Ireland v France, Sat, 2:15, Landsdowne Road

First topic message reminder :

Ireland Team:

Gibson Park, Furlong, Sheehan and Healy out for Ireland.

15. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 26 caps
14. Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians) 10 caps
13. Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD) 48 caps
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 10 caps
11. James Lowe (Leinster) 16 caps
10. Johnny Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 110 caps (c)
9. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 101 caps
1. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 49 caps
2. Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 32 caps
3. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers) 28 caps
4. Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 37 caps
5. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 49 caps
6. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 90 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 46 caps
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 24 caps

Replacements: 16. Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 18 caps, 17. Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians) 49 caps, 18. Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 5 caps, 19. Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 69 caps, 20. Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 34 caps, 21. Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon) 8 caps, 22. Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 15 caps, 23. Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 42 caps

France Team:
Woki, Danty, Villiere out as expected. Only change from the Italy game is with the subs, Thomas Lavault and Nolann Le Garrec drop out of the squad. François Cros and Baptiste Couilloud come in. No one will be surprised by the 6-2 bench split.

1 Baille
2 Marchand
3 Atonio
4 Flament
5 Willemse
6 Jelonch
7 Ollivon
8 Aldrit
9 Dupont (C)
10 Ntamak
11 Dumortier
12 Moefana
13 Fikou
14 Penau
15 Ramos

Subs: Barlot, Wardi, Falatea, Taofifenua, Cros, Macalou, Couilloud, Jalibert.

Ireland to win by 8. Wayne Barnes to ref.

What a match, yesssssss Ringrose.

Well finished

Game over

Collapse2005 wrote:Is Barnes afraid to give Ireland penalties?

Doesn't seem that way as a neutral. Barnes makes players work hard for turnover penalties.

He also seems to be against red cards where possible this season. Let Saints fullback off with what should have been a stone wall red card in the East Midlands Derby.

His officiating is seeing both teams play some great rugby though. Brilliant game for a neutral.

Quality territory management from Ireland to seal the win. The second half arm wrestle is how I thought the game would generally go.

We should try for another try now, really stick it up them.

Deserved win for Ireland. France's approach to this game was all wrong.

What a win for Ireland. A TBP win but again, lacked the clinical finishing that really would have put France away. France lucky to be within 13 if I may be honest.

2nd half not as crazy as the 1st - but how could it have been - great match overall though

Duty281 wrote:Deserved win for Ireland. France's approach to this game was all wrong.

Yeah they were fairly negative, kicked way too much

Congratulations Ireland well deserved winners. I suppose that is what to expect from the Number 1 team in the world.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Deserved win for Ireland. France's approach to this game was all wrong.

Yeah they were fairly negative, kicked way too much

That’s their game plan. They are a kicking team. The problem is that Ireland hold onto the ball too well.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Deserved win for Ireland. France's approach to this game was all wrong.

Yeah they were fairly negative, kicked way too much

They always kick more than anybody else.

I think the issue was that not many teams are as good as Ireland are in the back there and at half back and also France had a rookie winger and Penaud who's not long back from injury and who is a converted centre. Just meant Ireland dominated the kicking game where France normally at least gain parity.

France maybe should have tried to mix it up but I'm guessing they were backing the Edwards defence but wow they missed Woki in the second row. Physically the matched up but Ireland were just way more mobile. Doris an absolute beast.

Doris was exceptional today. Fickou had a poor one for France, he often stilted their attack rather than being the creative entity they required.

It went the way I hoped it would. Fast paced game which didn't suit France.

The worrying thing for France is ireland left a lot more scores out there. It's something ireland need to work on too.

Hugo Keenan is the best fullback in world rugby for me, he has all the skills. Though could have caught a few attacking high balls.

Also massive credit to Byrne and Casey, they both went for the jugular. Big balls.

Just got in after watching with my club. Absolutely fantastic match. Lung sucking stuff.
Congrats to Ireland, deserved winner and setting a real high bar for the rest of the tournament.

Great win, well done Ireland. This game didn’t disappoint. France were good at attacking in broken field play, but when Ireland didn’t give them that, they looked a bit lost and ineffective, so that’s good play by Ireland who do their all-around game so well.

Bealham has been good. He had big boots to fill, but he’s filling them.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Deserved win for Ireland. France's approach to this game was all wrong.

Yeah they were fairly negative, kicked way too much

They always kick more than anybody else.

