Premiership Round 17

Round 17? I didn't know they could count that high

Hoping the weather does not make a mess of these fixtures

Friday 18/2 19:45
Worcester Warriors v Bristol

Saturday 19/2 all 15:00
Bath v Leicester Tigers
Harlequins v Wasps
London Irish v Saracens
Northampton Saints v Sale

Sunday 20/2 15:00
Newcastle Falcons v Exeter Chiefs

Lots of injuries for both sides but the loss of both Hill and Hatherall for Wuss is probably going to remove any chance of them stopping the Bristol momentum and feeding that talented backline good ball. Could be a tough night for Worcester. Young Finn Smith will have to show up strong and control the game in iffy conditions of they are to win.

WASPS: 15 Jacob Umaga, 14 Paolo Odogwu, 13 Sam Spink, 12 Ryan Mills, 11 Josh Bassett; 10 Charlie Atkinson, 9 Dan Robson (c); 1 Tom West, 2 Tom Cruse, 3 Biyi Alo, 4 James Gaskell, 5 Elliott Stooke, 6 Vaea Fifita, 7 Ben Morris, 8 Tom Willis

Replacements: 16 Gabriel Oghre, 17 Robin Hislop, 18 Jeffery Toomaga-Allen, 19 Nizaam Carr, 20 Jack Willis, 21 Will Porter, 22 Jimmy Gopperth, 23 Marcus Watson (64)



Harlequins Starting XV

1. Joe Marler
2. Jack Walker
3. Will Collier
4. Matt Symons
5. Hugh Tizard
6. Stephan Lewies (c)
7. Luke Wallace
8. Archie White
9. Danny Care
10. Will Edwards
11. Cadan Murley
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Huw Jones
14. Oscar Beard
15. Tyrone Green

Impact Players
16. Sam Riley
17. Simon Kerrod
18. Wilco Louw
19. Tom Lawday
20. James Chisholm
21. Lewis Gjaltema
22. Tommy Allan
23. Louis Lynagh

Teams for Falcons v Exeter.....

15 Mike Brown,
14 Tom Penny,
13 George Wacokecoke,
12 Matias Orlando,
11 Nathan Earle,
10 Will Haydon-Wood,
9 Cameron Nordli-Kelemeti;

1 Adam Brocklebank,
2 George McGuigan,
3 Trevor Davison,
4 Greg Peterson,
5 Sean Robinson,
6 Will Welch (captain),
7 Connor Collett,
8 Callum Chick.

Replacements: 16 Jamie Blamire, 17 Conrad Cade, 18 Mark Tampin, 19 Rob Farrar, 20 Josh Basham, 21 Joel Hodgson, 22 Luther Burrell, 23 Adam Radwan.

Exeter Chiefs:
15 Josh Hodge,
14 Olly Woodburn,
13 Ian Whitten,
12 Tom Hendrickson,
11 Tom O’Flaherty,
10 Joe Simmonds (captain),
9 Sam Maunder;

1 Alec Hepburn,
2 Jack Innard,
3 Patrick Schickerling,
4 Jannes Kirsten,
5 Dafydd Jenkins,
6 Sam Skinner,
7 Don Armand,
8 Richard Capstick.

Replacements: 16 Jack Yeandle, 17 Billy Keast, 18 Marcus Street, 19 Lewis Pearson, 20 Santiago Grondona, 21 Jack Maunder, 22 Harvey Skinner, 23 Facundo Cordero.

Wow Jack Willis on the bench for Wasps....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow Jack Willis on the bench for Wasps....

Good to see him back.

Bath tiggers

Bath: De Glanville, Butt, Joseph, Ojomoh, Muir; Bailey, B Spencer; Morozov, Du Toit, Rae, Richards, McNally (capt), Faletau, Coetzee, Hughes.

Replacements: Doughty, Cordwell, Verden, Bayliss, De Carpentier, Simpson, Clark, Cipriani.

Leicester: Hegarty, Potter, Porter, Kelly, Nadolo; Burns, Wigglesworth (capt); van Wyk, Montoya, Heyes, Wells, Snyman, Martin, Reffell, Wiese.

Replacements: Clare, Whitcombe, Hurd, Green, Leibenberg, van Poortvliet, Scott, Ashton.

