Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[VTR]

First topic message reminder :

Don't know anything about that number 9 and 10, are they decent hitters that just happen to be low in the order, or were England again awarding outlier performances to the opposition?

[Duty281]

That didn't take long. 64 run lead.

England are going to need to bat all day to get just a 150-200 run lead. Will they have the application to do so?

[king_carlos]

Oh the memories of all those glorious tours when England thrashed the West indies with broanderson leading the attack.

Anderson- 36 wickets @ 24.8
Broad- 26 wickets @ 31.1

Suggests to me that the pair perform quite well in the Caribbean and it's failing elsewhere that have been letting the team down.

Since that last tour Broad has a strike rate of around 70 overseas (and averaged 40 in 2021) whilst Jimmy's second innings record since 2019 is averaging 45 with a strike rate of 110. Whilst Anderson and Broad are still fantastic bowlers I think it's important to note that there are clear signs of them declining from their respective peaks.

That second innings trend for Jimmy in particular isn't a small sample size anymore. Whilst lethal on his day and frugal when it isn't having an opening bowler with a SR of 110 in the second innings is a very difficult issue to overcome.

I'd have brought Broad here as I see no point in looking at others overseas seamers if they are Woakes or Overton. I'd agree with the others that I struggle to see how present day Jimmy and Broad would have bundled the Windies on this pudding though.

Once again the batters squandered a chance to go big, this time on a great batting track.

[king_carlos]

That didn't take long. 64 run lead.

England are going to need to bat all day to get just a 150-200 run lead. Will they have the application to do so?

If they can't on here then I don't see where they can!

It's a good Windies seam attack but with Alzarri Joseph tending to struggle a bit as he gets into latter spells it should be very right-arm medium-fast on a flat track (same as England without Wood...) if they can get through the new ball.

Queue Root out there in the 4th over.

[Duty281]

Another howler of a decision.

When does cricket return to its usual umpiring policy? West Indian umpiring is no good.

[Soul Requiem]

Since that last tour Broad has a strike rate of around 70 overseas (and averaged 40 in 2021) whilst Jimmy's second innings record since 2019 is averaging 45 with a strike rate of 110. Whilst Anderson and Broad are still fantastic bowlers I think it's important to note that there are clear signs of them declining from their respective peaks.

That second innings trend for Jimmy in particular isn't a small sample size anymore. Whilst lethal on his day and frugal when it isn't having an opening bowler with a SR of 110 in the second innings is a very difficult issue to overcome.

I'd have brought Broad here as I see no point in looking at others overseas seamers if they are Woakes or Overton. I'd agree with the others that I struggle to see how present day Jimmy and Broad would have bundled the Windies on this pudding though.

Once again the batters squandered a chance to go big, this time on a great batting track.

I don't think anyone is suggesting Anderson and Broad would have bundled the Windies out but you give yourself a better chance of doing that with at least one of them in the side instead of Woakes or Overton.

Anderson's second innings issue are well documented and valid but they do ignore how potent he still is in the first innings. His overall SR last year was 61.5 which is still pretty decent, in an ideal world we'd have a new shiny pace bowler who can do the business but we don't.

There is zero justification for selecting Woakes over Broad or Anderson as bowlers overseas, his batting isn't good enough to overcome his complete ineptitude bowling outside England.

[Gooseberry]

There's zero justification in still missing the point but you'll still insist in doing it.

[Gooseberry]

Anyway great start to the day with Lees improving his test average

[Soul Requiem]

There's zero justification in still missing the point but you'll still insist in doing it.

You'll have to explain what point i'm missing then.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I have to go with SR here, there's zero justification in this approach when you use Woakes, Wood, Overton.

Whilst they may not have seen a Brett Lee to My Gran change in skill, incremental improvements are important, sport is often won on margins. And the pressure it added to the bowlers isn't helpful.

You have to have something coming through and demanding the chance. Robinson might, but Overton, Woakes and Wood (due more to frailty than form) don't.

[Gooseberry]

Bother to go and read the interviews with Strauss etc. and think about the reason why Robinson isnt bowling. And beyond that look at the state of things thats led to the best option England have under 30 is Overton. Its beyond tiresome to go over and over it again, and whether Anderson and Broad had played or not the problem still remains. The result of this test isnt the issue, its a symptom of fundamentals problems with English cricket that have been swept under the carpet for way too long.


