F1 2021 Season

First topic message reminder :

Jeff Navarro wrote:I’ve watched f1, and motorsports in general, for many years and I’ve never seen the bartering of penalties.

Beyond a joke.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:There were also lapped cars left between Verstappen in second and Sainz in third, meaning Verstappen had absolutely no concern about anything going on behind him. .....

Another excellent point. I think it is those that take F1 seriously as a sport that are going to suffer with this. I didn't like the sprint race weekends, I think they are squeezing too many races into the season - and then we had this farce. Maybe it is heading for a form of WWE entertainment. Let them bring in reverse grids next.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Afro wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:
Does anyone know why RB boxed Perez by the way? It was clearly tactical but what did it gain?

They had to retire the car. Sensors must have picked up something was about to fail. Sad for Checo after the race he had.

Or they short fueled him to make him quicker to be able to help Max more?

I like it but you may have dropped your tinfoil hat somewhere.

My best guess is they saw something in the telemetry that was a bit worrying, and obviously if Perez had had to park up anywhere on track it would almost certainly have extended the SC, so they retired the car rather than risk it. Perez certainly seemed surprised, so it's not as if the car stopped working. So my suspicion is that in a normal race situation they would have left Perez out and taken the risk, but obviously this was not a normal situation. Can't complain too much about it TBH, albeit there's probably a banter timeline in which Hamilton tries to defend too hard at the re-start, crashes out, and the decision costs RB the constructors' championship.

Yeah, this makes sense. Just removed any risk of the car failing. Certainly nothing to complain about. I was just curious as to the reasoning.

There’s reports breaking from British media outlets that Mercedes are set to end appeal against yesterday's result. Not sure why at this stage.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The idea "the future of F1 is at stake" is a rather ridiculous over exaggeration

Either F1 is a genuine sport with proper rules and regulations that are adhered to, in which case Hamilton is the winner, or it's scripted entertainment like WWE which has rules which can be ignored whenever the race director/TPTB deem it appropriate to.

And if we're going with the latter, as it seems, then it creates a precedent far removed from proper sporting ideals.

Imagine next season and one driver is eighty points ahead going into the final race. Not very exciting, is it? Give him an eighty point deduction and have some 'entertainment' for the final race, why not? Has one driver won the last four races and is on pole for the fifth? Not very interesting, is it? Let's give him a grid penalty and stick him at the back, why not? One driver 25 seconds ahead in a race, that's a bit dull, right? Let's give him a drive-through penalty and give the fans some 'excitement' for the final few laps.

Jeff Navarro wrote:There’s reports breaking from British media outlets that Mercedes are set to end appeal against yesterday's result. Not sure why at this stage.

Strange, because many barristers specialising in international arbitration and litigation, have pretty much come out, stating Mercedes would have an extremely strong case. You never know what is going on behind the scenes though, and whether Lewis himself, is possibly behind them rolling back on this appeal.

It’s wait and see. If they do not proceed with taking this further, it’s still an utterly disgraceful result and conclusion, to the championship. Tainted.

The most troubling part of this to me is the way the FIA have had to basically completely reconstruct the wording of their own rule book to back up the original decision. 48.13 blatantly does not override 48.12 nor does 15.3 entitle the Race Director to ignore the rules. This outcome should have been overruled last night once it became obvious how clear the rules were that Masi had ignored. Unfortunate for Max but the right outcome.

As it is, Verstappen will keep a title he should not have won. We just have to hope that this type of thing never happens again. Sporting integrity should always override the desire to create a spectacle. As it is, if there isn’t some form of acknowledgement by FIA of the mess that was made of this incident, I won’t be watching F1 again.

Born Slippy wrote:The most troubling part of this to me is the way the FIA have had to basically completely reconstruct the wording of their own rule book to back up the original decision. 48.13 blatantly does not override 48.12 nor does 15.3 entitle the Race Director to ignore the rules. This outcome should have been overruled last night once it became obvious how clear the rules were that Masi had ignored. Unfortunate for Max but the right outcome.

