[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Positive vibes coming out...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/26/steve-borthwick-bringing-real-clarity-to-englands-style-reveals-lewis-ludlam

Well every player under every coach always praises their methods etc. Par for course. Don't think there's ever been a player who has criticised a Int coach methods whilst playing for him.

I do think though it's good the paddleboarding etc has been canned. Concentrate on rugby, that's it. Borthwick got very limited time so he has to although I suspect that will be his MO anyway.
No frills training and tactics. Driving maul. Hmmm, exciting.

I agree..but i suspect many players were struggling under Jones style...so maybe there will be quite a lot of relief in the squad if Borthwick pulls it back to the basics for a while.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Positive vibes coming out...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/26/steve-borthwick-bringing-real-clarity-to-englands-style-reveals-lewis-ludlam

Well every player under every coach always praises their methods etc. Par for course. Don't think there's ever been a player who has criticised a Int coach methods whilst playing for him.

I do think though it's good the paddleboarding etc has been canned. Concentrate on rugby, that's it. Borthwick got very limited time so he has to although I suspect that will be his MO anyway.
No frills training and tactics. Driving maul. Hmmm, exciting.

I agree..but i suspect many players were struggling under Jones style...so maybe there will be quite a lot of relief in the squad if Borthwick pulls it back to the basics for a while.  

The set pieces were a bit hit and miss before so tooling them up makes sense. Rugby is much easier if the restart, scrum, lineout and rolling maul all just function well.

A clearer message doesn't always mean basic either though I imagine they have stripped back a lot of the on the fly play calling though I hope they've kept the variable shapes just maybe limited them in scope.

Elliot Daly ruled out of the 6 nations.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:Positive vibes coming out...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/26/steve-borthwick-bringing-real-clarity-to-englands-style-reveals-lewis-ludlam

Well every player under every coach always praises their methods etc. Par for course. Don't think there's ever been a player who has criticised a Int coach methods whilst playing for him.

I do think though it's good the paddleboarding etc has been canned. Concentrate on rugby, that's it. Borthwick got very limited time so he has to although I suspect that will be his MO anyway.
No frills training and tactics. Driving maul. Hmmm, exciting.

I agree..but i suspect many players were struggling under Jones style...so maybe there will be quite a lot of relief in the squad if Borthwick pulls it back to the basics for a while.  

The set pieces were a bit hit and miss before so tooling them up makes sense. Rugby is much easier if the restart, scrum, lineout and rolling maul all just function well.

A clearer message doesn't always mean basic either though I imagine they have stripped back a lot of the on the fly play calling though I hope they've kept the variable shapes just maybe limited them in scope.

Thats very true....easier to understand...

Players generally have two goals (beyond staying fit and getting selected): to win stuff, and to become better players.

Eddie has consistently been hailed as a good man manager and developer of players, and club DoRs have regularly said that players come back from time with England as better players (as long as he hasn't broken them). He's also regarded as a visionary who has repeatedly anticipated changes in the game and developed tactics to exploit them - but his downfall has regularly been focusing on the vision rather than the match in front of him.

The early word on Borthwick has been around clarity and detail, and his track record is one of getting teams winning things quickly.

You can see how players could respond positively to both of them but in different ways

Arundell and Watson both back in match day squads too. Adds a bit of pressure to Murley and H-C i would imagine; they'll be desperate to start vs Scotland.

One more winger to add to the all ready impressive choice SB has,, Ollie Sleightholme is back, I have only read the report, but a try, 2 turnovers and a try saving wrappup over the line in the game against Tigers, not bad for only his second match coming back from injury, scored in his first as well if my memory is correct.  He was there or there abouts with EJ before he got injured, it will be interesting to see if SB tkes the same interest.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:One more winger to add to the all ready impressive choice SB has,, Ollie Sleightholme is back, I have only read the report, but a try, 2 turnovers and a try saving wrappup over the line in the game against Tigers, not bad for only his second match coming back from injury, scored in his first as well if my memory is correct.  He was there or there abouts with EJ before he got injured, it will be interesting to see if SB tkes the same interest.