As per Lees opening the batting its exactly the fact that the cupboard is so bear that is what needs addressing. The whole "would Broad and Anderson have done better" argument is moot to that. Playing them here wouldn't fix the talent pipeline, it would help mask the problem and potentially block others. Not to mention they increasingly need hiding in the field, are as much as an injury risk as Wood (and are we saying that they wouldve gone into this match without a quick at all if Broad and Anderson were available? Highly unlikely and open to equal criticism had they) . Thats before getting onto he impact they are having on the team ethic, needing to hide them in the field, and lengthening the tail. But again ....not really relevant to the bigger picture and longer term project ....developing players capable of playing test cricket to a high standard who will be around for more than the next series or two.

The selection of the squad is not the problem.

[Duty281]

Bother to go and read the interviews with Strauss etc. and think about the reason why Robinson isnt bowling. And beyond that look at the state of things thats led to the best option England have under 30 is Overton. Its beyond tiresome to go over and over it again, and whether Anderson and Broad had played or not the problem still remains. The result of this test isnt the issue, its a symptom of fundamentals problems with English cricket that have been swept under the carpet for way too long.  


As per Lees opening the batting its exactly the fact that the cupboard is so bear that is what needs addressing. The whole "would Broad and Anderson have done better" argument is moot to that. Playing them here wouldn't fix the talent pipeline, it would help mask the problem and potentially block others. Not to mention they increasingly need hiding in the field, are as much as an injury risk as Wood (and are we saying that they wouldve gone into this match without a quick at all if Broad and Anderson were available? Highly unlikely and open to equal criticism had they) . Thats before getting onto he impact they are having on the team ethic, needing to hide them in the field, and lengthening the tail. But again ....not really relevant to the bigger picture and longer term project ....developing players capable of playing test cricket to a high standard who will be around for more than the next series or two.

The selection of the squad is not the problem.

Bizarre post. There is no longer term project going on here. This isn't a scenario where Harmison and Hoggard were dropped for two highly promising seamers; Anderson and Broad have been dropped for no reason.

No one is denying English cricket has a problem, but dropping Anderson and Broad is doing nothing to address that problem. It's just a bad decision which has hindered England's chances on this tour. I don't think Anderson or Broad have a problem with team ethic either, and they're certainly more reliable fitness wise than Wood.

[Soul Requiem]

Bother to go and read the interviews with Strauss etc. and think about the reason why Robinson isnt bowling. And beyond that look at the state of things thats led to the best option England have under 30 is Overton. Its beyond tiresome to go over and over it again, and whether Anderson and Broad had played or not the problem still remains. The result of this test isnt the issue, its a symptom of fundamentals problems with English cricket that have been swept under the carpet for way too long.  


As per Lees opening the batting its exactly the fact that the cupboard is so bear that is what needs addressing. The whole "would Broad and Anderson have done better" argument is moot to that. Playing them here wouldn't fix the talent pipeline, it would help mask the problem and potentially block others. Not to mention they increasingly need hiding in the field, are as much as an injury risk as Wood (and are we saying that they wouldve gone into this match without a quick at all if Broad and Anderson were available? Highly unlikely and open to equal criticism had they) . Thats before getting onto he impact they are having on the team ethic, needing to hide them in the field, and lengthening the tail. But again ....not really relevant to the bigger picture and longer term project ....developing players capable of playing test cricket to a high standard who will be around for more than the next series or two.

The selection of the squad is not the problem.

None of that has anything to do with selecting Overton and Woakes over Broad and Anderson. If they'd gone for Mahmood or another younger seamer then it might have some semblance of relevance but they haven't done that. It's a halfway house selection that is neither picking the best available players nor is it selecting players with one ye on the future.

The selection of the squad is part of the problem when it comes THIS SERIES, not everything is about looking two years ahead.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Bother to go and read the interviews with Strauss etc. and think about the reason why Robinson isnt bowling. And beyond that look at the state of things thats led to the best option England have under 30 is Overton. Its beyond tiresome to go over and over it again, and whether Anderson and Broad had played or not the problem still remains. The result of this test isnt the issue, its a symptom of fundamentals problems with English cricket that have been swept under the carpet for way too long.  


