Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

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A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

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First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

Oakdene wrote:So if we beat the Aussies will anyone else think it's been a decent Autumn series for us?

It'll depend how we beat them, I think. If they're poor and we still struggle to put them away, then that won't paper over the cracks any more than the win over Fiji did. It doesn't bode well that we struggled to create / find space against 13 men, never mind against 14.

No9 wrote:Wales v Australia: Captain Michael Hooper ruled out with James Slipper taking over role https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59302867

With Hooper out, wonder who's got the role for late tackling Biggar this time..    

Based on our experience from Saturday they have plenty of late and high hit specialists.

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not aimed at intent but at recklessness. We can reduce that by proper red cards and bans rather than letting them off as its a 'mans game'.

Not about being a man's game, it is about being a contact sport, as long as you have contact in rugby you will never eliminate incidents that go wrong due to timing, "not being in a realistic position" etc.

Well yes, and that's my point, reducing recklessness. If players are sent off because they're gone in too strongly to try to make the big tackle, with too much speed and they hit a head and are sent off; well, good. They need to alter their poor technique.

Going in for a hard hit, is not poor technique necessarily. Ball carriers play a role in how they are tackled, if they dip, if they feign, jink etc, impossble for a tackler to recover his angle or height in an instant.

It's on the tackler to ensure he makes the tackle safely. It is not down to the ball carrier to ensure he allows himself to be tackled safely, absurd point of view really. If you go for the dominant hit you run the risk of messing up your timing.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not aimed at intent but at recklessness. We can reduce that by proper red cards and bans rather than letting them off as its a 'mans game'.

Not about being a man's game, it is about being a contact sport, as long as you have contact in rugby you will never eliminate incidents that go wrong due to timing, "not being in a realistic position" etc.

Well yes, and that's my point, reducing recklessness. If players are sent off because they're gone in too strongly to try to make the big tackle, with too much speed and they hit a head and are sent off; well, good. They need to alter their poor technique.

Going in for a hard hit, is not poor technique necessarily. Ball carriers play a role in how they are tackled, if they dip, if they feign, jink etc, impossble for a tackler to recover his angle or height in an instant.

It's on the tackler to ensure he makes the tackle safely. It is not down to the ball carrier to ensure he allows himself to be tackled safely, absurd point of view really. If you go for the dominant hit you run the risk of messing up your timing.

Not absurd, but hey, lets agree to disagree

The tackler should go lower. Absolute poor technique or its reckless as the my can't change their height in time. Nothing to disagree about tbf it's just the laws as they are.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Oakdene wrote:So if we beat the Aussies will anyone else think it's been a decent Autumn series for us?

It'll depend how we beat them, I think. If they're poor and we still struggle to put them away, then that won't paper over the cracks any more than the win over Fiji did. It doesn't bode well that we struggled to create / find space against 13 men, never mind against 14.

I think if we win it will be a decent Autumn, not a great one. NZ and SA are right up there as the world’s best, so no shame in losing those. There were a few that predicted 4 losses, so 2 from 4 with our injury list will suffice.

Wales are seemingly bookmakers’ favourites, for this weekend. I am a little surprised.

Is it April fool’s day?! Can’t see what makes us favourites, apart from home advantage perhaps. But even so, we’re ranked well below them and have not been playing well.

The Oracle wrote:Is it April fool’s day?!  Can’t see what makes us favourites, apart from home advantage perhaps.  But even so, we’re ranked well below them and have not been playing well.

It is a very poor Australian team though. You can't compare it to the one that beat the Boks even though some of the personnel are the same. Very strong forward pack but with limited running threat (the no.8 and 6 are a handful but nothing exceptional). Backs have some individual talent but nothing compared to the players they don't have available and JOC is not getting them running at all.

In 80 minutes vs England they manages 27s in our 22. JOC's kicking was good but they never ever looked like scoring a try.

Fair points, LIW, but Wales have a very poor pack currently due to injuries.  We’re down to considering starting a 3rd or 4th choice prop and a youth lock!  So a ‘very strong forward pack’ worries me immensely.  And our defence is rather leaky too.  Oz won’t face such a stern test as they did against England so I think they’ll have more opportunity to attack, etc.