LI- Sarries

Isiekwe playing - I wonder if that suggests changes for next week

London Irish: Stokes; Rowe, Rona, van Rensburg, Hassell-Collins; Jackson, Phipps (c); Goodrick-Clarke, Creevy, Van der Merwe; Simmons, Coleman, Cracknell, Gonzalez; O'Brien

Replacements: Cornish, Gigena, Hoskins, Nott, Tuisue, White, Hepetema, Cinti

Saracens: Goode; Segun, Lozowski, Morris, Lewington; Manu Vunipola, Van Zyle; Mako Vunipola (c), Woolstencroft, Koch; Isiekwe, Swinson, McFarland, Earl; B Vunipola

Replacements: Pifeleti, Mawi, Wainwright, Christie, Wray, De Haas, Tompkins, Maitland

Saints - Sale

Northampton: Hutchinson, Sleightholme, Proctor, Dingwall (c), Skosan, Furbank, Mitchell; Iyogun, Matavesi, Painter, Ribbans, Nansen, Wilkins, Harrison, Augustus.

Replacements: Haywood, Waller, Hill, Ratuniyarawa, Coles, Lomani, J Grayson, Francis

Sale: S James, Roebuck, R du Preez, R Janse van Rensburg, Reed, MacGinty, Quirke; Harrison, Langdon, Oosthuizen, Wiese, JP du Preez, JL du Preez, Ross (c), D du Preez.

Replacements: Taylor, McIntyre, Jones, Barrow, Nield, de Klerk, Doherty, McGuigan.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lots of injuries for both sides but the loss of both Hill and Hatherall for Wuss is probably going to remove any chance of them stopping the Bristol momentum and feeding that talented backline good ball. Could be a tough night for Worcester. Young Finn Smith will have to show up strong and control the game in iffy conditions of they are to win.

Not going to script so far

lostinwales wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lots of injuries for both sides but the loss of both Hill and Hatherall for Wuss is probably going to remove any chance of them stopping the Bristol momentum and feeding that talented backline good ball. Could be a tough night for Worcester. Young Finn Smith will have to show up strong and control the game in iffy conditions of they are to win.

Not going to script so far

Bristol dropping the ball when a try looked almost certain on three occasions. That was pretty criminal.

Finn Smith was excellent. Tired a bit in the second half but in the first half he was exceptional and justified the build up before kick off. Worcester really should have left with the TBP but the injuries to Vailanu and Shillcock did hit them.

Would Dickson be a prem ref if he hadn't have been a player? Tackle called and he then let's Potter drive another 5 metres or so. Bizarre.

Those high ball challenges frustrate me. Muir is nowhere near it, if the player lands more dangerously it's probably a red not a yellow. That's reffing the outcome not the action though, which I don't particularly like.

Tigers playing well for the most part given the absentees.

Bath's backline is very dangerous and Tigers are giving them chances.

Tigers once again have started strongly and dropped off. It's been a regular feature for a couple of months now. Very frustrating. They need to wake up.

Important scrum penalty there to get Tigers the ball back. Francois van Wyk isn't the best scrummager IMO but I'd still expect Heyes and Montoya to put a lot of pressure on Morozov (a player I do rate) and du Toit.

Arghh, great line from Porter then no support and a knock on. Tigers aren't finishing their chances.

Dan Kelly is playing very well yet again. Now he's added improved defensive organisation and distribution to his already strong carrying, tackling and ruck work he's fast becoming the full package.

Ojomoh has had good moments in attack, I really like him as a 12, but he has had some dodgy moments defensively. That will improve with game time and the right coaching though. He has some enviable skills as a runner and distributor at 12.

Good first half. Bath putting up a better showing than I've seen from them in ages.

Yep, Bath naturally seeing improvement as players get back available.

Their backline is really dangerous, especially the 10-12-13 axis.

Hughes is having a good game to be fair given how off he's been for a long time. Getting released by Bristol maybe the kick he needed?

Not doing Bristol much good tho!

Another great carry from Hughes there. He looks fitter and with a point to prove. Will be interesting to see how he lasts the 80. Thus far he's been very good.

Tigers are going to need their bench to have a big impact at this rate. Liebenberg, JvP and Scott are all really good bench players. Despite his young age I already rate Whitcombe higher than van Wyk and would hope the young LH can have an impact.

I also feel Ashton could do well in this match. It's fairly open, Tigers have been producing chances but not quite finishing them. That's where Ashton thrives.