As per Lees opening the batting its exactly the fact that the cupboard is so bear that is what needs addressing. The whole "would Broad and Anderson have done better" argument is moot to that. Playing them here wouldn't fix the talent pipeline, it would help mask the problem and potentially block others. Not to mention they increasingly need hiding in the field, are as much as an injury risk as Wood (and are we saying that they wouldve gone into this match without a quick at all if Broad and Anderson were available? Highly unlikely and open to equal criticism had they) . Thats before getting onto he impact they are having on the team ethic, needing to hide them in the field, and lengthening the tail. But again ....not really relevant to the bigger picture and longer term project ....developing players capable of playing test cricket to a high standard who will be around for more than the next series or two.

The selection of the squad is not the problem.

Most of this seems almost irrelevant to me. When the reason to drop Broad and Anderson isn't ability - and it clearly isn't - then we go with the development line.

The development of Woakes and Overton (the point I was making about Robinson was that he was one you could maybe excuse it for, nothing about why he isn't playing, merely an example that actually supported you...) isn't what they're doing, I hope, because it's pointless.

Win cricket matches, we havent done that for a while so that's important. Short term and long term, by the way. We have good young players who can't get any sort of comfort in this side cos it is struggling.

Development also works better as a process, not a plunge. Work alongside two of the greatest ever and let them handle the pressure first? Probably a good idea.

Unfortunately, it will not be a moot point until proven otherwise. Right now, it's clearly relevant. It will remain relevant. That's enough aspect of the foolishness of this. Heaps more pressure on. As has been said, this is a discussion thread where this series is being discussed. Exclusion of Broad and Anderson is a huge facet.

I also think it's appalling long term management too, and seems to be the strategy of a management team who hear about what others have done but don't understand it. It's done across all sports, but it isn't done randomly. This is the long term idea being done wrong, so it seems.

[Duty281]

The pitch is so flat that an England opener has made three figures.

[Soul Requiem]

This appears to be a real dog of a pitch, this match combined with the Pakistan test is terrible for spectators. Pitches seem to be either unplayable like in India last year or dead, there needs to be a contest between bat and ball.

[king_carlos]

It's a terrible pitch and a pretty poor Test match all round that's for sure.

[Duty281]

Yes, another poor test match.

Disappointingly, the Pakistan pitch in the recent test was only graded 'below average', not 'poor' or 'unfit'. When only 14 wickets fall in 380 overs, I think it's a bit worse than below average!

[Soul Requiem]

The ICC do need to be harsher with their pitch assessments that's for sure. I've been harsh on Overton and Woakes but the pitch has offered them nothing.

[king_carlos]

Yes, another poor test match.

Disappointingly, the Pakistan pitch in the recent test was only graded 'below average', not 'poor' or 'unfit'. When only 14 wickets fall in 380 overs, I think it's a bit worse than below average!

That was very disappointing. Give me a snake pit or Bunsen any day over a feather bed. Those wickets are very frustrating and pish in their own way but at least you get engrossing cricket even if it can be a lottery and brief.

Test cricket can't thrive without good pitches.

[VTR]

Stat of the day: Zak Crawley now has half the number of Test centuries and averages a similar amount to his grandfather John

[guildfordbat]

Crawley being quoted on the BBC site as saying if we have a good morning, we can declare and have 70 to 75 overs at them. That's down to 65 to 70 from him in today's Telegraph.

Whatever, I just don't see it. Dog of a pitch, Wood's been crocked, others had to bowl his overs. Got of out jail from where we were at the end of day 3 and would expect us to settle for that now. Bat until 70 minutes before the scheduled close, declare, shake hands on the draw, have a shower and a beer and head off for T2, no?

[guildfordbat]

Just to add - I see the irony with what I've said above and to VTR in the Rest of the World thread about not giving VFM to the paying public. However, that's mainly again down to a pitch being unfit for Test cricket.