I think the issue was that not many teams are as good as Ireland are in the back there and at half back and also France had a rookie winger and Penaud who's not long back from injury and who is a converted centre. Just meant Ireland dominated the kicking game where France normally at least gain parity.

France maybe should have tried to mix it up but I'm guessing they were backing the Edwards defence but wow they missed Woki in the second row. Physically the matched up but Ireland were just way more mobile. Doris an absolute beast.

Yeah I know alright but I thought they had a game plan b and c but it didnt look that way.

Doris is one of the most complete players I've ever seen. Just incredible. Fair play to France for bringing the intensity.

Its a good thing there’s a break after that match because there will be some injuries and sore bodies.

Ireland looking good. It is going to be difficult for anyone to stop them. France on the other hand looking like they are slowly losing their mojo.

Old Man wrote:Ireland looking good. It is going to be difficult for anyone to stop them. France on the other hand looking like they are slowly losing their mojo.

The RWC group is shaping up nicely. I am going to the Ireland v SA game in September and cant wait. Think it is the first time the two sides have met at a world cup.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Old Man wrote:Ireland looking good. It is going to be difficult for anyone to stop them. France on the other hand looking like they are slowly losing their mojo.

The RWC group is shaping up nicely. I am going to the Ireland v SA game in September and cant wait. Think it is the first time the two sides have met at a world cup.

Yep, I expect that match to be one of the highlights of the RWC.

My brother going to that match. Should be a good one.

On todays game. Great result from Ireland. We played very well to stop a great French side.

Doris was unplayable today. Some player. Beirne was a loss going off.

I thought Byrne and Casey played well when they came on.
Lowe’s try was top draw. On the other wing Hansen v DuPont was a bit of a mismatch in strength, would have been interesting if McClosky or Aki who had the ball then.

It’s certainly set up for a good, but tough game against Scotland.
Hopefully get another 5 point win against Italy first.

Not really wanting to have a 'Ref bash' but Barnes was awful yesterday. Both Ireland and France are quite in their rights to have grievances about his performance.

The hit on Herring, by the letter of the law and inline with the player protection directives, was a Red Card but the real concern for me was how long Herring was allowed to stay on before the HIA protocol was called into action for him.

The Lowe try was one of the best finishes from a winger I have seen for many years, truly brilliant. It did look as if his toes did brush the grass (Camera angle high looking down) but not the ground but not enough evidence to overrule the decision. Question is, had the try have been disallowed, would a penalty try and Yellow Card have been issued due to the 'no arms' tackle that took Lowe into touch?

Glad it wasnt a red, its much sweeter to beat France with 15 men and no asterisk beside the win.

Well done to my paddy cousins - that was a fierce and high quality game and you were absolutely value for the win. I don't know at what point the training academies clicked into high gear and the IRFU got their infrastructure right but the benefits are plain to see.

The great thing for Irish rugby is that there's no reason this position should change, provided you can direct enough people away from Gaelic games and keep rugby of interest to kids.

George Carlin wrote:Well done to my paddy cousins - that was a fierce and high quality game and you were absolutely value for the win. I don't know at what point the training academies clicked into high gear and the IRFU got their infrastructure right but the benefits are plain to see.

This is Schmidt's legacy for me. His development of 'grass roots' rugby in Ireland has built this strength in depth that they have.

There's a definite attempt to wrap on Lowe. And yes from the first angles with Barnes on field decision reasonably hard to disallow.

What does Farrell do next game at 9 if JGP is fit to play. Casey looked brilliant when he came on. Still a bit early to start him but does he replace Murray on the bench as back up for JGP?

That was a great performance from Wayne Barnes too. Best ref in world rugby .

mikey_dragon wrote:That was a great performance from Wayne Barnes too. Best ref in world rugby .

He made two very bad mistakes

Lowe's try should have been disallowed
The big fella should have got a red not a yellow

Very pleasing performance.

Not least for two differing reason

Firstly I actually feel we had a handful of players who didn't play particularly well - POM, Murray, Ringrose and Hansen

Secondly and absolutely crucially one of the fears, in the past, has been a lack of strength in depth
Bealham, Byrne and McCloskey have stepped up big time in their positions such that them playing is not a weakness.
In the end that just may be the biggest plus from this 6Nations

geoff999rugby wrote:Very pleasing performance.