As it is, Verstappen will keep a title he should not have won. We just have to hope that this type of thing never happens again. Sporting integrity should always override the desire to create a spectacle. As it is, if there isn’t some form of acknowledgement by FIA of the mess that was made of this incident, I won’t be watching F1 again.

It's been obvious for years that the administrators in F1 play favourites. The comment that FIA stood for Ferrari International Assistance was pretty much based in fact, and it has been obvious for much of this season that they wanted a new Champion, first by the regulation changes that made the RB competitive with (overall slightly faster than) the Mercedes, and then with some of the steward judgements. This last one was too blatant though. Having said that, Max probably deserved to win the title this year, and would have been well clear but for being taken out at SIlverstone and Hungary and mis-fortune with the tyres in Baku (more than offsetting the ridiculous points for the non-race in Belgium).

https://youtu.be/OO0y1yDBURs

Get Fernando in the race director seat

Just Gareth wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:There’s reports breaking from British media outlets that Mercedes are set to end appeal against yesterday's result. Not sure why at this stage.

Strange, because many barristers specialising in international arbitration and litigation, have pretty much come out, stating Mercedes would have an extremely strong case. You never know what is going on behind the scenes though, and whether Lewis himself, is possibly behind them rolling back on this appeal.

It’s wait and see. If they do not proceed with taking this further, it’s still an utterly disgraceful result and conclusion, to the championship. Tainted.

Verstappen, doing some media activities today, confirmed both Hamilton and Wolff had messaged him to congratulate him.
Seems odd they would congratulate him if they plan to go to court.

Can't find Vettel during the SC but he was fairly adamant post race that they should've gotten on with the unlapping.

Poor Bottas, nobody wanted to talk to him

GSC wrote:Can't find Vettel during the SC but he was fairly adamant post race that they should've gotten on with the unlapping.

Poor Bottas, nobody wanted to talk to him

Sebastian was looking for his prize for most overtakes

It should be pointed out, Lewis was not happy when McLaren went to CAS to try and get 2 cars dqed in 2017 to make him Champion.

There's also the prospect even if you did win that you don't get the lap countback. If CAS just declared the race null and void Max is champion anyway.

Lando losing p5 to a puncture has to sting. Feels like he's faded the last two years after the break

Jeff Navarro wrote:

Just Gareth wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:There’s reports breaking from British media outlets that Mercedes are set to end appeal against yesterday's result. Not sure why at this stage.

Strange, because many barristers specialising in international arbitration and litigation, have pretty much come out, stating Mercedes would have an extremely strong case. You never know what is going on behind the scenes though, and whether Lewis himself, is possibly behind them rolling back on this appeal.

It’s wait and see. If they do not proceed with taking this further, it’s still an utterly disgraceful result and conclusion, to the championship. Tainted.

Verstappen, doing some media activities today, confirmed both Hamilton and Wolff had messaged him to congratulate him.
Seems odd they would congratulate him if they plan to go to court.

If nothing else, their beef is with the FIA not Max though.

There are many reasons why Mercedes (F1) may drop the case.  

Firstly the parent company may tell them to drop it - this is all about appearances - if they deem it will create a negative image for them.  The bottom line is that the parent company only bankroll it and allow them to use their name because it gives them good publicity

Secondly, Toto Wolff and Hamilton love the process of Formula 1 driving.  It is a "hobby" career which brings them huge financial reward and international acclaim.  Yes this result is deeply  gutting and totally contrived (by Massi) but they can rationalize it (one race out of the season).  They will want assurances regarding that this type of thing won't happen in future and better clarity as to the powers of the racing director.   I have concluded Masi's decision is totally indefensible as regards sporting integrity, the rule book, his powers as racing director - but the decision was made, it happened, the media broadcasted it.  Also remember the season when the last race had double points in order to try to keep the title challenge alive to the last race - sporting integrity has been steadily eroded. Again I think the "Masi decision" was a new level of sporting integrity loss.