[VTR]

Agree, I'd almost be looking to rest the bowlers ready for the second Test, rather than subject them to even 60 overs on this. I also very much doubt England can put on a hundred in the first session, which is around what they would need to be secure for an all out attack

[king_carlos]

I agree too. It's boring but on this sort of pitch England should just look to bat the day if possible. Build some confidence, ideally get some runs into Lawrence and/or Stokes, put overs into the Windies bowlers legs.

[Duty281]

I would hope Root had learnt from Headingley 2017 and not to indulge in any silly declarations.

Keep the West Indies in the field for six hours, wear them down ahead of the second. No fanciful declarations.

[JDizzle]

Only 6 boundaries but a 100 brought up striking at 53 still. Vintage Root. Fill your boots now Joe.

[Duty281]

Well never mind the declaration, England six down. Windies win possible if they get these last  four in the next ten overs?

[Duty281]

Interesting declaration. Very sporting. Will the West Indies be tempted?

[sirfredperry]

Utter lunacy by Root to declare with England's bowling at its weakest for years.

I've still not forgiven Root for his declaration at Headingley against the Windies a few years back.

Why give the Windies a sniff when England are so short of confidence. Just bat it out for a boring draw.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I agree with the prevailing thought that batting out the day (or as much of as possible) would’ve been smart today - but England seemingly had other plans. Very risky, but maybe with WI’s short order they can make some headway?

[sirfredperry]

What makes this declaration even more crazy is that Wood may not bowl.

Root is a great batsman but sometimes as a captain he is like a great big kid.

[JDizzle]

I’d have just batted on - but if they let the Windies get 280 in 70 overs on a slow pitch like this, even down Wood, then something has gone badly wrong!

[guildfordbat]

What makes this declaration even more crazy is that Wood may not bowl.

Root is a great batsman but sometimes as a captain he is like a great big kid.

Wood will not bowl today per cricinfo. He experienced ''acute pain'' after sending down about 6 balls in the nets before play.

And now we probably run the risk of further knackering Stokes by getting him to bowl some of Wood's overs.

I wonder how much of all this is down to Collingwood rather than Root. As interim head coach, Collingwood seems in a comfortable place gambling on our team and I don't like that. Lose this Test - or just muck up the preparations for T2 - and he'll most likely end up going back to a support role, in other words not really any worse off. Win this Test and he'll have beaten the odds and be in line to get the job on a permanent basis.

[guildfordbat]

Long, long way to go and a lot could happen but MotM tonight could be interesting.
Bairstow for me atm.

[guildfordbat]

Crawley should have taken that chance off Campbell. Poor shot and a bad drop. Leach hasn't had much luck so far this Test.

[JDizzle]

65/3 at tea. Surely there is no chance…

[guildfordbat]

65/3 at tea. One for Stokes and two for Leach as England chip away. The last - Brooks falling to a sharp low catch by Crawley off Leach on the stroke of the interval - will keep England more than interested.

Shortly before that wicket, England blatantly squandered a review. Lbw shout off Leach but clearly going down leg. Poor from Foakes who was heading that way and should have asserted himself. Not just glovework needed in this era from a Test keeper but also an appreciation of the review system and the self confidence to call it.

A maximum of 38 overs left.

[JDizzle]

That shot from Blackwood is an absolute disgrace.

[king_carlos]

Need Bonner out soon and it could get interesting...

[JDizzle]

65/3 at tea. One for Stokes and two for Leach as England chip away. The last - Brooks falling to a sharp low catch by Crawley off Leach on the stroke of the interval - will keep England more than interested.

Shortly before that wicket, England blatantly squandered a review. Lbw shout off Leach but clearly going down leg. Poor from Foakes who was heading that way and should have asserted himself. Not just glovework needed in this era from a Test keeper but also an appreciation of the review system and the self confidence to call it.

A maximum of 38 overs left.

That review has cost England a wicket. As they definitely would have reviewed that decision on Holder if they had two reviews rather than one.

[guildfordbat]

65/3 at tea. One for Stokes and two for Leach as England chip away. The last - Brooks falling to a sharp low catch by Crawley off Leach on the stroke of the interval - will keep England more than interested.

Shortly before that wicket, England blatantly squandered a review. Lbw shout off Leach but clearly going down leg. Poor from Foakes who was heading that way and should have asserted himself. Not just glovework needed in this era from a Test keeper but also an appreciation of the review system and the self confidence to call it.

