackle".  You can hear them over the ref mike ( didn't for this one as it was obvious)

First - legs above horizontal yes / no - if yes then its foul play

then they establish degree of danger.  

Was he driven int the ground yes no - yes = red card, no - go on to next stage

Did he land on front / arms - low danger no card

land on back - moderate danger yellow card

land on head / neck - high danger red cad

this graduation was introduced about 5 years ago.  I have heard refs talk thru the process many times.

Owens later agreed it was no card when reminded of the process

Either way it definitely isn't citing worthy which has been mentioned a few times!

I think it is time to put the dubious calls to bed, the match is over, the scores are in and nothing is going to change that. Onto the next match.

TJ wrote:And I have explained why I think that

the refs go thru a process with a "tip tackle".  You can hear them over the ref mike ( didn't for this one as it was obvious)

First - legs above horizontal yes / no - if yes then its foul play

then they establish degree of danger.  

Was he driven int the ground yes no - yes = red card, no - go on to next stage

Did he land on front / arms - low danger no card

land on back - moderate danger yellow card

land on head / neck - high danger red cad

this graduation was introduced about 5 years ago.  I have heard refs talk thru the process many times.

Owens later agreed it was no card when reminded of the process

Where are you getting this from?

Yeah you're going to have to point to that as it starts on a red and then mitigation is applied. What Watson did was dangerous and deserved a yellow. I didn't hear Owens say anything after him saying he would be getting a card out. Guess we'll have to wait for Wayne Barnes' youtube video.

Regardless I suppose Watson will be upset at himself coming on and giving those infringements.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rassie-erasmus-active-social-media-presence-coming-under-suspicion-for-using-a-twitter-burner-account/

This is hilarious

Taking the ridiculousness out of the situation, surely it is bringing the game into disrepute for a DoR to be tweeting all these detailed videos and criticising decisions (from his personal account)? This is completely unprecedented. It's also a bit embarrassing TBH.

There are official channels to be raising refereeing concerns - Twitter very much isn't it.

It does look a bit suspect!

Personally if a coach wants to question things go for it. I thought the officials had a torrid time on Saturday, lots of little things missed on both sides. SA can clearly point towards the Watson missed yellow but they got away with an awful lot of pens themselves without warning, the advantage lengths etc etc. I remember the 2013 Wales England game (shudder) when Rowntree asked for scrum clarifications and was criticised for that too so there'll always be someone who thinks you should swallow it and get on regardless.

Re the match the old adage is never change a winning team, which I would completely ignore and make 3 changes and a position swap.

Whatever it is I am sure plenty of people will jump on the bandwagon of how wrong this is, how this is unacceptable etc.

Social media is a joke.

RDW wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rassie-erasmus-active-social-media-presence-coming-under-suspicion-for-using-a-twitter-burner-account/

This is hilarious

Taking the ridiculousness out of the situation, surely it is bringing the game into disrepute for a DoR to be tweeting all these detailed videos and criticising decisions (from his personal account)? This is completely unprecedented. It's also a bit embarrassing TBH.

There are official channels to be raising refereeing concerns - Twitter very much isn't it.

Bloody hell, this is a bit cringey.

Rassie has been quite active on twitter, directly or indirectly pointing out some preceived reffing errors. He also pointed out the incident when Mako picked up Cheslin by the shirt, pointing out the dangers of this, following a fall from height.

Looks like he is starting the mind games early thi week!

The Vunipola shirt lift could have been dangerous has Kolbe been really injured. Another example of why play acting needs to be cited as well, thinking of Jelonch more than anyone. When players think others are pulling legs they'll take the law into their own hands.

TJ wrote:And I have explained why I think that

the refs go thru a process with a "tip tackle".  You can hear them over the ref mike ( didn't for this one as it was obvious)

First - legs above horizontal yes / no - if yes then its foul play

then they establish degree of danger.  

Was he driven int the ground yes no - yes = red card, no - go on to next stage

Did he land on front / arms - low danger no card

land on back - moderate danger yellow card

land on head / neck - high danger red cad

this graduation was introduced about 5 years ago.  I have heard refs talk thru the process many times.

