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Is it time to review the whole cards and sanctions issue?

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Post by TJ Sun 19 Mar - 22:30

First topic message reminder :

To me it is. the row over Stewards red which seems to me to be pretty cast iron under the laws and guidance but hellish harsh for what clearly was accidental / a poor split second decision highlights this. So many cards now and sometimes what is a clear red under the laws seems very harsh in the circumstances

I think its time to go to 3 levels of cards.

Yellow - same as now. I have no issues.

then a "orange" card that would be given for the dangerous but accidental things like Stewards. The team plays 20 mins a player down but then a substitute but not the offending player can come on

Red card for the deliberate foul play - the shoulder charge to the head, the trip, the tip and drive tackle, straight arm tackles etc. Sent off and th eteam plays th erest of the game a man down

It would mean the ref would have to make a subjective judgement call on whether it was deliberate or not which might be tricky

thoughts?

I also wonder about with yellow cards playing them like ice hockey in that the suspension period ends when a certain number of points has been scored or 10 mins whichever is sooner

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 25 Mar - 13:29

mountain man wrote:That's why it's crucial correct decisions are made and refs/TMOs apply common sense,
Unfortunately, it's nigh on impossible to have officials use common sense judgement, and still maintain consistency in decisions across matches. The main point of a decision-making framework, is to funnel referees towards the same conclusions, given the same set of facts. If you also want referees to use discretion about applying that framework, then you invite inconsistency.


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Post by mountain man Sat 25 Mar - 15:25

Anyone watching Saracens v Quin's? Care and Van Zyl clash very similar to Steward incident. Deemed rugby incident. Excellent reffing and TMO.

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Post by Heaf Sat 25 Mar - 16:08

Yep - thought the same thing ..

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Post by Poorfour Sat 25 Mar - 16:37

It was a rugby incident because it was a different situation, though - the ball was loose and bouncing and both players were going for it.
Pearce has been good with the card calls, but shocking in most other respects.
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Post by mountain man Sat 25 Mar - 19:02

Totally disagree there. I thought Pearce had an excellent game. Just goes to show interpretation of how we see referee performance.

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Post by Heaf Sat 25 Mar - 22:54

Poorfour wrote:It was a rugby incident because it was a different situation, though - the ball was loose and bouncing and both players were going for it.
Pearce has been good with the card calls, but shocking in most other respects.

I thought the Sarries player had gathered it just before the collision? Just like the Steward one?

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 26 Mar - 5:17

Quite a few commentators thought the Steward incident was a freak incident. One said something like "You could watch a hundred games and never see that again". The fact we've had another one so soon afterwards suggests otherwise.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun 26 Mar - 12:50

Poorfour wrote:It was a rugby incident because it was a different situation, though - the ball was loose and bouncing and both players were going for it.
Pearce has been good with the card calls, but shocking in most other respects.

Mind you the woman commentor on ITV said it was a Red
She is absolutely useless
(Nolly ?)

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 26 Mar - 13:04

Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/03/25/rugby-world-cup-could-feature-radical-red-card-upgrade-system/

World Rugby is exploring an innovative law change that would see yellow cards upgraded to reds by television officials at this year’s World Cup, Telegraph Sport understands.

The move would alter the handling of controversial dismissals such as Freddie Steward’s for England against Ireland last weekend. The governing body will come to a decision over the next two months after exploring logistical hurdles and consulting with stakeholders, including players and coaches.

There is still a way to go for the off-field upgrades to be in place at the World Cup because the system would need a wider trial, slated for the Under-20 World Championship this summer. Matches would also need an extra TMO, meaning more officials would need to be appointed and trained prior to the flagship tournament, which begins on September 8.

Telegraph Sport understands there is a growing reluctance from referees to give red cards for “grey area” incidents at the World Cup in the wake of Steward’s sending off. The new law could help reduce these instances for the on-field officials.

England’s full-back was dismissed on the verge of half-time in Dublin following a high-speed clash with Hugo Keenan in which Steward turned to protect himself and inadvertently made contact with the head of his opposite number.

Initially brought in to shorten stoppages while the on-field officials confer with their TMO, this off-field upgrade system could also ensure that red cards are not branded hastily and that teams have a better chance of keeping all 15 players on the field.

Should the World Cup adopt this law, which is being trialled in the Super Rugby Pacific competition, there will be one major change. In the Super Rugby Pacific competition, yellows have been upgraded to a 20-minute red card with the offending player replaced by a team-mate if the TMO deems the offence to be serious enough. At the World Cup, however, there would only be yellow cards or traditional, permanent red cards.