He's not an international winger, he won't even be first choice at Saints (if everyone's fit maybe not in the 23?). His try was a walk in created by sublime skill from Ramm. He gave a penalty away that was an easy three points for Tigers and offered naff all in kicking game or ball in hand. His two turnovers are really his highlights from that one. Now there's some suggestion that Ramm might be qualified through his dad and there's a bloke who could be an international winger (if he sorts his tackle technique out). Big, strong, decent boot, offloading game, not bad under the high ball and good finisher.

What Borthwick is going to want on the wing will become clear from this 6N. Will he opt for fullback capable wingers to help his kicking game or will he look for something akin to last season with a strike winger on one side and a work horse on the other. The strike winger is given licence to roam and the work horse is used as the primary kick chase option and holds their width in attack.

So Lawes and Slade ruled out.......but George and Watson included.

Watching the Quins game yesterday...somebody who could potentially challenge Steward, Nick David. He's been quietly having a great season, runs some great lines. Very much reminds me of a French style FB, has great counter attacking.

Not sure he'd be too high on my list for England. He's probably a way back from Green from a club perspective.

There's a number of good young fullback options to understudy to Steward, David might have to join the queue. Carpenter at Sale, Freeman at Saints, Hodge is finally coming through at Chiefs and then that's before we get to the summer messiah Arundell. From famine to feast at 15.

Me neither tbh on previous seasons, but he's looked excellent when I've seen him this season. He's possibly the best English FB I've seen in the Prem when I think about it....

Form wise? Or would you have him in the team?

No one is likely to challenge Steward for a while. Especially when hes starting to show signs that his attacking intelligence is improving alot aswell.

I'm not suggesting he replace Steward, more him being the form FB in the Prem (from what I've seen).

Just getting the right players around him. Arundell will be in the match day squad I'm sure as he simply does things others can't. I think Hassell-Collins is/should be pretty much nailed on to get a run of games now, only left footed kicker in the back field may pull in his favour. Was thinking Murley was going to get that run at right wing but could well be Watson as he also looks in form, along with his experience and proven quality. I do think it's important that Borthwick backs whoever is chosen now and doesn't get tempted to chop and change. Unless he choses Youngs, and then he should immediately drop him for Italy.

Watson has tended to look decent straight back from injury but not back to his best until at least his third game in though why bother recalling him if he isn't going to play? I still like Tommy Freeman, 6ft2 and 16 stone plus 7 tries in 13 games this season. He's great under the high ball and not what you'd call slow. Considering the start of the 6N tends to be in iffy conditions have a back three of Steward, Freemand and Watson would give us a lot of high ball skill for the eventual kick tennis. Scotland have injuries in the back three so we could maybe look to target one of them depending on who they pick.

Watson is a class act..and when fit is set in there really.

11. ?? Murley v OHC
14. Watson
15. Steward

I thought you'd be wanting to keep Watson out of the side given his injuries.

No im fickle...i only use the injury excuse when i dont like a player in the side.

lol.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting he replace Steward, more him being the form FB in the Prem (from what I've seen).

David's strengths and weaknesses are the mirror image of Steward's - he's very rapid (even allowing for Steward's improvements) with a real change of direction, and a superb counterattacking runner. But he's nowhere near as secure under the high ball (which I imagine rules him out as a primary fullback). I guess they are about even on positioning - good, but not flawless.

I think if Green comes back from injury well, most Quins fans would rather have him in the 15 shirt. But he's out for a long time and we are very happy seeing David in the 23. My suspicion is that he's not quite physical enough to be an international FB, though, and has a lot of competition for the wing slot (including Murley, who is the clear Quins 1st choice even with all the players fit).

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting he replace Steward, more him being the form FB in the Prem (from what I've seen).

David's strengths and weaknesses are the mirror image of Steward's - he's very rapid (even allowing for Steward's improvements) with a real change of direction, and a superb counterattacking runner. But he's nowhere near as secure under the high ball (which I imagine rules him out as a primary fullback). I guess they are about even on positioning - good, but not flawless.

I think if Green comes back from injury well, most Quins fans would rather have him in the 15 shirt. But he's out for a long time and we are very happy seeing David in the 23. My suspicion is that he's not quite physical enough to be an international FB, though, and has a lot of competition for the wing slot (including Murley, who is the clear Quins 1st choice even with all the players fit).