Wiese really is dumb.

Sadly, he is. To me that is equally dumb from both players though. Wiese has overrun it but Hughes doesn't need to make the hit either. A litany of stupidity.

It's so frustrating that Wiese makes these dumb mistakes as I think they are what will hold him back from making that step up to being a good international rather than an excellent club player.

JvP and Hanro on early. Great calls IMO. Tigers need Hanro's leadership in this game.

James Whitcombe could become a very good LH.

Games so much easier when your scrum is dominant.

That's much better. The bench impact Tigers needed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Games so much easier when your scrum is dominant.

Makes a big difference.

I don't think van Wyk is a terrible scrummager, he is really good around the park so a useful squad player. With Whitcombe's rise and Leatigaga being much stronger at LH than TH I'd say that van Wyk is definitely 4th choice LH on merit now.

Whitcombe has made a big impact.

Lol. Dickson has just said he's dived on it...but it's forward so if you think that's a pen then it's still a knock on and back to the first pen. Him and the tmo are iffy as hell.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Games so much easier when your scrum is dominant.

Makes a big difference.

I don't think van Wyk is a terrible scrummager, he is really good around the park so a useful squad player. With Whitcombe's rise and Leatigaga being much stronger at LH than TH I'd say that van Wyk is definitely 4th choice LH on merit now.

Whitcombe has made a big impact.

Him and van Poortvliet have had a huge impact.

I think Kelly has won the battle of the England 12 hopefuls....

Thought they've both looked good tbh. Can't see much either has done wrong.

Not for the first time Charlie Clare now having a positive impact in the set-piece when coming from the bench. He isn't a flashy player but having someone as solid as Clare at scrum and lineout to replace Montoya with less falloff than you might have at set-piece when subbing a player of his quality is so useful.

As I type that Tigers get turned over in a maul... 

I stand by my statement.

Great set of subs from Leicester. Every change they made improved them, and the exact opposite for Bath.

Tigers blew a load of chances to stretch the scoreline out there ...

Sounds like the officials have been having a mare in the Irish v Cheats match ...

What's happened like?

Well it's probably a bit one-eyed but forward passes from Sarries missed, whilst called against Irish when not forward. SOB binned for being offside when not. Coleman red card suspect. Irish called back when under the posts due to whistle being blown too early. That's just a sample and I have to say I haven't seen any of this myself.

Heaf wrote:Well it's probably a bit one-eyed but forward passes from Sarries missed, whilst called against Irish when not forward.  SOB binned for being offside when not.  Coleman red card suspect.  Irish called back when under the posts due to whistle being blown too early.  That's just a sample and I have to say I haven't seen any of this myself.

Who won?

Still beat them though

Not a great performance but got the job done. I feel I've typed/said that a lot recently as a Tigers fan.

We are developing a frustrating tendency to start strong then fall asleep for long periods and we are leaving points on the pitch.

If I had to predict our Premiership season being brutally honest at the minute I'd say that I think we will hold onto 1st or 2nd in the table leading to a home semi we should be able to win. I could then see us meeting either Sarries or Chiefs in the final and losing a game with a tight scoreline but one that we never really looked in control of as the lineout causes us trouble with retaining our own ball and conceding pens on the oppositions against international quality second rows.

I don't want to sound too negative either. The progress under Borthwick is startling, this is a fantastic squad with many young players that should only get better. I just have this unshakable feeling that it might be one season too early for us to win hard fought KO matches against sides experienced in those situations. We can be absolutely fantastic for periods but still go missing for others.

Another 5 pointer for Irish - think I'm dreaming this ...

By the way, don't ask me about the Saints match.

king_carlos wrote:Not a great performance but got the job done. I feel I've typed/said that a lot recently as a Tigers fan.

We are developing a frustrating tendency to start strong then fall asleep for long periods and we are leaving points on the pitch.

If I had to predict our Premiership season being brutally honest at the minute I'd say that I think we will hold onto 1st or 2nd in the table leading to a home semi we should be able to win. I could then see us meeting either Sarries or Chiefs in the final and losing a game with a tight scoreline but one that we never really looked in control of as the lineout causes us trouble with retaining our own ball and conceding pens on the oppositions against international quality second rows.