A maximum of 38 overs left.

That review has cost England a wicket. As they definitely would have reviewed that decision on Holder if they had two reviews rather than one.

JD - you beat me to the post.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

And now they review one that clearly isn’t out

Foakes surely must’ve known that one hadn’t been hit?

[guildfordbat]

And now they review one that clearly isn’t out

Foakes surely must’ve known that one hadn’t been hit?

And again.

[guildfordbat]

Harmison refers to Stokes bowling at this stage as ''madness''.
Agree.

[Duty281]

It's been a pointless and futile labour for England. Ten wickets in seventy overs was always a miniscule chance - West Indies probably had a greater chance of knocking off the runs than England did of bowling them out.

Lots of selection problems for the second test - Wood injured, Stokes carrying a knock, Robinson out of contention, Woakes and Overton both definitely not looking the part...but only Mahmood and Fisher available to come in.

[guildfordbat]

It's been a pointless and futile labour for England. Ten wickets in seventy overs was always a miniscule chance - West Indies probably had a greater chance of knocking off the runs than England did of bowling them out.

Lots of selection problems for the second test - Wood injured, Stokes carrying a knock, Robinson out of contention, Woakes and Overton both definitely not looking the part...but only Mahmood and Fisher available to come in.

Pretty much go along with that.

286 off 71 overs on that track always seemed too much for the Windies imo although, I guess, if the openers had lasted longer and Blackwood had a brain cell, they might have been able to give it a go.

That said, I agree strongly with your main point, Duty, that it was always most likely to be a futile hunt for 10 wickets with an increased risk of injuring Stokes further and knackering all the bowlers - again having to make up Wood's overs - for T2 coming up Wednesday.

[guildfordbat]

Long, long way to go and a lot could happen but MotM tonight could be interesting.
Bairstow for me atm.

Bonner gets it. Not surprised although I would still have stuck with Bairstow. Mighty close though in my book. Just the circumstances in which Bairstow first went out to bat tipping it for me.

[king_carlos]

D4 and D5 were better than the first three at least.

Good to see three England batters ton up in one Test even if it was a featherbed.

Good to see Leach bowl well on an unhelpful track too. The Windies are right-hand bat heavy (only one leftie in the top 7 and two in the whole XI) so suit Leach's strengths but he still did his role well.

I'd definitely get Mahmood involved for T2. If Wood is out then Mahmood for Wood could be an only change and that's somewhat dispiriting after Woakes and Overton looked so toothless. I honestly know almost nothing of Fisher. On paper he sounds worryingly similar, frankly.

With Robinson already injured and Wood now aggravating this elbow issue I'd guess we will soon get to find out who the seamers on the reserves list are. Brydon Carse has been looked at before and is meant to have something about him but he too is injured - rumours he would have made the tour if fit.

[Jetty]

D4 and D5 were better than the first three at least.

Good to see three England batters ton up in one Test even if it was a featherbed.

Good to see Leach bowl well on an unhelpful track too. The Windies are right-hand bat heavy (only one leftie in the top 7 and two in the whole XI) so suit Leach's strengths but he still did his role well.

I'd definitely get Mahmood involved for T2. If Wood is out then Mahmood for Wood could be an only change and that's somewhat dispiriting after Woakes and Overton looked so toothless. I honestly know almost nothing of Fisher. On paper he sounds worryingly similar, frankly.

With Robinson already injured and Wood now aggravating this elbow issue I'd guess we will soon get to find out who the seamers on the reserves list are. Brydon Carse has been looked at before and is meant to have something about him but he too is injured - rumours he would have made the tour if fit.

Robinson has been bowling for the last two days and seems ok so I guess he will come back. If Wood is out of the series then Liam Norwell will be called up. I think it's going to be Woakes, Robinson, Overton and Stokes. With Wood out you would think Mahmood with his 'pace' would be called up.

[VTR]

I'm not so sure about that declaration being a waste of time in the end. If they'd not have burned reviews on stupid things, and had reviewed the Holder lbw, they'd have had around 30 overs (I think?) to take the remaining 5 wickets. Think that would have been a decent opening and chance to win

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