Edit: ‘youth’ is probably a bit harsh to describe some of the lock options being considered. But young and pretty inexperienced anyway.

What they did do is stop our mauling game pretty much altogether. The pack is typified by Arnold, who is huge, very safe in the lineout and a menace in those mauls but relatively immobile. They also have real problems at prop, at least against us with Slipper starting out of position as a tighthead and his only backup being a guy they plucked at the last minute from relative obscurity at London Irish.

Find it hard to call with both teams depleted. Thought Aus were unlucky to lose against Scotland and vice versa Wales Fiji. Aus looked absolutely toothless against us tbh, but the pack looked decent and with Wales losing Rowlands I'm back to being completely unsure. I guess Tshiunza will come in (I'm still doubting he actually qualifies for Wales so wait 10 years for that to come out) and he looked decent in his cameo.

One of the teams to win by less than 5 for me!

Isn't the Tshiunza residency thing just that he's not classed as having left Wales as he is still in uni? It was like when I went to uni on Bristol, I was still technically a Welsh domiciled student. I just happened to be studying away for those years. If Tshiunza had signed for Exeter and not gone to uni at all and had just left Wales to play pro rugby then yes he would lose his residency. But studying away is not classed as leaving home as uni is not classed as a permanent home. Something like that anyway.

We could see Tshiunza, Carter and Davies all in the 23 this weekend then. I think we might have an advantage in the back 3 if anywhere. That has to be LRZ, McNicholl and Williams - either of the latter 2 at Full-Back. Jmac has been in good form. Centre's could be two 12's - Tompkins and Halaholo, I think these two have been in better form compared to others, I expect Biggar will start at fly-half if that is the midfield. Always difficult to figure out Pivac's selection policy but I guess the front-row will be Carre, Elias, Lewis (Jones, Dee, Thomas).

The Oracle wrote:Isn't the Tshiunza residency thing just that he's not classed as having left Wales as he is still in uni?  It was like when I went to uni on Bristol, I was still technically a Welsh domiciled student.  I just happened to be studying away for those years.  If Tshiunza had signed for Exeter and not gone to uni at all and had just left Wales to play pro rugby then yes he would lose his residency.  But studying away is not classed as leaving home as uni is not classed as a permanent home.  Something like that anyway.

It's stretching it isn't it when he's on a pro contract and playing for Wales. I think it suits both Wales and WR to turn a blind eye though as to all intents and purposes he is Welsh.

Well he only had 10 minutes but he did look good.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Isn't the Tshiunza residency thing just that he's not classed as having left Wales as he is still in uni?  It was like when I went to uni on Bristol, I was still technically a Welsh domiciled student.  I just happened to be studying away for those years.  If Tshiunza had signed for Exeter and not gone to uni at all and had just left Wales to play pro rugby then yes he would lose his residency.  But studying away is not classed as leaving home as uni is not classed as a permanent home.  Something like that anyway.

It's stretching it isn't it when he's on a pro contract and playing for Wales. I think it suits both Wales and WR to turn a blind eye though as to all intents and purposes he is Welsh.

How is it a blind eye?  It's not cheating the system.  Being a student somewhere else is not classed as a permanent move away.  Wales is his current home.  He signed for Exeter (I think) while at already at uni.  If I've got that wrong then I'm happy to be corrected.  So he didn't move away to sign a pro contract.  It's no different than the Aussie players who come over to go to Oxford or Cambridge (e.g. James Horwill recently). Some of them are already international players so are 'tied'.  But others who have not played for Australia (or for any other country for that matter) do not suddenly lose their Australian nationality just because they went to uni in England. Australia is still their home.

I think it's stretching the rules there, as he's got the job with Exeter, so he's a pro moving out of the country of qualification. the turning of a blind eye as I think everyone would expect that the 10 year rule covers him as pretty much it was designed to do so. If he had failed to qualify it'll be months in it hence why I think it suits to not ask too many questions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think it's stretching the rules there, as he's got the job with Exeter, so he's a pro moving out of the country of qualification. the turning of a blind eye as I think everyone would expect that the 10 year rule covers him as pretty much it was designed to do so. If he had failed to qualify it'll be months in it hence why I think it suits to not ask too many questions.

