Ireland 2023/24 - RWC and Onwards

First topic message reminder :

So another season is over, and we're getting ready for Andy Farrell's announcement this coming week for his initial RWC squad that will be used in upcoming warm-up games against Italy (5 Aug) , England (19 Aug) both in Aviva, and then a whittled down finalised RWC squad to play Samoa in France on 26 Aug.

The U20s RWC kicks off in South Africa in July.

After Munster's well-deserved win against Stormers, Farrell & Co may have paused for thought as to who comes into the wider squad beyond the nailed-on members. The 42 man RWC Training Squad announced is:

Forwards (22)

Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)
Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)
Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere)
Gavin Coombes (Munster/Young Munster)
Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf)
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)
Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians)
Joe McCarthy (Leinster/Dublin University)
Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD)
Cian Prendergast (Connacht/Corinthians)
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)
Dan Sheehan (Leinster/Lansdowne)
Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)*
Kieran Treadwell (Ulster/Ballymena)
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)

Backs (20)

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians)
Caolin Blade (Connacht/Galwegians)
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD)
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)
Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)
Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster)
Ciaran Frawley (Leinster/UCD)*
Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster)
Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians)
Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD)
James Lowe (Leinster)
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)
Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)
Calvin Nash (Munster/Young Munster)*
Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas)
Jamie Osborne (Leinster/Naas)*
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College)
Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan)

Thanks again KC, I'm going to the Georgia/Aussie game at St Denis and needs a primer even if I won't be able to remember, let alone pronounce, any of the names. All I need now is an obliging Georgian on the way into the stadium to teach how to shout "Come on you Georgians" in Georgian.

Not complaining but how did the Ireland thread get hi-jacked by the Georgians?

I was at the Aus-Georgia game in 2019 out in Japan. An absolutely fantastic day out in a not far off full stadium for that sort of game a bit out the way. Two of our friends were Aussies so we of course supported Georgia vociferously.

Instead of heading back to Shizouka afterwards like the smart fans we decided to book a beach house off the beaten path. As all the other fans jumped on a short train back to a station that the bullet train passed through, we were boarding a much older train heading off into the middle of nowhere. We felt less ingenious at this stage.

When we arrived it was a truly deserted beach town. It turned out that a developer had tried to build this place up to be a resort and no one came, so it had largely fallen derelict. We were just out of uni and had researched well as you can tell. There was, and I promise this isn't made up, even an abandoned playground with a Ferris wheel creakily turning in the wind. Comparisons to Chernobyl were made whilst we mocked the friend that booked, even though we all agreed that a beach house was a brilliant plan. In the end we arrived at a cracking house, had a beach to ourselves and two of the best days you could hope for with 5 great friends. We even had one of the best meals I've ever had in a gas station. An elderly couple ran it, making ramen and gyoza. It was sublime. Being a chef at the time I've blown my share of wages and tips eating out too. Truly one of the most memorable food experiences I've had. A brilliant part of the trip that was even cut short by the landlord informing us we'd have to leave a day early but could head to accommodation he'd provided in Shizouka as the Typhoon was incoming. Typhoon Hagibis. Which of course became Typhoon Haggis to most Brits out there for the RWC. It was spectacular few weeks.

Further update on Sheehan and Kelleher says that both are improving quicker than expected. Kelleher won't play against Samoa this weekend but should be good to go for the first pool match against Romania. Similarly, Sheehan's more positive prognosis is that he may be ready for the third pool match against South Africa in 4 weeks time. Farrell will provide a more definitive medical update today at his press conference and announcement of squad to play Samoa in Bayonne.

If this prognosis remains the case, then Farrell may only choose 3 hookers, as other players have been practising throwing, including the 9s, and Cian Healy could be the back-up hooker if required.

15. Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster/Naas)(6)
14. Mack Hansen (Connacht/Corinthians)(15)
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers)(64)
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor)(13)
11. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster)(100)
10. Jack Crowley (Munster/Cork Constitution)(5)
9. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen)(106)

1. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf)(124)
2. Tom Stewart (Ulster/Ballynahinch)(1)
3. Finlay Bealham (Connacht/Buccaneers)(31)
4. Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy)(captain)(73)
5. Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne)(40)
6. Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University)(12)
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD)(51)
8. Caelan Doris (Leinster/St Mary’s College)(30)

Replacements:

16. Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch)(36)
17. Jeremy Loughman (Munster/Garryowen)(2)
18. Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch)(10)
19. James Ryan (Leinster/UCD)(54)
20. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution)(95)
21. Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon)(11)
22. Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD)(20)
23. Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD)(51).