Thirdly F1 racing is changing.  It is shifting towards entertainment both for the race attending fans which allows race tracks to make some sort of profit out of it and for the global fans (allowing major broadcasters and media platforms to make some sort of profit out of it) - with sprint races, leveling the playing field new regulations and maybe reverse grids in future.  There is also a view that they have to go "carbon neutral" and to push for the woke society (together we race as one etc) for the purpose of good publicity and brand value.  Race drivers and racing teams get to do something they love for rich reward etc but sporting integrity is reduced.

No name Bertie wrote:Thirdly F1 racing is changing.  It is shifting towards entertainment both for the race attending fans which allows race tracks to make some sort of profit out of it and for the global fans (allowing major broadcasters and media platforms to make some sort of profit out of it) - with sprint races, leveling the playing field new regulations and maybe reverse grids in future.  There is also a view that they have to go "carbon neutral" and to push for the woke society (together we race as one etc) for the purpose of good publicity and brand value.  Race drivers and racing teams get to do something they love for rich reward etc but sporting integrity is reduced.

Then F1 is dead, to me.

They’d rather prioritise the the commercial interests of the promoter, above the integrity of the sport forever. Should just throw in the sprinklers for next season and be done with it. Wouldn’t blame Lewis for calling it a day, either.

Well we managed to get "woke" into this somehow .

Not sure how much appetite there really is for a sustained court case to be honest. We know Lewis didn't want it in 2007 and I doubt he wants to be seen to be trying to break Schumis record in a courtroom. As you say, the parent company is going to be sensitive to any PR that they could pick up from going that route.

Horner got told to fly back to HQ yesterday and skip the various post season tests to spearhead RBs response. Mateschitz isn't gonna let this go, so it would be Mercedes opposed by two legal teams ultimately

McLaren the only team to have a 1-2 this season is a great stat

GSC wrote:McLaren the only team to have a 1-2 this season is a great stat

That's an amazing stat

What it does show is how far ahead of their team mates Hamilton and Verstappen were, and how close the Merc and RB were, that the elite drivers made the difference.

Sainz picking up p5 almost by attrition to be best of the rest. Really it was Danny Ric who cost McLaren in that fight. Needs a big year next year or they'll be casting eyes at Gasly I'm guessing.

Gasly pretty much alone by himself atop the rest of the drivers. Aston losing to Alpine by a distance probably makes this a disappointing "debut" season.

Russell dragging Williams above Alfa Romeo will be a big gap for them to fill next season. Haas probably on the outs of Formula 1 if they don't improve in the new regs.

Shout-out to Robert Kubica who appeared in 2 races in an Alfa Romeo, and finished above Nikita Mazepin in the standing

Further stuff being unearthed now, in regards to Masi, and how he dealt with a similar situation at the Eifel Grand Prix at Nurburgring.

After Norris’ engine fire, he stated,

”There’s a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past,”

So again, more evidence of Masi's actions at Abu Dhabi, being a direct contradiction of his own ruling, from back in, 2020.

Can see why they aren’t bothering, but Ferrari got bent over too, with Sainz not being fast tracked forward, and sitting in behind Max on that last lap restart.

I've heard that Mercedes can't appeal to CAS as CAS only deal with doping violations; instead Mercedes will have to appeal to a panel appointed by the FIA. Given the FIA are the ones being appealed against, this is a huge flaw with the appeal process.

I can understand if Mercedes drop their appeal for this reason. Very few will view Verstappen as a world champion anyway, it's like when a boxer gets a gift of a decision.

Duty281 wrote:I've heard that Mercedes can't appeal to CAS as CAS only deal with doping violations; instead Mercedes will have to appeal to a panel appointed by the FIA. Given the FIA are the ones being appealed against, this is a huge flaw with the appeal process.

I can understand if Mercedes drop their appeal for this reason. Very few will view Verstappen as a world champion anyway, it's like when a boxer gets a gift of a decision.

You mean everyone outside Great Britain whom thinks Verstappen was a worthy champion?

According to reports coming out of Europe, 5 teams have tabled a ‘vote of no confidence’ in Michael Masi. The teams are anonymous at present but Mercedes, Red Bull and AlphaTauri are three names being suggested. Obviously both Red Bull teams always vote the same way.

