Worcester-Sixways, LI and Wasps, WTF?

First topic message reminder :

And no, I don’t mean “welcome to Facebook” .
I logged onto the forum a few days ago to learn more about what has happened to these clubs expecting to a thread on this. But I had to write one instead. (Should I have used the title “who cares”?)

After listening to an OTB interview with an English reporter on the subject I gather that no staff working at Worcester have been paid for months, including those on low wages who will have missed mortgage payments and since their finances/ accounts still haven’t been properly kept they can’t yet be sold so there’s no hope of a white knight rescuing them. Their finances were completely mismanaged. Wasps appear to be in a better position and although they’ll be relegated will continue to exist. They are struggling to pay a tax bill and a debt incurred when they moved to London. (I thought this sounded weird, why move to a crazy expensive city packed with other sports teams?)

Below is an interesting article from the BBC on this topic.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/63053674
What shocked me about this article is the following: “ One club owner, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told BBC Sport: "I don't think there's one owner who'd tell you the model is working. It's completely flawed." Bristol Bears owner Stephen Lansdown recently said there is "just not enough money in the game,” If this is true, why is it true?

In the meantime , other clubs in the prem have voted to increase the salary cap at a time when many clubs are struggling with debts. This all sounds seriously worrying and suggests that clubs in the prem will soon have bigger financial problems in the future trying to pay even more in wages. Which suggests that more will start to go bust. And they voted to increase the salary cap? Am I missing something here or is this as dysfunctional as it sounds? And how can there not be enough money in the game in England? Rugby fans from other countries also regularly say how great the competition is, fans are absolutely showing up to see it, the competition is healthy, tv contracts are in place, cvc threw money at it recently. In theory things should be great. So….Welcome to Facebook?

(By the way this thread isn’t an invitation to slam the premiership or gloat. We are all rugby fans first and foremost and this could just as easily happen to your own club.)

Cardiff will be in the market for the Welsh contingent no doubt. Probably their Welsh fly-half and prop.

Do/did Wuss have a Welsh prop?

Williams should be picked up by a region. His game has limitations that never really improved but he's got a huge boot and covers 10 and 12.

Beck hasn't played yet this season but chained together three solid seasons in a row before this one. He should get picked up as well.

Marc Thomas.

Oakdene wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Good point re Jim Hamilton
I forget how much players move around in GB.

By contrast if the Ulster side is what I expect it to be tomorrow there will be 11 who have never played
for another team at senior level and only 3 who who have played outside Ireland at that level
Treadwell (6 times), Vermuelen, Madigan


In other news read that Wasps may have to sell the Ricoh

Don't they lease it?

I think that Wasps RFC don't own it but the company that own Wasps also own the stadium. It's the usual financial shuffling around for "tax efficiency" purposes.

The BBC has discovered that Coventry City Council, as freeholder of the stadium, has the right to force Wasps to forfeit the lease "if the tenant enters into some kind of insolvency regime".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63155795

Thanks to King Carlos for the ownership timeline - Cov council are in a hard place now though, if they foreclose on Wasps lease there's no one else who can pick up except Coventry City who are in the football Championship and have plans to build a stadium of their own elsewhere.

A company in the Wasps group own the Leasehold but Coventry Council retain the Freehold - I think !

mikey_dragon wrote:Cardiff will be in the market for the Welsh contingent no doubt. Probably their Welsh fly-half and prop.

Would Dragons not be keen on Williams? When he's fit he's a step up on what they have.

No, I think we’re okay with what we have in Hanrahan, Davies, O’Brien and now Reed. I’d rather Steve Diamond, Mark Jones, defence coach, a TH, a lock, Nanai all before Williams. I reckon Owen might be a better fit at Ospreys or Cardiff - in place of Myler and Priestland.

mikey_dragon wrote:Marc Thomas.

I thought Thomas left at the end of last season?

king_carlos wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Marc Thomas.

I thought Thomas left at the end of last season?

I don’t think so. He’s still listed on their website. I think he’s a squad filler anyway, so not really that useful for someone like Cardiff.

mikey_dragon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Marc Thomas.

I thought Thomas left at the end of last season?