World Rugby have been enthused by initial reaction to the Super Rugby Pacific trial and would be happy to roll it out further at relatively short notice because it would not need players or coaches to make any material alterations to their World Cup preparation.

One criticism of the Super Rugby trial has been that any upgrade has not always been obvious to spectators at the ground. World Rugby will be eager to address this concern at their showpiece event.
Caleb Clarke of the Blues (right) is sent off with a red card by referee James Doleman - Rugby World Cup could feature radical red card upgrade system
Super Rugby Pacific have been trialling the law Credit: Getty Images/Fiona Goodall

A source, who officiated in this Six Nations and attended a significant World Rugby alignment meeting between international coaches and referees on Monday, revealed the incident had split opinion at the very top of the sport.

There is a growing sense that officials, as well as decision-makers at World Rugby, do not want World Cup matches to hinge on similarly divisive red cards.

“There is a feeling going into the World Cup that we clearly don’t want games decided on incidents like that when there is so much grey around it,” said the source.

“Would that [the Steward incident] be a red again? Probably not, because it splits opinion so much and is so potentially decisive in the outcome of the game.”

World Rugby is aiming to aid officials with a background “calibration process” that sees the ex-players and coaches that developed the head contact process (HCP), such as former New Zealand centre Conrad Smith and Scotland head coach Gregor Townsend, review a series of incidents every three weeks and circulate a document detailing best practice. Chris Quinlan, the head of judiciary at World Rugby, is also involved in this exercise.

However, it is understood that at this week’s meeting in Heathrow, decision-makers were split over the correct outcome in the Steward incident.
Peyper followed protocol and did not ‘pluck a card out of thin air’

The advent of the HCP, which was launched in 2021 as an evolution of the high tackle sanction framework (HTSF) designed to determine on-field sanctions, means referees must be “very bold” to adjudge an on-field collision to be deemed as “a rugby incident”.

It was stressed that Jaco Peyper followed protocol on Saturday and did not “pluck a card out of thin air”. Once the HCP is implemented by officials, a sending-off or a sin-binning are the most likely outcomes.

“As referees we need to be absolutely sure that there is no fault on behalf of the defender and that his actions were completely unavoidable to go down the ‘no foul play’ route,” suggested the source.

“A lot of us could understand the calls to go with no foul play but I’m not sure we would have been comfortable doing that because of the emphasis around protecting players’ heads.”
‘The more incidents we have in the lead-up to the World Cup, the clearer we can be on what is expected’

The source also underlined the pressure that Peyper would have been under at the Aviva Stadium, something also highlighted by the disciplinary hearing that retrospectively rescinded Steward’s sanction from a red to a yellow card.

Peyper used the phrase “in the current climate” upon explaining his decision, and it was outlined that “we all know that if a player is not in control of what they are doing, they run the risk of being penalised”.

“What we’ll find is that the more incidents we have in the lead-up to the World Cup, the clearer we can be on what is expected of our officiating,” said the source.

“With hindsight, the judgment ruled that a yellow card was sufficient but we need to acknowledge, in [the Steward] one, that it was a very rare scenario. We certainly don’t get a decision that could have three potential outcomes very often.”

The independent disciplinary committee found that Steward had committed an act of foul play, a charge that the player denied, yet downgraded the punishment due to “sufficient mitigating factors including the late change in the dynamics and positioning of the opposing player which should have resulted in the issue of a yellow card rather than a red card”.

“Rugby is so grey,” said the official. “We have around 300 tackles a game, so there would have been 4,500 over the course of the Six Nations. We’re now talking about one of them. There are going to be situations where we are putting a square peg in a round hole but hopefully, the more things crop up, the more guidance we will get. But it really did split the room completely.”

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Post by TJ Sun 26 Mar - 21:09

Very interesting

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 27 Mar - 2:44

TJ wrote:Very interesting

As the article states, the original aim of the card review system was to keep the game moving, and take lengthy decision-making off the pitch. It now seems to be regarded as a possible firebeak, to guard against the on-field referee making a hasty decision. While it seem superficially attractive, it will only work that way if the referee would have made an obvious blunder, through some kind of tunnel vision.

If this system had been in place for the Grand Slam decider, it's likely Steward would still have seen red. While Peyper had final call, the whole officiating team was in on the discussion, and no-one demurred.