FIA set to announce Peter Bayer as ‘executive director of F1’ in the coming days.
His positioning will be above that of Masi, Tombazis and Bauer. Basically the headmaster.

Verstappen is a well worthy champion over 22 races. Beyond that give it 5-10 years and only a minority will really care about the controversy like every other controversial finish in F1s history

GSC wrote:Verstappen is a well worthy champion over 22 races. Beyond that give it 5-10 years and only a minority will really care about the controversy like every other controversial finish in F1s history

I'd disagree on the first part and the second part is just nonsense. It matters and will continue to matter, you might wish to ignore it but many will not.

You're entitled to your opinion

I don't see how Verstappen can be a 'worthy champion' when the rules have to be broken in order for Verstappen to become a champion (and said rule breach was admitted by the stewards).

It certainly won't be forgotten in 5-10 years either, in the same way that Schumacher/Hill is still remembered and talked about (though this current issue is actually more controversial).

Because you're talking about who deserved to win a race not a championship. If you're saying who deserved to win a championship you have to consider the entire thing. And there are a multitude of controversial moments that have shaped this championship in both directions, including strange stewarding. You want to boil it down to one incident and gripe about it for 20 years be my guest.

If you're saying the driver who won the most races, had the most poles and led over half the laps wasn't a worthy winner of the championship that just makes you bitter I'm afraid. (To my mind, either was well worthy, Verstappen was imperious and Hamilton relentless).

Well worthy?

That one incident does tend to matter more than all the others when it happened on the final lap of the season, it has nothing to do with bitterness but safeguarding the legitimacy of sport.

Hamilton doesn't take out Verstappen at Silverstone and Verstappen is champion regardless of what happens on the last lap

Verstappen doesn't take out Hamilton at Monza and Hamilton is champion regardless of what happens on the last lap.

You can't just pretend that was the only thing that happened in the entire championship.

If we can all agree on something then maybe it is this - Michael Masi's intervention to over-rule normal procedure (FIA argue this was an exceptional procedure that was allowed) was controversial and that in any other race of the season this race would have ended under a safety car.

As this race proceeded even Christian Horner accepted defeat saying they would need a miracle for Verstappen to win the title. However, what happened in the end wasn't a "miracle" - it was a Michael Masi intervention that appeared to be contrived and against all normal interpretation of the rule book. My view is that this race should have ended under a safety car and I think everybody would have accepted that.

GSC wrote:Because you're talking about who deserved to win a race not a championship. If you're saying who deserved to win a championship you have to consider the entire thing. And there are a multitude of controversial moments that have shaped this championship in both directions, including strange stewarding. You want to boil it down to one incident and gripe about it for 20 years be my guest.

If you're saying the driver who won the most races, had the most poles and led over half the laps wasn't a worthy winner of the championship that just makes you bitter I'm afraid. (To my mind, either was well worthy, Verstappen was imperious and Hamilton relentless).

Yeah I totally agree, both would've been well well worthy champions - not entirely sure how that is wrong to say that

It won't be a forgotten incident, but in the same way Senna/Prost, Schumacher/Hill are hardly massive stains on careers in the general F1 eye, this will be similar in 10/20 odd years time.

Not surprised Mercedes are likely to drop the appeal - Hamilton rightly will want to win his 8th on the track, rather than in the courtroom. I'd certainly be backing him to come back with fury next season, rather than retire too
I'd argue his run post summer break was potentially the best he's driven in the last 5/6 years?

It doesn't quite work like that and you know it, the final incident is always more important than anything that preceded it. The butterfly effect applies to Silverstone and Monza, it does not to Abu Dhabi.

I think Silverstone and Monza can be put on the back burner. Potentially both cancel each other out. Note I said ‘potentially’.
The biggest issue was when a neutral, Bottas, caused carnage at Budapest and wiped out a quarter of the grid. Hamilton would’ve won that day but Verstappen would’ve been second.
So the subsequent issues wouldn’t have to occurred.

Second paragraph is what I actually meant

The big difference here compared to elsewhere is that this was not a disputed judgement of a racing incident, it was rather an extraordinary intervention by the race director to go against all normal interpretation of the rule book to contrive something for the last lap of the last race of the season.