Looking at this team I would say Stockdale isn't on the plane

If stockdale was going he'd be on the bench at least.
I like the 2nd row and back row combo too.

Frawley out aswell by the looks of it.

Looks like Earls and McCloskey are getting a chance to confirm their places against Samoa.

Of the 5 extra players in the current 38 squad, it looks like Stockdale and utility Frawley will be dropped in favour of Earls and utility player O'Brien. Frawley might still sneak it instead of the single-position McCloskey depending on how the Ulsterman plays on Saturday.

Prendergast may be another omission in the backrow stocks, along with fifth lock Joe McCarthy, with Ryan Baird being used as a lock/backrow option.

Does Stewart still get to go as a fourth hooker as it now looks like Kelleher and Sheehan will travel and be ready for the first and third pool matches respectively?

Jeremy Loughman may yet replace Kilcoyne at loosehead, depending on the latter's injury recovery, but the Nevada-born prop hasn't started any of the warm-up matches, and looks set to be another to stay behind on standby.

I think McCloskey is going - Henshaw not at his best and needed as backup 13, Ringrose needed as possible wing cover, and Aki always liable to a card.

Frawley is a fine player but do we really need a 4th fly half and a 3rd full back - dont think so

geoff999rugby wrote:I think McCloskey is going - Henshaw not at his best and needed as backup 13, Ringrose needed as possible wing cover, and Aki always liable to a card.

Frawley is a fine player but do we really need a 4th fly half and a 3rd full back - dont think so

Fair points, Geoff. One could also argue whether we really need a 3rd dedicated inside centre given Henshaw's and Aki's abilities/experience at both 12 & 13, and where Frawley has also played as well as 10 and 15? McCloskey could be a stand-by if injury knocks one of the regular 3 out.

Could Frawley's utility role trump McCloskey when it comes to who goes on the plane. Big Stu is a superb and more than capable 12, there's no doubt about that but does Farrell value flexibility as Schmidt did or will he go for what Geoff has suggested. The 6 nations did show that we need world class 13 cover which Aki is not. Henshaw is the answer there more than anyone on the squad. Big Stu wins if that's the case and I sincerely hope that's the case.

I still think Ireland will get get out of the pool with relative ease but that's as far as they'll go. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong but to face France or NZ right now ends your tournament whoever you are IMO. If anyone can beat either of them it's Ireland but I don't see it just now. Please make sure I'm wrong.

Also McCloskey is a decent goal kicker. Well he was, not sure if he's still practicing, but looking at how Farrell has had the 9s practicing throwing in I think he would have every decent goal kicker practicing aswell.

Pete330v2 wrote:Could Frawley's utility role trump McCloskey when it comes to who goes on the plane. Big Stu is a superb and more than capable 12, there's no doubt about that but does Farrell value flexibility as Schmidt did or will he go for what Geoff has suggested. The 6 nations did show that we need world class 13 cover which Aki is not. Henshaw is the answer there more than anyone on the squad. Big Stu wins if that's the case and I sincerely hope that's the case.

I still think Ireland will get get out of the pool with relative ease but that's as far as they'll go. Hopefully they'll prove me wrong but to face France or NZ right now ends your tournament whoever you are IMO. If anyone can beat either of them it's Ireland but I don't see it just now. Please make sure I'm wrong.

I'd be shocked if Frawley was on the plane, he's a great player but he hasn't played enough rugby this year and is injury prone.

I'd be also shocked if Stockdale made it. His form is quite simply dire and you're just waiting for him to make a calamitous mistake which costs the team. It's such a shame as he was one of the form wingers in Europe in 2018.

South Africa are firing some warning shot to their group opponents this evening. Did you see it?

Yup
New Zealand looked like they had been partying for the last fortnight. Forwards blowing out of their derriers after 10 minutes.
Horrible, deep gash to Tyrel Lomax' s right knee from a stray boot.
Don't see how he will be fit for the France game.
Scott Barrett double yellow, although the second one was not upgraded to red, even though he flew off his feet and hit a prostate Marx with a shoulder directly to the head at a ruck.
Not sure if double yellow ( leading to a red) gets an automatic ban or not.

Ominous is a word I'd use

Barrett got a red for that before too, was it against Ireland or France? He’s one of the all blacks’ top forwards along with Retalick, the other locks are okay. The NZ forwards were second best by far, even their big front row didn’t make a difference.

Irelands away jersey isnt great

Conditions ain't helping but Stewarts darts haven't been the best

Maine man wrote:Conditions ain't helping but Stewarts darts haven't been the best

Very poor from Ireland so far

SA will go to number 1 in the world if Samoa win, looks kind of likely.