Owens later agreed it was no card when reminded of the process

That's not quite how it has been working in practice recently, though. It's no longer enough if the tackled player gets his arms up - if the player would have landed on his head but for his own actions, referees have been regularly giving cards, because the onus is on the tackler to put the ball carrier down safely.

A good example is this red card against Elia Elia from last season - Elia Elia red card. You can see from the gif that Robson lands in a way that's very similar to the way Le Roux landed, though the Elia tackle was a little worse as it had a bit more force behind it.

There's still some inconsistency in the application of the process, but it has been moving in this direction for a while.

TJ, lets move on from this tip tackle debate and move onto the next game. There was plenty of discussion about it on the last thread.

He got a penalty and did not get carded is the statement of fact about this and nothing else really matters.

Old Man wrote:I think it is time to put the dubious calls to bed, the match is over, the scores are in and nothing is going to change that. Onto the next match.

Yep, I'm with this.

We did this to death yesterday, time to move onto this weekend now.

RDW wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rassie-erasmus-active-social-media-presence-coming-under-suspicion-for-using-a-twitter-burner-account/

This is hilarious

Taking the ridiculousness out of the situation, surely it is bringing the game into disrepute for a DoR to be tweeting all these detailed videos and criticising decisions (from his personal account)? This is completely unprecedented. It's also a bit embarrassing TBH.

There are official channels to be raising refereeing concerns - Twitter very much isn't it.

Agree with you, but they tend to let Eddie Jones and whoever is coach of the ABs get away with it, so I imagine Rassie is also off the hook.

Does Eddie Jones use twitter?

I am wondering how long this debate over the tackles can be dragged out for. It has probably filled more pages than the actual game

Yep, getting tedious and boring.

MichaelT wrote:Does Eddie Jones use twitter?

Jeez can you imagine!

Eddie doesn’t need twitter, he uses mainstream media 

Why has my comment above laughing at the claim of an AWJ red card been deleted? At least delete TJ’s too for being incorrect.

Injury updates from Steve Tandy

Biggar expected to be fit after going through protocols

Wyn Jones unfortunately is doubtful

Finn back in full training and is in contention!

The Oracle wrote:Why has my comment above laughing at the claim of an AWJ red card been deleted? At least delete TJ’s too for being incorrect.

Trying to draw a line under this largely pointless debate Oracle, but yes I will delete TJs as well for completeness!

Okay I'd keep Sutherland as the starter, with Mako to come on in the second half. Too bad for Wyn Jones, hopefully he's available for the third test as he deserves his shot. I might rotate the hookers too but otherwise not too many changes for me. I think Gats will keep largely the same, but I expect Curry and Daly might not be starting.

If Biggar is fit, hard to see him not starting.

Does he roll the dice with Finn on the bench is probably the big question.

The safety factor of Farrell to close things out (though it does have to be said, he made a few mistakes last weekend) or the risk of Finn running a tiring Boks team around a bit more and breaking their defensive line?

With the game in hand and the need to change things up, my heart says Finn but the head says Farrell!

Old Man wrote:Eddie doesn’t need twitter, he uses mainstream media 

I know there is a lot of hate for Eddie but his ability to get the media going with a single comments is a bit special

lostinwales wrote:

Old Man wrote:Eddie doesn’t need twitter, he uses mainstream media 

I know there is a lot of hate for Eddie but his ability to get the media going with a single comments is a bit special

I think hate is a bit strong.

He is a pantomime villain and he just loves playing that role!

Ooft are we ready for some Finnsanity?

My big concern with Finn is he's hardly played on the tour, and more than any other player people need time to get close to his wavelength. If Harris comes in and everyone else keeps their place that will help, but it's still a risk.

If Biggar is fit I think he'll start. I agree Biggee that it's worth rolling the dice on Finn off the bench this test. Combine our big carriers late in the game with Finn's gainline distribution and that could cause a lot of damage.