I don’t think so. He’s still listed on their website. I think he’s a squad filler anyway, so not really that useful for someone like Cardiff.

He left for Cardiff RFC in the summer. Don't trust the Wuss website, it hasn't been updated as they were locked out for non-payment that or the staff weren't paid to update it.

Harri Doel is a young diminutive winger with a ridiculous step, I'd expect him to be at a Welsh side soon.

Yeah they still have Sam Lewis on there. I think he left in the middle of last season.

mikey_dragon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Marc Thomas.

I thought Thomas left at the end of last season?

I don’t think so. He’s still listed on their website. I think he’s a squad filler anyway, so not really that useful for someone like Cardiff.

Marc Thomas plays for the Rags

http://cardiffrfc.com/player?id=154707&authtoken=N0MwRjlEMjYtMTU5Ni00RjdCLTk4Q0YtMzAxQUIyQTdEQkVG&teamid=MTAzOTY5

I thought Dayglo was a total prat on Sunday.

Basically Worcester going is down to them but Wasps are too big and too important to be allowed to fail.
Its all down to Covid and therefore should be ignored.
Really ??

Wasps had problems before Covid.
I am pretty certain all teams had to deal with Covid.

He is so biased to Wasps when talking about them.
Kay, Healey, Monye are by contrast fairly even handed.
Having said that listening to Monye you would get the impression that wingers are the only players who count

Yeah, I thought that was poor from him really & very insensitive to those who have lost their jobs following Worcesters demise.

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that listening to Monye you would get the impression that wingers are the only players who count

We are. The rest of the team are just there help us look good

geoff999rugby wrote:I thought Dayglo was a total prat on Sunday.

Really? Only on Sunday? I think he comes across as a prat most the time.

Given his previous I'm surprised BT still keep in contract.

carpet baboon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that listening to Monye you would get the impression that wingers are the only players who count

We are. The rest of the team are just there help us look good

You must have very nice hair and a kickin' manicure.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I thought Dayglo was a total prat on Sunday.

Really? Only on Sunday? I think he comes across as a prat most the time.

Given his previous I'm surprised BT still keep in contract.

Good point.

Being a prat is Dayglo's permanent status not a temporary condition

doctor_grey wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that listening to Monye you would get the impression that wingers are the only players who count

We are. The rest of the team are just there help us look good

You must have very nice hair and a kickin' manicure.  

My hair is fabulous.

Wasps are set to go into administration within days & will not fulfil this weekends fixture against Exeter.

Well there really will be a scramble for some of the Wasps players. Does not sounds good at all. The Coventry move and all the upheaval was supposed to safeguard their future...

This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/12/wasps-pull-out-of-exeter-match-and-set-to-enter-administration-within-days

Anymore for anymore ?

You have to wonder if the rumours of two more teams have any basis.

Reduced fixtures - wonder what the BT contract small print says?

Also read Mike Ashley was sniffing around.
If HMRC don't bring Wasps down that total scum bag would

There's worse. The current owners of Newcastle United for example.

That a very low bar.
You can add Man City to that list.
Any worse in the UK - that bumhole in charge of Wetherspoons comes to mind as his equal

I know people who have worked for Sports Direct
and they way they were treated is unbelivable.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

This is bad. I think the Premiership has to immediately raise the salary cap to allow the other clubs to hire many of Wasps and Worcester players, though some of the Worcester players have already landed. And the rationale is the two most financially at risk clubs were unable to prevent themselves from being insolvent, so the rest of the clubs can theoretically be able to absorb more salary. This is not so much about competitive balance - it's about taking care of two sets of players who lost their clubs in the last week.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

In regards to the BT contract they will have a set number of games per season that the Premiership must provide, if they cannot provide that number of games there will be financial penalties based on how far they fall short. Given that it is 2 clubs (effectively 1 less game per week) and BT Sport don't show every game each week anyways I am guessing the contract would still be fine that way.
Will be more awkward for the prem to have to rejig its fixtures mid season to take account of it.