The reason that incident might now draw a yellow is all down to the public response, and disciplinary panel decision. We saw that at work in the Quins-Saracens match, when this card review system played no part. An off-field official, tasked with making a decision in eight minutes, doesn't have the luxury enjoyed by a disciplinary panel, of knowing what the court of public opinion had to say about an incident.

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Post by mountain man Mon 27 Mar - 8:41

While Peyper had final call, the whole officiating team was in on the discussion, and no-one demurred.

Indeed. I'm absolutely AMAZED Marius Jonker didn't say it was only a rugby incident...no wait.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Mar - 9:01

Yeah, any system introduced will result in some mistakes, it's why there's the citing panels, which also make mistakes. The process above is fine in terms of getting the game moving but it wouldn't have seen Steward escape a red on the day and it actually runs the risk of more incorrect decisions given that it reduces the decision maker down to 1 person.

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Post by Heaf Mon 27 Mar - 12:13

If Jonker is TMO when England are playing and the decisions are left to him then expect to see a disproportionate amount of reds for England ...

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 27 Mar - 22:15

Since I believe World Rugby is neither a strong nor effective steward for our game, it doesn't surprise me that we see a knee-jerk reaction. This 'yellow - no wait - it's a red' process to me doesn't make sense. Players on the pitch and fans in the stands want to know what is going on. I can't imagine anyone wants a game when they are on tenterhooks waiting to find out if any yellow could become a red. The NFL equivalent video review process is time limited so if a decision can't be made in the given time window, then the original decision stands. And it almost never happens the time limit is reached.

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Post by Poorfour Wed 29 Mar - 20:30

In other news, World Rugby have announced that they are encouraging the unions to adopt a reduction in tackle height to beneath the sternum. The RFU said last night at one of their consultation meetings that this will apply to the Community game from next season, and will probably be implemented in the elite game shortly after the RWC.

https://www.world.rugby/keep-rugby-clean/news/790960/lower-tackle-height-at-the-heart-of-plans-to-enhance-community-rugby-experience
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Post by doctor_grey Thu 30 Mar - 13:22

Poorfour wrote:In other news, World Rugby have announced that they are encouraging the unions to adopt a reduction in tackle height to beneath the sternum. The RFU said last night at one of their consultation meetings that this will apply to the Community game from next season, and will probably be implemented in the elite game shortly after the RWC.

https://www.world.rugby/keep-rugby-clean/news/790960/lower-tackle-height-at-the-heart-of-plans-to-enhance-community-rugby-experience
Personally, I think that will be difficult to judge the height properly. I would rather see the height set at or below the armpits. Easier to judge and easier to target for a defender. Below that, to me, is an over-reaction. Do you think the RFU is just spit-balling ideas or do you think this is a serious plan?

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Post by Poorfour Thu 30 Mar - 14:45

doctor_grey wrote:
Poorfour wrote:In other news, World Rugby have announced that they are encouraging the unions to adopt a reduction in tackle height to beneath the sternum. The RFU said last night at one of their consultation meetings that this will apply to the Community game from next season, and will probably be implemented in the elite game shortly after the RWC.

https://www.world.rugby/keep-rugby-clean/news/790960/lower-tackle-height-at-the-heart-of-plans-to-enhance-community-rugby-experience
Personally, I think that will be difficult to judge the height properly.  I would rather see the height set at or below the armpits.  Easier to judge and easier to target for a defender.  Below that, to me, is an over-reaction.  Do you think the RFU is just spit-balling ideas or do you think this is a serious plan?

There was a lot of debate about exactly that. The trouble is that "below the armpits" hasn't (according to the data) reduced the number of concussions when it's been implemented, because (I hypothesised and the RFU didn't contradict) it still encourages people to try to wrap the arms, and when that happens the risk of the tackler sliding up is still high. Also, the separation of heads isn't that large.

Below the sternum forces the tackler to aim waist high or below. We also discussed how refs will handle it and the refs in the room were all in agreement that they would be looking at it in safety terms rather than trying to apply a line with millimetric precision. They're going to look at whether both players were in legal positions going into the tackle, and then whether the tackle completed at a safe level. The focus won't be on "did that hit the second rib or the third one?" but on "was the separation of heads materially smaller than it should have been?"

The expectation was that we'd see a spike in penalties which would subside, but that the number of yellows, reds and head contacts should drop significantly.

And from the RFU's (and WR's) perspective, this is the outcome of 7 years of research and trials - the changes are going to happen, and the discussion is only about how best to define them and roll them out so that they drive the required behaviour change.
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