I’d like to see Hamish from the start. I also like the idea of Beirne at 6 but it would be incredibly harsh to drop Lawes after such a good performance last time. Wyn Jones out or doubtful…… so no major forward changes for me. Maybe just Watson at 7. But then, what a player to bring on when the Boks are tiring!

Backs - maybe Harris for Daly. I like Adams and think he deserves a test appearance but again I think it would be harsh on VDM or Watson after the 1st test appearances. So keep ‘em I say.

Thing with Gatland is that he never liked to make too many changes (in all his years at Wales). If a player messed up then he liked to give him a chance to redeem himself the following week, and keep giving him chances until he proved Gatland right in picking him in the first place! So players like Daly who didn’t have the best game….I can see Gatland picking him again to work on his errors.

Sutherland struggled, at times, in the scrum so if Wyn Jones isn't available I'd switch Mako & Sutherland & start Owens at 2 in place of LCD. Only other change, in the pack, I would think about is Hamish to start at 7 but it's very tight between him & Curry.

lostinwales wrote:

Old Man wrote:Eddie doesn’t need twitter, he uses mainstream media 

I know there is a lot of hate for Eddie but his ability to get the media going with a single comments is a bit special

I enjoy old Eddie, in fact I think he is one of those students of the game that makes me think of the mad professor. 

H.Watson made no impact, went backwards in contact. Curry outperformed him.

https://twitter.com/thenosyone987/status/1419377262512771081

I noticed all these at the time, except for van der Merwe clearing out coming in from the side ("the side" is generous to him)

I'm not so fussed about the length of advantage complaint. Advantage should be about whether you have made productive use of possession after the other team has infringed. Le Roux made a clear break, which led the ref to call advantage over just as he spilled the ball. The Lions went nowhere with their advantage, so it wasn't called over.

For the spi

Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

TightHEAD wrote:H.Watson made no impact, went backwards in contact. Curry outperformed him.

you made that up

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

It's all a bit ridiculous, I wouldn't be surprised if the players themselves think that all the inter-nation bickering in the media is a nonsense.

Does anyone have an injury update in general?

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

It is a bit pathetic, don’t you think, but it is the sign of the times, we all have feelings, didn’t you know? 

latest update

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/british-and-irish-lions-injury-news-wyn-jones-doubtful-but-finn-russell-in-contention-for-second-test/ar-AAMzuxY?ocid=msedgntp

Prop Wyn Jones remains a “doubt” for Saturday’s second Lions Test against South Africa with the “minor shoulder injury” that ruled him out of the series opener.

The more positive news for the Lions is that the citing commissioner opted not to take further action against any player, which will be a relief to Hamish Watson, while Finn Russell is back in training after an achilles issue and could come into contention.

The Lions will name their side for the second Test tomorrow, but Jones – an eleventh hour withdrawal from Saturday’s victory in Cape Town – appears unlikely to be involved.

Defence coach Steve Tandy said he was “doubtful”, but that there are no plans to call up a fourth loosehead prop at this stage.

Mako Vunipola, who performed well off the bench, could usurp Rory Sutherland in the No1 jersey.

Dan Biggar is undergoing return to play protocols following a head injury, and will be unable to train until Thursday at least. If he does not make it, Russell could be involved.

“Finn starts training with us today,” he said. “He could potentially be in the mix. I know he’s been reacting well to training so we will discuss it this evening.”

Replacement Watson did not receive a card for a tip-tackle on South Africa full-back Willie le Roux, but has not been cited.


So some good news. Think Watson will learn and not get so excited.


For me, team to remain very similar, with Harris on for Daly the only change (think Vinapola better from the bench, but would not complain if he started)

Old Man wrote:

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

It is a bit pathetic, don’t you think, but it is the sign of the times, we all have feelings, didn’t you know? 

Do South Africans have feelings?

SA are going to be massively targeting this one...Time to tighten up a bit in defence.

Harris in for Daly
Adams in for VDM

Navidi for Watson on the bench.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

It is a bit pathetic, don’t you think, but it is the sign of the times, we all have feelings, didn’t you know? 

Do South Africans have feelings?