He went to Exeter Uni & then signed for Exeter, doesn't make him any less Welsh for me.

Just for clarification, why don't people think Christ Tshiunza is not Welsh qualified ? Do they think the WRU, World Rugby, and any other authority have not done their due diligence ?

LordDowlais wrote:Just for clarification, why don't people think Christ Tshiunza is not Welsh qualified ? Do they think the WRU, World Rugby, and any other authority have not done their due diligence  ?

I think there's some doubt. A few months in it either way. And World Rugby would not normally check as it's stated in the rules that it's up to the home union.

From what I have seen it seems as if the Oz tightheads who missed the Eng game will be back for Wales

Yeah Taniela Tupou's available again apparently.

Swines! Waited til we were at our lowest ebb, prop-wise, and then KAPOW! Bring back their props!

Could we be looking at Wyn Jones on the wrong side (TH) and Dillon Lewis at LH? Doesn’t fill me with confidence.

I think too much has been put on this resurgent Wallabies scum, I really can't see them troubling Wales in this department. I fancy a Welsh win by 7.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think too much has been put on this resurgent Wallabies scum, I really can't see them troubling Wales in this department. I fancy a Welsh win by 7.

Bit strong for these boards, Sgt_Pooly

Over the last 2 years I think Wales has had a worse scrum than the Wallabies. Tupou is class.

Wales: L Williams; Rees-Zammit, Tompkins, Halaholo, Adams; Biggar, T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Beard, S Davies, Jenkins (capt), Basham, Wainwright.

Replacements: Dee, G Thomas, Lewis, Carter, Tshiunza, G Davies, Priestland, McNicholl.

Would have swapped Halaholo and Tompkins around. Don't get the back-row, the treble open-sides hasn't been helping us go foward. I suppose at least Pivac didn't bottle it in the midfield and go for JD2.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales: L Williams; Rees-Zammit, Tompkins, Halaholo, Adams; Biggar, T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Beard, S Davies, Jenkins (capt), Basham, Wainwright.

Replacements: Dee, G Thomas, Lewis, Carter, Tshiunza, G Davies, Priestland, McNicholl.

Would have swapped Halaholo and Tompkins around. Don't get the back-row, the treble open-sides hasn't been helping us go foward. I suppose at least Pivac didn't bottle it in the midfield and go for JD2.

JD2 injured or have they decided to accept that the years have caught up with him?

He's not injured as far as I'm aware.

So we've got two rookie locks covering the back row, am I right?

He’s not injured no. I am pretty surprised Pivac has dropped him, but he wants to look at Tompkins and Halaholo.

I assume Christ is the backrow cover. Or perhaps they may move Davies back, if the need arises.

Pretty good starting line up, if it does remain the same (ie if Adams remains fit and Francis’ independent consultation goes ok).

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we've got two rookie locks covering the back row, am I right?

I guess once Seb Davies was selected at lock, it was always going to be that way. Apart from Thomas Young (another open side) are there any more fit backrowers in the squad??

Judging by the centre partnership, the team is being sent out to play open rugby. In fact, if that area clicks, the backline looks exciting and high quality.

Happier with Wyn Jones and Francis starting up front, I hope Dee is fit enough if he’s called upon early on. The planning for post AWJ is clearly at full steam, the average age of the 4 locks is about 22!

chris_501 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So we've got two rookie locks covering the back row, am I right?

I guess once Seb Davies was selected at lock, it was always going to be that way. Apart from Thomas Young (another open side) are there any more fit backrowers in the squad??

Judging by the centre partnership, the team is being sent out to play open rugby. In fact, if that area clicks, the backline looks exciting and high quality.

Happier with Wyn Jones and Francis starting up front, I hope Dee is fit enough if he’s called upon early on. The planning for post AWJ is clearly at full steam, the average age of the 4 locks is about 22!