Not least for two differing reason

Firstly I actually feel we had a handful of players who didn't play particularly well - POM, Murray, Ringrose and Hansen

Secondly and absolutely crucially one of the fears, in the past, has been a lack of strength in depth
Bealham, Byrne and McCloskey have stepped up big time in their positions such that them playing is not a weakness.
In the end that just may be the biggest plus from this 6Nations

I see where ye are coming from geoff.

POM, fluffed 2 lineouts but was generally at the heart of most things good from Ireland. That said, when Conan came on he looked a different beast all together.
Murray, in danger I feel. As good as he has been in the past, I feel that Casey is ahead of him and if JGP starts, Casey should be on the bench instead of him.
Ringrose, as good as an attacker that he is, he needs to step up his defensive work. Far too many missed tackles in the first 2 games but is still a nailed on starter.
Hansen, actually thought he played well and was constantly looking for work in the midfield. Can't fault him for not scoring as Dupont is a beast and had the defending angle on him.

On the defense, Porter is another that has to work on this. He missed 6 tackles but his other work cancels that out.

Murray spent at least part of the week in hospital with his dad who was in an accident, under the circumstances I thought he was excellent.

Understand that Collapse2005 but recent form would say, to me, that I think that his bench spot is in danger and I would like to see Casey given more opportunities in the lead up to the RWC.

eirebilly_01 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Very pleasing performance.

Not least for two differing reason

Firstly I actually feel we had a handful of players who didn't play particularly well - POM, Murray, Ringrose and Hansen

Secondly and absolutely crucially one of the fears, in the past, has been a lack of strength in depth
Bealham, Byrne and McCloskey have stepped up big time in their positions such that them playing is not a weakness.
In the end that just may be the biggest plus from this 6Nations

I see where ye are coming from geoff.

POM, fluffed 2 lineouts but was generally at the heart of most things good from Ireland. That said, when Conan came on he looked a different beast all together.
Murray, in danger I feel. As good as he has been in the past, I feel that Casey is ahead of him and if JGP starts, Casey should be on the bench instead of him.
Ringrose, as good as an attacker that he is, he needs to step up his defensive work. Far too many missed tackles in the first 2 games but is still a nailed on starter.
Hansen, actually thought he played well and was constantly looking for work in the midfield. Can't fault him for not scoring as Dupont is a beast and had the defending angle on him.

On the defense, Porter is another that has to work on this. He missed 6 tackles but his other work cancels that out.  

A lot of those missed tackles are due to him being the "shooter" in defense, its the nature of the game he plays. Even though some of the tackles miss, he still slows down and sometimes stops the opposition attack.

Great statistic from Tom English at the BBC that Hugo Keenan ran for 205m in the France game.

The only other player in this round who came close to that was Duey at 150m.

Some engine.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Very pleasing performance.

Not least for two differing reason

Firstly I actually feel we had a handful of players who didn't play particularly well - POM, Murray, Ringrose and Hansen

Secondly and absolutely crucially one of the fears, in the past, has been a lack of strength in depth
Bealham, Byrne and McCloskey have stepped up big time in their positions such that them playing is not a weakness.
In the end that just may be the biggest plus from this 6Nations

I see where ye are coming from geoff.

POM, fluffed 2 lineouts but was generally at the heart of most things good from Ireland. That said, when Conan came on he looked a different beast all together.
Murray, in danger I feel. As good as he has been in the past, I feel that Casey is ahead of him and if JGP starts, Casey should be on the bench instead of him.
Ringrose, as good as an attacker that he is, he needs to step up his defensive work. Far too many missed tackles in the first 2 games but is still a nailed on starter.
Hansen, actually thought he played well and was constantly looking for work in the midfield. Can't fault him for not scoring as Dupont is a beast and had the defending angle on him.

On the defense, Porter is another that has to work on this. He missed 6 tackles but his other work cancels that out.  

A lot of those missed tackles are due to him being the "shooter" in defense, its the nature of the game he plays. Even though some of the tackles miss, he still slows down and sometimes stops the opposition attack.

I understand that he is one of the leads in the 'Blitz' defense but if it is not something he is good at then it should be looked at. Its hard because in a defensive line, he is very good. His attacking play far out does any defensive issues anyways. I am just being picky

eirebilly_01 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Very pleasing performance.

Not least for two differing reason

Firstly I actually feel we had a handful of players who didn't play particularly well - POM, Murray, Ringrose and Hansen

Secondly and absolutely crucially one of the fears, in the past, has been a lack of strength in depth
Bealham, Byrne and McCloskey have stepped up big time in their positions such that them playing is not a weakness.
In the end that just may be the biggest plus from this 6Nations

I see where ye are coming from geoff.