Above Lynagh you'd say?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not suggesting he replace Steward, more him being the form FB in the Prem (from what I've seen).

David's strengths and weaknesses are the mirror image of Steward's - he's very rapid (even allowing for Steward's improvements) with a real change of direction, and a superb counterattacking runner. But he's nowhere near as secure under the high ball (which I imagine rules him out as a primary fullback). I guess they are about even on positioning - good, but not flawless.

I think if Green comes back from injury well, most Quins fans would rather have him in the 15 shirt. But he's out for a long time and we are very happy seeing David in the 23. My suspicion is that he's not quite physical enough to be an international FB, though, and has a lot of competition for the wing slot (including Murley, who is the clear Quins 1st choice even with all the players fit).

Above Lynagh you'd say?

From what I have seen - YES

I'd agree. Murley is fractionally less powerful than Lynagh, but has a more complete game, a lower error count and a record over the last 2 1/2 seasons that speaks for itself.

Lynagh is very good too, and at first Quins fans were more impressed by the blond try scoring machine than one of several similar sized, similar-looking Academy backs. But Murley has won us over by being consistently excellent in game after game.

I'll be an interested observer anyway on the battle for the England wings. I think there are 4 wingers in those 2, Slieghtholme and Freeman where they look really good prem wings who score quite freely but may benefit from the teams they play with.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll be an interested observer anyway on the battle for the England wings. I think there are 4 wingers in those 2, Slieghtholme and Freeman where they look really good prem wings who score quite freely but may benefit from the teams they play with.

Isn't it the case that all wings benefit (or suffer) from the teams they play with? A better metric is to look at who they score against, how, and when. A player who scores against a wide range of opposition, regularly beats defenders or breaks the line to score and does so even when his or her team is getting beaten is more likely to be able to step up to international level than one whose primary skill is to get on the end of moves started by someone else.

I think at international level, rugby intelligence counts for a lot. There are fewer gaps and better tacklers, so what I look for in a winger is the ability to read the game well. Johnny May matured from a guy who'd scored a lot at Prem level by scooting around like an 11 yo but being so fast it didn't matter into a guy whose positioning made a lot of tries, particularly on kick chases. Watson always had a great reading of the game. Less successful England wingers have tended to be those who relied too much on whatever gave them the edge at Prem level and couldn't adapt to having less to work with.

I don't really know that much about Sleightholme, but the other three all have some smarts to their game. Freeman plays multiple positions pretty well, Lynagh has the benefit of having been trained by his dad (and having seen one of the younger Lynaghs playing at U14 up close, Michael clearly taught his sons to read the game well), Murley is notable by how few things he gets wrong.

Has Jamie George actually passed his protocols?

Well we needed new blood, or at least to look at it on the wings for a little while. Can't help but feel that Jones wasted too much time giving people half chances.

George has passed the protocols so far but not all of them have come to pass yet.

Looks like Dan Kelly has withdrawn from the squad, Guy Porter called up as a replacement.

Cumbrian wrote:Looks like Dan Kelly has withdrawn from the squad, Guy Porter called up as a replacement.

Thigh injury for Dan, hopefully not a serious one. Porter will only be there to make up the numbers the game on Saturday was his return from injury and he wasn't particularly match sharp.

At the risk of being virtually flambeed by many on this forum, losing Kelly and Slade would seem to increase the likelihood that Farrell will retain the 12 shirt for Saturday...

Kelly is the first injury I'd consider a blow, particularly as the replacement ain't remotely in his class.

I like Farrell at 12 but personally see Tuilagi marked for that role, just depends if he goes Lawrence or Marchant. The former is in better form but the latter potentially the better partner to Manu?

Farrell at 12 offers nothing for me. 10 or nowhere but see below.
We could conceivably see Youngs Smith Farrell at 9 10 12 and that did not work at all unless someone can convince me otherwise.
Manu if fit at 12, Lawrence or Marchant 13. Start Farrell at 10 with Smith bench. If need be move Farrell to 12 later in match to accomodate Smith at 10.

Farrell at 12 only seems to work with his childhood buddy Ford, presumably as they have a good understanding of each other.

Farrell 10, Tuilagi 12, Marchant or Lawrence at 13 works for me.