Francis isn't 100% certain of playing yet.

I expected Carre to start as he has been doing, but he's vanished too. How does Wyn Jones cover TH if he's also starting and isn't 100%....

Starting backs are actually OK. Better than expected as I thought more would be out injured. Tomos W always seems to lift the tempo when he comes on (vs Hardy) so happy to see him start. Biggar needs a big game as he was a bit off vs Fiji. Think he got frustrated that the ref was a bit pedantic and didn’t allow Biggar to take quick kicks to touch, etc. Centres are perhaps a slight weakness. I like Halaholo at Cardiff but I’m not overly sold on him yet at International level. Nice to see him start though so hopefully that will give him a good chance to show what he can do. Didn’t expect to see Adams, so happy he’s back. He hasn’t had a great time of it of late and is at risk of being a 1 (or 2) season wonder. Just not able to be as prolific as a few years back, possibly as we’re not creating as much (issues with the rest of our play).

Forwards - I was worried we’d see an out of position Wyn Jones and Dillon Lewis but we’ve actually got a decent front row on paper. Just question marks around the fitness of Wyn Jones and Francis, but at least they’re in their proper positions. Agree with Mikey about the back row looking a bit light. The bench looks inexperienced and could be our undoing too. If we get an early lock injury then we’re in trouble, although I rate Carter as one for the future.

Overall, slightly better than what I was expecting us to put out but a big worry over the ‘finishers’ and how long some of our starting injury worries will last.

Still think our best 9 is playing for Italy...

The Oracle wrote:Starting backs are actually OK.  Better than expected as I thought more would be out injured.  Tomos W always seems to lift the tempo when he comes on (vs Hardy) so happy to see him start. Biggar needs a big game as he was a bit off vs Fiji.  Think he got frustrated that the ref was a bit pedantic and didn’t allow Biggar to take quick kicks to touch, etc.  Centres are perhaps a slight weakness.  I like Halaholo at Cardiff but I’m not overly sold on him yet at International level.  Nice to see him start though so hopefully that will give him a good chance to show what he can do.  Didn’t expect to see Adams, so happy he’s back.  He hasn’t had a great time of it of late and is at risk of being a 1 (or 2) season wonder.  Just not able to be as prolific as a few years back, possibly as we’re not creating as much (issues with the rest of our play).

I thought he overstepped the mark by quite a distance the way he spoke to the referee at one point.

Australia: Beale; Kellaway, Ikitau, Paisami, Daugunu; O'Connor, White; Slipper (capt), Latu, Tupou, Arnold, Rodda, Leota, Samu, Valetini.

Replacements: Fainga'a, Bell, Alaalatoa, Skelton, Swinton, McDermott, Foketi, Wright.

Good forwards and replacement forwards.

Ultimate forwards v backs game

Five week ban for Eroni Sau. Think that’s a little harsh, but it does show that the view is that it is not a yellow card offence.

Personally, I think it is sufficient punishment that he was red carded and don’t like to see his club suffering as part of the ban.

RiscaGame wrote:Five week ban for Eroni Sau. Think that’s a little harsh, but it does show that the view is that it is not a yellow card offence.

Personally, I think it is sufficient punishment that he was red carded and don’t like to see his club suffering as part of the ban.

If we want to stamp that kind of foul play out of the game, the bans need to be deterrents. It may be that clubs start to look at the behaviour of potential signings and how likely they are to pick up these bans and decide not to sign them, in that case, behaviour will change rapidly.

Fair enough.

The three doubts are seemingly confirmed as fit (Francis, Wainwright, and Adams).

A great start to the day, with a wonderful Newport result.

I think that might be as good as it gets, rugby results wise for me today.

WRU going all out, playing lots of Sir Tom, Max Boyce and now the Manics. Must be trying to get the crowd really going.

Perhaps not now, with this song. Guess it’s a Welsh cover?

Really strong start.

Well we know what the Aussies are going to do. Kicks in behind into that space. Got to find a counter.

Another red.

Another justified red too.