POM, fluffed 2 lineouts but was generally at the heart of most things good from Ireland. That said, when Conan came on he looked a different beast all together.
Murray, in danger I feel. As good as he has been in the past, I feel that Casey is ahead of him and if JGP starts, Casey should be on the bench instead of him.
Ringrose, as good as an attacker that he is, he needs to step up his defensive work. Far too many missed tackles in the first 2 games but is still a nailed on starter.
Hansen, actually thought he played well and was constantly looking for work in the midfield. Can't fault him for not scoring as Dupont is a beast and had the defending angle on him.

On the defense, Porter is another that has to work on this. He missed 6 tackles but his other work cancels that out.  

A lot of those missed tackles are due to him being the "shooter" in defense, its the nature of the game he plays. Even though some of the tackles miss, he still slows down and sometimes stops the opposition attack.

I understand that he is one of the leads in the 'Blitz' defense but if it is not something he is good at then it should be looked at. Its hard because in a defensive line, he is very good. His attacking play far out does any defensive issues anyways. I am just being picky

But he is good at it though? As I've referred to above, just because a tackle is technically missed, doesn't mean he isn't having a big effect on the opposition attack. He's at the very least checking opposition players, getting into the eye line, etc etc. It's something that SA are very effective at too.

Fair point LF4L, maybe I am looking at it a bit too simplistically.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Very pleasing performance.

Not least for two differing reason

Firstly I actually feel we had a handful of players who didn't play particularly well - POM, Murray, Ringrose and Hansen

Secondly and absolutely crucially one of the fears, in the past, has been a lack of strength in depth
Bealham, Byrne and McCloskey have stepped up big time in their positions such that them playing is not a weakness.
In the end that just may be the biggest plus from this 6Nations

I see where ye are coming from geoff.

POM, fluffed 2 lineouts but was generally at the heart of most things good from Ireland. That said, when Conan came on he looked a different beast all together.
Murray, in danger I feel. As good as he has been in the past, I feel that Casey is ahead of him and if JGP starts, Casey should be on the bench instead of him.
Ringrose, as good as an attacker that he is, he needs to step up his defensive work. Far too many missed tackles in the first 2 games but is still a nailed on starter.
Hansen, actually thought he played well and was constantly looking for work in the midfield. Can't fault him for not scoring as Dupont is a beast and had the defending angle on him.

On the defense, Porter is another that has to work on this. He missed 6 tackles but his other work cancels that out.  

A lot of those missed tackles are due to him being the "shooter" in defense, its the nature of the game he plays. Even though some of the tackles miss, he still slows down and sometimes stops the opposition attack.

I understand that he is one of the leads in the 'Blitz' defense but if it is not something he is good at then it should be looked at. Its hard because in a defensive line, he is very good. His attacking play far out does any defensive issues anyways. I am just being picky

But he is good at it though? As I've referred to above, just because a tackle is technically missed, doesn't mean he isn't having a big effect on the opposition attack. He's at the very least checking opposition players, getting into the eye line, etc etc. It's something that SA are very effective at too.

Sarries used to use something similar for years. Farrell had woeful tackle stats but his job was to race up and pressure his opposition 10 ideally force them back inside back towards his pack. Actually making the tackle was a secondary goal to cutting off passing options and keeping the game narrow where Sarries could focus their physicality.

I thought Ireland looked pretty solid against one of the best attacking teams going.

eirebilly_01 wrote:Understand that Collapse2005 but recent form would say, to me, that I think that his bench spot is in danger and I would like to see Casey given more opportunities in the lead up to the RWC.

Fair enough

George Carlin wrote:Great statistic from Tom English at the BBC that Hugo Keenan ran for 205m in the France game.

The only other player in this round who came close to that was Duey at 150m.

Some engine.

Even grandpa Sexton ran hunched over for about 80 yards. Some going.

Probably keeps some worthers originals in his pocket for the younger lads.

geoff999rugby wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That was a great performance from Wayne Barnes too. Best ref in world rugby .

He made two very bad mistakes

Lowe's try should have been disallowed
The big fella should have got a red not a yellow

I don't think the evidence to rule out Lowe's try was conclusive enough. In similar situations we usually see the attacking team rewarded. I certainly couldn't rule it out from what I seen. 50/50 maybe.