Most sad however is for the people who work in them clubs, invariably a number of the players will land elsewhere (Ulster for example I'm sure would be interested in Tom Willis), some of the coaches too but so many of the support staff will be out of a job. Sad for the fans too of said clubs many of whom will have supported them for years to find them no longer around.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

The rfu could pick up 80 per cent of wages like the wru do? So we could say they are independent but rely on the union?

I'm enjoying the great journalism which was relied on to say that the prem were interested in the Welsh clubs is now saying its a real shame the prem hounded out the 'best owner of the lot' who tried to cheat (and succeeded for a few years). What a guy.

Baxter calling for a 10 team Prem. Seems some more prominent commentators suggesting some more fundamental changes including a more hands on approach from the RFU. May be a good time for the RFU to step in and take more control and the league and some of the clubs, maybe force through central contracts etc.

Worcester appealing though (BBC):

Administrators for Worcester Warriors say they will appeal against the Rugby Football Union's decision to suspend the Premiership club for the season and relegate them to the Championship.

Julie Palmer, from Begbies Traynor Group, told the BBC they will contest the punishments on a "no fault insolvency" basis.

Warriors went into administration on 26 September, triggering their suspension.

Their season-long ban and relegation were confirmed 10 days later.

Fellow Premiership side Wasps said on Wednesday that they too are "likely" to go into administration "within days".

Under the RFU's insolvency regulations, any punishments for entering administration could be "reduced" or "waived" if the club can satisfy the governing body that the reasons for doing so "would not have occurred but for an event or circumstance which was beyond the control and without the fault or negligence of the affected club".

Warriors will hope to prove their financial issues were down to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic, which severely affected sport clubs across the country.

Worcester were given a £15m loan from Sport England as part of the government's sports survival package during the pandemic, with the total debt across the Premiership thought to be £500m.

Warriors' overall debt is believed to about £25m, including £6m owed to HMRC in unpaid tax, but Palmer told BBC Hereford and Worcester the total amount outstanding is "a moving target" - adding that they were "close to establishing rugby creditors subject to anything else found".

She also confirmed the ownership of the stadium, surrounding land and training pitches was still placed in different companies of former owners Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring, but "within our appointment over all entities".

The part of the club that was responsible for paying the players and staff - WRFC Players Ltd - was wound up in the High Court on 5 October with several players since signing for new clubs, following the termination of their contracts at Sixways.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.

Worcester and Coventry aren't really considered rugby areas. I'm not sure what it was like for Wasps before they moved away from London/High Wycombe.

Anyway, Cardiff and Scarlets move a step closer .

They going under as well mikey?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.

I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

Clubs in England are not propped up by the unions......some occasionally get into financial trouble. It's the risk with professional sport and running more than 4 clubs (money is obviously spread thinner).

You seem to have come onto this topic with an agenda Leinster and you're currently toeing a very fine line.

Nobody wants to see any team get into these kind of situations, it's heartbreaking for the fans.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.

I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

It's not the league's fault if owners want to asset strip a club and make it go under. This is always going to be the risk if you're club is independently owned. This isn't a new thing.

The RFU can propose central contracts - how is that going to help the likes of London Irish and Worcester? Do they have loads of England players?

The RFU could grant central contracts and support for wages but then wield more power in where those players play their club rugby and limit how much they can play. There's risk of course to every pro sport. Just because a team is supported by unions don't mean they'll be around for ever.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Clubs in England are not propped up by the unions......some occasionally get into financial trouble. It's the risk with professional sport and running more than 4 clubs (money is obviously spread thinner).

You seem to have come onto this topic with an agenda Leinster and you're currently toeing a very fine line.

Nobody wants to see any team get into these kind of situations, it's heartbreaking for the fans.

This is absolutely hilarious, whilst I'm expressing concern for the overall health of rugby union (check earlier posts) there are prem fans on the transfer rumour threads seeing which players from Wuss and Wasps would fit into their club and that was before the clubs had even confirmed their suspension . Like how much more disrespectful can you get? I don't want to see any clubs go under, let alone big clubs like Wasps and Worcester. Club rugby is small enough as it is.

LeinsterFan4life wrote: You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

Also,what does this mean? 'Supposed club?'