I don't want to sound too negative either. The progress under Borthwick is startling, this is a fantastic squad with many young players that should only get better. I just have this unshakable feeling that it might be one season too early for us to win hard fought KO matches against sides experienced in those situations. We can be absolutely fantastic for periods but still go missing for others.

I think once we get our internationals back, it will define our season.

We certainly aren't as strong as at the beginning of the season, but there has been far more rotation which is good.

Bit of a nervy game with the usual bizaar decisions you expect from Dickson. Not sure how Wells was pinged for rolling when the ball was out and ge hands been tackled.

Thought it should have been a pen try at the end too as a load of Bath players went in at the side as it was marching towards the line.

Still, a win is a win. Great to see Burns putting some performances together too.

Sarries losing is big for Tigers in terms of the table. 12 points up, but Sarries have a game in hand, as opposed to a potential 8 points up with Sarries having an extra game.

Gloucester (H), Sarries (A), LI (H), Chiefs (A), Quins (A), Bristol (H), Falcons (A), Wasps (H)

That's the Tigers run in for the Jeff. 3 really tough away games against Sarries, Chiefs and Quins.

Sarries will be the big one in terms of 1st place. It's a Six Nations rest weekend so they'll have Tompkins and likely Isiekwe back with England's expected second row returnees. Tigers should get Heyes back and I'd hope Chessum as well with all the locks returning. A huge game.

nathan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Not a great performance but got the job done. I feel I've typed/said that a lot recently as a Tigers fan.

We are developing a frustrating tendency to start strong then fall asleep for long periods and we are leaving points on the pitch.

If I had to predict our Premiership season being brutally honest at the minute I'd say that I think we will hold onto 1st or 2nd in the table leading to a home semi we should be able to win. I could then see us meeting either Sarries or Chiefs in the final and losing a game with a tight scoreline but one that we never really looked in control of as the lineout causes us trouble with retaining our own ball and conceding pens on the oppositions against international quality second rows.

I don't want to sound too negative either. The progress under Borthwick is startling, this is a fantastic squad with many young players that should only get better. I just have this unshakable feeling that it might be one season too early for us to win hard fought KO matches against sides experienced in those situations. We can be absolutely fantastic for periods but still go missing for others.

I think once we get our internationals back, it will define our season.

We certainly aren't as strong as at the beginning of the season, but there has been far more rotation which is good.

Bit of a nervy game with the usual bizaar decisions you expect from Dickson. Not sure how Wells was pinged for rolling when the ball was out and ge hands been tackled.

Thought it should have been a pen try at the end too as a load of Bath players went in at the side as it was marching towards the line.

Still, a win is a win. Great to see Burns putting some performances together too.

Agreed. Genge, Ford and Steward are big losses.

Marco van Staden missing with injury is big too. I really rate Reffell, his defensive output is fantastic but he doesn't offer the same ball in hand as MvS. Given this is I believe his 3rd concussion in a year he could feasibly be out for 3 months plus though. Worrying.

Moroni is another terrific player and nailed on starter injured. With Porter sliding into 13 brilliantly to complement Kelly and Scott we are well set to weather that absence though.

1.Genge 2.Montoya 3.Cole 4.Wells 5.Chessum 6.Liebenberg 7.van Staden 8.Wiese
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Nadolo 12.Kelly 13.Moroni 14.Potter 15.Steward

16.Clare 17.Leatigaga 18.Heyes 19.Martin 20.Reffell 21.JvP 22.Burns 23.Porter

I look at that and think, on our best form of the season that can win a final. Take out someone such as van Staden or an untimely injury to Nadolo, add in some recent inconsistency, I just have some creeping doubts about going all the way this year.

As said, whether we win a trophy or not the overall progress under Borthwick has been spectacular.

nathan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Not a great performance but got the job done. I feel I've typed/said that a lot recently as a Tigers fan.

We are developing a frustrating tendency to start strong then fall asleep for long periods and we are leaving points on the pitch.

If I had to predict our Premiership season being brutally honest at the minute I'd say that I think we will hold onto 1st or 2nd in the table leading to a home semi we should be able to win. I could then see us meeting either Sarries or Chiefs in the final and losing a game with a tight scoreline but one that we never really looked in control of as the lineout causes us trouble with retaining our own ball and conceding pens on the oppositions against international quality second rows.

I don't want to sound too negative either. The progress under Borthwick is startling, this is a fantastic squad with many young players that should only get better. I just have this unshakable feeling that it might be one season too early for us to win hard fought KO matches against sides experienced in those situations. We can be absolutely fantastic for periods but still go missing for others.