Antonio probably should have got a red. The missed red for the swinging arm in Sco Vs Wal was worse IMO. That coupled with the Dickson breakdown view in the first week, makes this performance from Barnes another great one. Still the best ref in world rugby

Collapse2005 wrote:Thibault Flament is turning into a real quality lock

I thought he was superb in a losing cause.

I cannot remember a 6 nations game like in my all too many years. 2 fabulous sides full of physicality, pace, handling and rugby brains. A game for the ages indeed and what's best about is there's a lot of room for improvement in the Irish side. There were a few lacklustre performances that will need addressing and of course we're missing a number of nailed on starters who will have to return and earn those shirts back. I mean if Furlong and JGP are fit for Italy, which I'm sure they will be, do they simply walk onto the 1stXV? Does Farrell change the side that's proven itself against the best opposition in the 6 nations?
Anyway, it all feels a little bit alien to be world number ones and strong favourites for the championship at the very least if not the GS. I've grown to this ripe old age supporting the plucky underdogs, always feeling uneasy when we're favourites.

On the Lowe try, definately a foot in touch which for me was pretty clear but you take those calls 100% of the time. However, last week Porter was penalised for foul play in the act of a Welsh score which restarted with a Welsh penalty. Penaud in this case had his left arm tucked against his body and never wraps with it, first contact is with the left shoulder. The right arm does go out, but there's no wrap what so ever. The correct decision IMO should have been no try due to the foot in touch but penalty try and a YC awarded for the act of foul play in stopping the score. Awarding the score ended up costing us 2 points.
Also, Antonio should definitely have seen a RC. The TMO reiterated to Barnes that there was direct contact to the head and a high degree of danger. The TMO was correct, we all want a XV v XV contest but player safety is far more important than any spectacle. Barnes is a great ref but perhaps he needs to stop advertising specsavers and actually pay them a visit.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thibault Flament is turning into a real quality lock

I thought he was superb in a losing cause.

Yeah me too he is turning into one of the best locks around, maybe he is the best already. Saturday was the first time he had ever lost a game with France.

mikey_dragon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:That was a great performance from Wayne Barnes too. Best ref in world rugby .

He made two very bad mistakes

Lowe's try should have been disallowed
The big fella should have got a red not a yellow

I don't think the evidence to rule out Lowe's try was conclusive enough. In similar situations we usually see the attacking team rewarded. I certainly couldn't rule it out from what I seen. 50/50 maybe.

Antonio probably should have got a red. The missed red for the swinging arm in Sco Vs Wal was worse IMO. That coupled with the Dickson breakdown view in the first week, makes this performance from Barnes another great one. Still the best ref in world rugby

I could understand Lowes reaction on touching the ball down, everyone else celebrated but he was indicating he had no idea... I was surprised that Barnes decided to give the 'try' and then go to the TMO... it was really probably 45/55 (try to no try) but due to the question, the TMO says no clear reason to overturn.  [to note, at the time, live, I said no try so I'm talking rationale of refs here, my own view is it's a no try. we play to the laws of the game though]

The bit about Atonio that kind of narked me was how they got fascinated by the slowmo point of contact. Full speed showing of the incident made it very clear. Atonio sees an opposition front row player standing waiting for the ball, he's in his blind spot, runs a diagonal from 5-10 metres away to the relatively static Herring to deliver a thump, starting fairly vertical in contact and rising through the contact for maximum impact. If Atonio was standing in the defensive line and the momentum was from Herring charging in then I'd have said yeah a yellow card as he saw the guy coming and could get lower but was a 'passive' tackler from a force POV, however he decided the impact height, he decided the angle impact and the speed of connection, he knew Herring wasn't aware of him. If the interpretation of the law says only a yellow card then maybe World Rugby will be responsible for future healthcare issues for current players too!!



I thought it was a thoroughly entertaining game. Both teams wanted to play. I thought France didn't kick it as much as they usually do and suffered for it (are they getting flack in french media for style of play? just win baby would be my response to any of that).

France went with a huge pack again, two weeks in a row. First week it felt like 55-60 minutes gassed them - second week it felt like 50-55 minutes gassed them.

When France kicked, they kicked down the middle (classic) but their problem was Keenan/Ireland mostly would run it back, so they couldn't use their long range kicking to get a net-gain in territory and the throw to the lineout.

It was noticeable any time France were defending in their 22, every break in play had an 'injured' french playing needing assistance in order to give the pack a breather.

I think both teams had plenty of notes to improve for the RWC.