Yeah I side with Olly and GSC on this. I don't think we can call Verstappen an unworthy champion just because of the way he ultimately won the title. Are we saying that if Hamilton's engine had failed, or he'd been Verstappen'ed (Jos) by a back-marker, that would suddenly have made Verstappen a worthy champion (and conversely meant that Hamilton would no longer have been worthy). A bit silly IMO.

I don't think it will be forgotten that easily either, mind. Schumi/Hill and Prost/Senna are still remembered, and I suspect if Hamilton hadn't gotten past Glock in 2008 some of the stewarding from that season would be too (particularly fond of the Japan race in that regard). It will fade of course to some extent, as these things do. If Verstappen goes on to win more championships, and honestly there's no reason why he shouldn't, I suspect this will eventually become more of a footnote. If it ends up being his only championship, maybe it'll be remembered more clearly?

GSC wrote:Because you're talking about who deserved to win a race not a championship. If you're saying who deserved to win a championship you have to consider the entire thing. And there are a multitude of controversial moments that have shaped this championship in both directions, including strange stewarding. You want to boil it down to one incident and gripe about it for 20 years be my guest.

If you're saying the driver who won the most races, had the most poles and led over half the laps wasn't a worthy winner of the championship that just makes you bitter I'm afraid. (To my mind, either was well worthy, Verstappen was imperious and Hamilton relentless).

It does, ultimately, boil down to one incident because it is that one incident that decided the championship.

If the rules are followed then Hamilton is the champion. That is indisputable.

The rules have been broken and that is the most crucial thing that has caused Verstappen to be champion. That is not worthy, in my view.

Verstappen also did not win more races this season than Hamilton, they won 9 each, except Hamilton was cheated out of winning the last race.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Are we saying that if Hamilton's engine had failed, or he'd been Verstappen'ed (Jos) by a back-marker, that would suddenly have made Verstappen a worthy champion (and conversely meant that Hamilton would no longer have been worthy). A bit silly IMO.

Those would be racing incidents, however, and entirely within the rules of the sport, and yes Verstappen would be a worthy winner in those circumstances, even if the manner of defeat would seem as cruel to Hamilton as a football team losing by a deflected goal or a cricket team losing on a boundary count.

I think that's a distinction without a difference TBH.

I also disagree with "If the rules are followed then Hamilton is the champion.", which can't be right. "If the rules are followed the overwhelmingly likely outcome is that Hamilton would be champion." is probably right, but there is a chance, however vanishingly small, that Hamilton could have crashed out from behind the SC.

Finally, I'm not sure I agree with "that is the most crucial thing that has caused Verstappen to be champion." (emphasis mine), which seems to me to be very similar to what Masi was doing on Sunday: singling out something for special treatment because it's right at the end of the season.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think that's a distinction without a difference TBH.

I also disagree with "If the rules are followed then Hamilton is the champion.", which can't be right. "If the rules are followed the overwhelmingly likely outcome is that Hamilton would be champion." is probably right, but there is a chance, however vanishingly small, that Hamilton could have crashed out from behind the SC.

Finally, I'm not sure I agree with "that is the most crucial thing that has caused Verstappen to be champion." (emphasis mine), which seems to me to be very similar to what Masi was doing on Sunday: singling out something for special treatment because it's right at the end of the season.

There is a difference though. One is where the rules are broken, the other is just an outcome that may seem harsh and unfair but is legal. If there were one racing lap allowed, and none of the lapped cars were allowed to pass, and Verstappen passed those five cars and Hamilton to win the WDC, then it is the latter and Verstappen would be a worthy champion, no matter how cruel it seems to Hamilton. But what actually happened is the former which is a terrible sporting injustice.

The chance of Hamilton not being champion where the rules are followed is unreasonably small and not worth considering.

It is the most crucial thing because, as Soul alluded to, there is no butterfly effect from this race. If it had happened  in race eight of the season then it would have still been terribly unjust, but Hamilton would have had a chance to recover. There was no chance for him to recover from this. They were level after 21 races, the 22nd race was decided by a break of the rules.