So what happens at the end of this season?
Wasps and Wuss go down to the Championship leaving eleven in the Premiership - is there going to be promotion for any of the Championship teams or are PRL going to hide behind the "ground standards" issue yet again?
Would next season be a good time for the RFU, PRL and the clubs to "take stock" of the situation across the board and start looking at a complete overhaul of the league system and club/player funding, with the new structure to be in place in 2024 - after the RWC.
The whole professional structure needs a root and branch reform at top level - league set up, player wages/salary caps, stadium requirements, central contracts, nothing should be off the table - has anyone got the power/will to make it happen?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.

I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

It's not the league's fault if owners want to asset strip a club and make it go under. This is always going to be the risk if you're club is independently owned. This isn't a new thing.

The RFU can propose central contracts - how is that going to help the likes of London Irish and Worcester? Do they have loads of England players?

It's not the leagues job to vet whether owners are capable of running a club or whether a club is sustainable? Interesting.

The most interesting suggestion I have heard is replacing the PRL with a totally independent commissioner like they have in the NFL and NBA.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.

I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

It's not the league's fault if owners want to asset strip a club and make it go under. This is always going to be the risk if you're club is independently owned. This isn't a new thing.

The RFU can propose central contracts - how is that going to help the likes of London Irish and Worcester? Do they have loads of England players?

It's not the leagues job to vet whether owners are capable of running a club or whether a club is sustainable? Interesting.

Odd response. Any investor can wake up one morning and decide to sell off parts of things they own. How are they supposed to know if perfectly able, wealthy investors will change their mind and asset strip a club? The Duckworths handed it over to reliable owners.They were vetted. It happens in pro sport. Well, normal pro sport leagues that is, not ones that have organisations running multiple entrants.

carpet baboon wrote:The most interesting suggestion I have heard is replacing the PRL with a totally independent commissioner like they have in the NFL and NBA.

How would that stop what has just happenned?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The most interesting suggestion I have heard is replacing the PRL with a totally independent commissioner like they have in the NFL and NBA.

How would that stop what has just happenned?

I believe that the way it works is everyone's books are open to the commissioner so they can see how balanced or not they are, so can see if they are headed for trouble.
I can't quite remember all the details but I'm sure someone who is more familiar with the way it works in the US would shed some.light

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This is a disaster how is this being allowed to happen? Rugby cannot afford to lose clubs of this size.

What's your solution? The RFU can't own and run 13 pro clubs. So private owners have to pick up the tab.

This rare occurence is the price a club pays for indepdence with no Union interference.

Rare? That's Wuss, Wasps, Leeds, London Scottish and London Welsh off the top of my head (I'm sure there's more) that's gone bust and that's just England! There's something seriously wrong with the way club rugby is being run at the minute.

So 5 times in 25 years or so of professionalism?

There's no other way round it. The RFU doesn't have a spare £100m per annum to run these clubs.You have good owners, you have bad owners.

I said off the top of my head... There's also Moseley, Waterloo, Orrell, Richmond, Coventry, West Hartlepool and Old Elthamians. With rumours of Sale, Newcastle and London Irish in trouble. I like the way you just shrug your shoulders as of its nothing... If this happened in the celtic league you'd be all over this and calling the competition a sham. You bash the league your supposed club plays in for a hell of a lot less.

It's not the league's fault if owners want to asset strip a club and make it go under. This is always going to be the risk if you're club is independently owned. This isn't a new thing.

The RFU can propose central contracts - how is that going to help the likes of London Irish and Worcester? Do they have loads of England players?

It's not the leagues job to vet whether owners are capable of running a club or whether a club is sustainable? Interesting.

Odd response. Any investor can wake up one morning and decide to sell off parts of things they own. How are they supposed to know if perfectly able, wealthy investors will change their mind and asset strip a club? The Duckworths handed it over to reliable owners.They were vetted. It happens in pro sport. Well, normal pro sport leagues that is, not ones that have organisations running multiple entrants.

Odd that you keep using just Worcester as an example, when it has been shown to have been many and could potentially be more... Your blase attitude to this is hilarious. Anyway moving on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0d6hbmv

Do we have any indication on which other 2 clubs are also struggling?