I think once we get our internationals back, it will define our season.

We certainly aren't as strong as at the beginning of the season, but there has been far more rotation which is good.

Bit of a nervy game with the usual bizaar decisions you expect from Dickson. Not sure how Wells was pinged for rolling when the ball was out and ge hands been tackled.

Thought it should have been a pen try at the end too as a load of Bath players went in at the side as it was marching towards the line.

Still, a win is a win. Great to see Burns putting some performances together too.

Don't think you're allowed to go off your feet and roll forward without momentum. Prevents players going for the ball so is a pen.

doctor_grey wrote:By the way, don't ask me about the Saints match.  

I got that one bang on on Superbru ... sorry

king_carlos wrote:Not a great performance but got the job done. I feel I've typed/said that a lot recently as a Tigers fan.

We are developing a frustrating tendency to start strong then fall asleep for long periods and we are leaving points on the pitch.

If I had to predict our Premiership season being brutally honest at the minute I'd say that I think we will hold onto 1st or 2nd in the table leading to a home semi we should be able to win. I could then see us meeting either Sarries or Chiefs in the final and losing a game with a tight scoreline but one that we never really looked in control of as the lineout causes us trouble with retaining our own ball and conceding pens on the oppositions against international quality second rows.

I don't want to sound too negative either. The progress under Borthwick is startling, this is a fantastic squad with many young players that should only get better. I just have this unshakable feeling that it might be one season too early for us to win hard fought KO matches against sides experienced in those situations. We can be absolutely fantastic for periods but still go missing for others.

Agree with that. Think you may just fall short given the teams at the top. You have a tonne of great players coming through. You obviously know I think you'll get stronger with the potential change at 9. The fly half change will be interesting, Pollard behind a pack like Leicester will be very good but for me he isn't as good as Ford.

king_carlos wrote:Sarries losing is big for Tigers in terms of the table. 12 points up, but Sarries have a game in hand, as opposed to a potential 8 points up with Sarries having an extra game.

Gloucester (H), Sarries (A), LI (H), Chiefs (A), Quins (A), Bristol (H), Falcons (A), Wasps (H)

That's the Tigers run in for the Jeff. 3 really tough away games against Sarries, Chiefs and Quins.

Sarries will be the big one in terms of 1st place. It's a Six Nations rest weekend so they'll have Tompkins and likely Isiekwe back with England's expected second row returnees. Tigers should get Heyes back and I'd hope Chessum as well with all the locks returning. A huge game.

I wouldn't worry too much .... Irish drew away at Sarries and won at home, beat Chiefs home and away, and beat Quins away - yet to play them at home ...  I think I might be dreaming that though ...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

nathan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Not a great performance but got the job done. I feel I've typed/said that a lot recently as a Tigers fan.

We are developing a frustrating tendency to start strong then fall asleep for long periods and we are leaving points on the pitch.

If I had to predict our Premiership season being brutally honest at the minute I'd say that I think we will hold onto 1st or 2nd in the table leading to a home semi we should be able to win. I could then see us meeting either Sarries or Chiefs in the final and losing a game with a tight scoreline but one that we never really looked in control of as the lineout causes us trouble with retaining our own ball and conceding pens on the oppositions against international quality second rows.

I don't want to sound too negative either. The progress under Borthwick is startling, this is a fantastic squad with many young players that should only get better. I just have this unshakable feeling that it might be one season too early for us to win hard fought KO matches against sides experienced in those situations. We can be absolutely fantastic for periods but still go missing for others.

I think once we get our internationals back, it will define our season.

We certainly aren't as strong as at the beginning of the season, but there has been far more rotation which is good.

Bit of a nervy game with the usual bizaar decisions you expect from Dickson. Not sure how Wells was pinged for rolling when the ball was out and ge hands been tackled.

Thought it should have been a pen try at the end too as a load of Bath players went in at the side as it was marching towards the line.

Still, a win is a win. Great to see Burns putting some performances together too.

Don't think you're allowed to go off your feet and roll forward without momentum. Prevents players going for the ball so is a pen.

Thought he ran and dived on the ball so had the momentum. Either way, not a fan of Dickson (he makes Bob decisions for all teams). No idea how he got a six nations game next week.