Whether someone is a "worthy" champion is subject to dispute and interpretation. What is not subject to dispute is Michael Masi's decision to pull something out of his nether regions.

GSC wrote:Well we managed to get "woke" into this somehow .

Not sure how much appetite there really is for a sustained court case to be honest. We know Lewis didn't want it in 2007 and I doubt he wants to be seen to be trying to break Schumis record in a courtroom. As you say, the parent company is going to be sensitive to any PR that they could pick up from going that route.

Horner got told to fly back to HQ yesterday and skip the various post season tests to spearhead RBs response. Mateschitz isn't gonna let this go, so it would be Mercedes opposed by two legal teams ultimately

I agree.

Hamilton seems to have accepted it better than Mercedes and the matter should be closed now. Hamilton is smart enough to realise he'll gain much angst if this is over-turned now even though this appeal is not of his making. Mercedes should accept the decision (however wrong it is) and move towards rule clarification and try to make them set in stone and not left open to the whims of Michael Masi. I am sure the loss will leave Hamilton ravenous for revenge next season and he'll have a cracking chance of getting it and an even better one if Mercedes can start concentrating on next year's car and forget the calamitous end to 2021. The only losers from 2021 are the FIA.

Jeff Navarro wrote:FIA set to announce Peter Bayer as ‘executive director of F1’ in the coming days.
His positioning will be above that of Masi, Tombazis and Bauer. Basically the headmaster.

Brawn also said the teams to race director radio channel will be gone from next season which seems eminently sensible. Don't think it will be Masi, at this point it feels like a fresh face is best for all concerned but whoever it is will be less on an island next year

Interestingly BWT will end association with Aston Martin and will join up with Alpine for 2022.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

GSC wrote:Well we managed to get "woke" into this somehow .

Not sure how much appetite there really is for a sustained court case to be honest. We know Lewis didn't want it in 2007 and I doubt he wants to be seen to be trying to break Schumis record in a courtroom. As you say, the parent company is going to be sensitive to any PR that they could pick up from going that route.

Horner got told to fly back to HQ yesterday and skip the various post season tests to spearhead RBs response. Mateschitz isn't gonna let this go, so it would be Mercedes opposed by two legal teams ultimately

I agree.

Hamilton seems to have accepted it better than Mercedes and the matter should be closed now. Hamilton is smart enough to realise he'll gain much angst if this is over-turned now even though this appeal is not of his making. Mercedes should accept the decision (however wrong it is) and move towards rule clarification and try to make them set in stone and not left open to the whims of Michael Masi. I am sure the loss will leave Hamilton ravenous for revenge next season and he'll have a cracking chance of getting it and an even better one if Mercedes can start concentrating on next year's car and forget the calamitous end to 2021. The only losers from 2021 are the FIA.

The problem Craig is that the rules Masi broke are entirely clear. There’s absolutely no credible way to interpret them in a way that permits him to do what he did and the FIA’s attempt to do so when Mercedes protested was both troubling and risible. Without an acknowledgement by the FIA that they got this badly wrong, it basically means that the teams can’t rely any more on the rules being followed correctly.

The only people who would feel angst if Mercedes do take their challenge to an obviously wrong decision further would not be worth considering. The important thing is to get the right outcome and ensure this doesn’t happen again.

GSC wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:FIA set to announce Peter Bayer as ‘executive director of F1’ in the coming days.
His positioning will be above that of Masi, Tombazis and Bauer. Basically the headmaster.

Brawn also said the teams to race director radio channel will be gone from next season which seems eminently sensible. Don't think it will be Masi, at this point it feels like a fresh face is best for all concerned but whoever it is will be less on an island next year

Sensible decisions all round - I'm sure Toto/Horner weren't the only ones using that channel for their own benefit (probably the only ones we hear for entertainment purposes), but it seems just an unnecessary stress to place on someone trying to sort out directing a race.

Also glad they're adding more people to the "team" so it isn't just reliant on one, clearly incompetent, person running it all.