Poorfour wrote:At the risk of being virtually flambeed by many on this forum, losing Kelly and Slade would seem to increase the likelihood that Farrell will retain the 12 shirt for Saturday...

You cannot flambé anyone without the accent - é.  And that's aigu to you....

p.s I hope you are wrong, but my spidy senses tell me it is more than likely.

Shame about Kelly, it was a good opportunity for him if selected.

I have an official email from Quins that I think was sent out way too early, because it has a (broken) link to a story congratulating all 5 Quins for making the matchday 23...

lol


Lmfao even

Poorfour wrote:I have an official email from Quins that I think was sent out way too early, because it has a (broken) link to a story congratulating all 5 Quins for making the matchday 23...

The only one that was a doubt would have been Murley but his high workrate on both sides of the ball would have always been popular with Steve and Kev. The other four were pretty certain to be included somewhere in the 23.

Is it Thursday for the team release? Bit boring that, earlier in the week would allow more build up.

Given the reign of silence Borthwick oversaw at Tigers I'd love to see his reaction to that Quins email 

Tigers released so little information under Borth that I frequently read queries online about whether the social media, comms and PR managaer Sam Williamson was still working at the club!

The only way it could have been less open at times was if they'd started refusing to announce a full 23 in favour of letting folk guess who was on the bench until the team rocked up.

Quin's fans... Is jack walker international standard? Must admit haven't noticed him when watching quin's.

Urgh. Ludlam over Willis. Borthwick out. Murley cut too along with Mitchell. At least Hill is gone. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Urgh. Ludlam over Willis. Borthwick out. Murley cut too along with Mitchell. At least Hill is gone. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

The old boss would not have dropped Hill and Willis.

Hill at least you'd imagine be there. Jones made the mistake of dropping Willis before. We have Itoje and then Ribbans or Chessum at lock and Isiekwe probably at 6 then. Earl looks set for 7? Could be curry.

Yoda wrote:Quin's fans... Is jack walker international standard? Must admit haven't noticed him when watching quin's. :shrug:

He was England U20s and then got a bit lost with his former club. Has been really good for Quins since he joined - carried and defends hard, arrows are OK as long as he's got a bit of consistency with his targets. He came in as a direct replacement for Scott Baldwin and filled those shoes pretty much as soon as he was playing regularly.

The Quins coaches have said they brought him in as a setpiece player but have been surprised and impressed by how much he does in the loose and how he's stepped up as a leader within the pack. He's keeping two talented youngsters in Jack Musk and George Head out of the shirt, too.

He's done well enough to earn a shot. You never know how players will do at international level til you try them, but I think there's a good chance he'll step up.

So the remaining 29 are:

Forwards (16):
Hooker: Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, 3 caps); Jamie George (Saracens, 72 caps); Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Looseheads: Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 43 caps); Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 74 caps)
Tightheads: Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps); Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 56 caps)
Locks: Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps); Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 8 caps); Maro Itoje (Saracens, 62 caps); David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
Flankers: Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 1 cap), Ben Earl (Saracens, 13 caps)
No 8: Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 9 caps); Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 14 caps); Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs (13)
Scrum halves: Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps); Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 121 caps)
Fly halves: Owen Farrell (Saracens, 101 caps); Fin Smith (Northampton Saints, uncapped); Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 17 caps)
Centres: Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 7 caps); Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 13 caps); Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 50 caps)
Wings: Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 3 caps); Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped); Max Malins (Saracens, 14 caps); Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
Full backs: Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)

So - still a lot of options in most positions and only a handful that look locked down. Shame about Murley, but he'll have other chances.

Aah yes. Mako with his face in the dirt at scrum time, some time around 65 minutes. Again.

Hopefully the likes of Earl, Dombrandt, Hassell-Collins and Lawrence will start. Shame for Alex Mitchell though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hill at least you'd imagine be there. Jones made the mistake of dropping Willis before. We have Itoje and then Ribbans or Chessum at lock and Isiekwe probably at 6 then. Earl looks set for 7? Could be curry.

Could be Chessum at 6 instead of Isiekwe. Maybe go with the Sarries lock combo but more likely Ribbans and Itoje. Ribbans should offer a better platform for the tighthead side, though Saints scrum might not show it.