Good question, but yes, even in our society you get the sensitive ones, I think 

Sgt_Pooly wrote:SA are going to be massively targeting this one...Time to tighten up a bit in defence.

Harris in for Daly
Adams in for VDM

Navidi for Watson on the bench.

If they want to save the series they will have to go all in.

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

Are you being serious RDW?! You founded these boards! I’ve been around them ever since the start and it’s been EXACTLY the same for every 6N and Lions tour. I actually think it’s been pretty mild on here so far (although I appreciate you’re talking about other platforms too). The last few tours have driven posters away. The micro dissection of every act against a team in the 6N has run to pages and pages, often with a dedicated thread! You wait til AWJ knocks on or something!

The Oracle wrote:

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

Are you being serious RDW?! You founded these boards! I’ve been around them ever since the start and it’s been EXACTLY the same for every 6N and Lions tour. I actually think it’s been pretty mild on here so far (although I appreciate you’re talking about other platforms too). The last few tours have driven posters away. The micro dissection of every act against a team in the 6N has run to pages and pages, often with a dedicated thread! You wait til AWJ knocks on or something!

He'll need to attempt a carry to knock on......only messing!!!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

Are you being serious RDW?! You founded these boards! I’ve been around them ever since the start and it’s been EXACTLY the same for every 6N and Lions tour. I actually think it’s been pretty mild on here so far (although I appreciate you’re talking about other platforms too). The last few tours have driven posters away. The micro dissection of every act against a team in the 6N has run to pages and pages, often with a dedicated thread! You wait til AWJ knocks on or something!

He'll need to attempt a carry to knock on......only messing!!!

He’s carrying the team with his 10/10 performances. Isn’t that enough?!

The Oracle wrote:

RDW wrote:Tell you what has anyone ever known a game to be so partisan in the aftermath? Between the Lions nations bickering amongst each other to Bok fans tweeting clips of every single unpunished act...it's all a bit much. It's not like there's been one major controversy (e.g. BoD 2005) - it just feels like death by a thousand cuts.

Is this really what rugby has become...?

I do think I need to take a Twitter break as a start!

Are you being serious RDW?! You founded these boards! I’ve been around them ever since the start and it’s been EXACTLY the same for every 6N and Lions tour. I actually think it’s been pretty mild on here so far (although I appreciate you’re talking about other platforms too). The last few tours have driven posters away. The micro dissection of every act against a team in the 6N has run to pages and pages, often with a dedicated thread! You wait til AWJ knocks on or something!

Fair.

My comment was more directed towards the media and social media in general TBF. I know this place has always been a bit of a basket case when it comes to Lions tours!

In my effort to be partially partisan, for the next match I can't see many changes.  If Wyn Jones is still out then I would probably keep the pack mostly as it was.  Mako has had one good performance this calendar year, fortunately for the Lions it came on Saturday.  But I am not willing to trade one good cameo for a starting position.  The only other change I might contemplate would be Falatau for Conan.  I thought Conan was fairly invisible, but others thought he had a good game, so I am OK either way.

The backs become a bit of an issue for me.  If healthy, Biggar has to start.  But, and this is a big but (as opposed to a big butt), I prefer Russell to Farrell because he can move the ball around in a way Farrell could only dream of.  But I really don't trust either one.  In the 6 Nations Russell had that trip which I thought should have been red and then the forearm to the throat at the end of the France game which was a red.  Farrell is a head shot waiting to happen and slows play down.   Frankly, I would be OK with Smith on the bench.  But (1) it won't happen so give me Russell, and (2) Biggar is not allowed to get hurt again.  Now the real challenge is if Biggar and Russell can't go, then the sh!t will really fly....

Daly on the bench as a sub seems right, and I thought that is where he would be at the beginning of the tour.  So, I suppose Henshaw-Harris?   On the wing, it still seems somehow unfair that Adams is left out, but how do you swap out VDM or Watson?
Though if one has to make way, I would pull VDM.  Liam Williams needs to be on the bench.  Between him and Daly virtually the entire back line is covered and gives great options late on.  

I did engage in blatant partisanship in this piece, but for whom???

Well Vunipola is rumoured to start.