Hmmm - looked a tad offside there ...

Samoa are playing some fantastic rugby then making the error. I fear they need to make one stick soon before fatigue sets in. Ringrose, Ryan and POM are three quality players for Ireland to launch off the bench.

Ryan and POM arrive as I type!

Ross Byrne looks like he's been to Ronan O'Gara School of Tackling this summer. Not the only one I may add

Is it me or does Henshaw look decidedly off the pace since his injuries this season?

Ryan making an immediate impact there. Samoa looking a bit tired whilst Ireland turn the screw.

Barnes is reffing this incredibly well, he’s the best ref in world rugby.

Very disappointing, terrible performance

Samoa were close to a famous win there but blew it. Work to do for Ireland but I’m sure they’ll get better.

Would have liked to see Conor Murray's try looked at for potential off-side ... could have made a big difference ...

I think McFarland was played in the air there to be honest but it's such a smart professional foul if so. Worse case scenario it's a pen, they put it back in the corner, you're back where you are before the gamble. Best case, you get a turnover. No ref is giving a card for it! A typically astute call in defence from Ryan.

So close yet so far for Samoa. They had two golden chances at the end but couldn't quite convert. It's a side packed full of firepower but they are noticeably smarter as well for the additions such as Sopoaga and Luatua. The rise of McFarland helps as well, he's a superb player. Taufua's carrying when he came of was absolutely brutal.

I was well aware of Seuteni's qaulity at 13 but I hadn't see as much of Tumua Manu at 12 who also impressed me. Duncan Paia'aua looked decent at 15 too considering he's usually a centre.

Very impressed with the PIs and tier 2 rugby in general this window. World rugby has done a great job bringing on these nations with the elegiblity rule changes and the creation of numerous new pro and semi pro sides. The gap seems to be closing, the only worry is how far backwards Japan and perhaps the USA have gone despite their leagues going pro.

Well I don't think that performance played anyone into a place in the squad. Stewart has a lot learn at international level and I was surprised how inaccurate the line out was despite him playing with Henderson, although I suppose given how rarely Hendo actually plays for Ulster maybe I was over-estimating the familiarity. McCloskey didn't do anything to scream "pick me" and Stockdale was the same as he has been for most of the season, sufficient mistakes to out weigh the good moments. And this is from an Ulster supporter.

I hope Healy injury isn't serious, but it looked bad. O'Brien seemed to have a shoulder problem but hopefully nothing too significant.

The weather looked atrocious, and I don't think that helped, but there can be no over-confidence after that game.

Forwards (18)

Hookers: Rob Herring (Ulster), Ronan Kelleher (Leinster), Dan Sheehan (Leinster)

Props: Finlay Bealham (Connacht), Tadhg Furlong (Leinster), Jeremy Loughman (Munster), Dave Kilcoyne (Munster), Tom O’Toole (Ulster), Andrew Porter (Leinster).

Locks: Ryan Baird (Leinster), Tadhg Beirne (Munster), Iain Henderson (Ulster), Joe McCarthy (Leinster), James Ryan (Leinster).


Backrows: Jack Conan (Leinster), Caelan Doris (Leinster), Peter O’Mahony (Munster), Josh van der Flier (Leinster).

Backs (15)

Scrumhalves: Craig Casey (Munster), Jamison Gibson-Park (Leinster), Conor Murray (Munster).

Outhalves: Ross Byrne (Leinster), Jack Crowley (Munster), Jonathan Sexton (Leinster).

Centres: Bundee Aki (Connacht), Robbie Henshaw (Leinster), Stuart McCloskey (Ulster), Garry Ringrose (Leinster).

Outside backs: Keith Earls (Munster), Mack Hansen (Connacht), Hugo Keenan (Leinster), James Lowe (Leinster), Jimmy O’Brien (Leinster).

Glad McCloskey made it, no real surprises in my view.
Sad for Healy though.

Great to see McCloskey making it, and showing me wrong, again. Very disappointing for Healy, let's hope Kilcoyne and Loughman can step up. Let's hope all the other niggles and injuries heal up.

I can see Stewart being called up after two rounds. Bringing 2 injured hookers in the squad isn't smart.
I'd have Prendergast instead of Joe McCarthy. I'd also have Coombes instead of Conan.

JGP gets the start, Murray crowds out Casey.
Crowley should be on the bench for the big games behind Sexton.
I just hope we don't end up in a position where Earls is left in no mans land to defend any quick SA wingers. Experience is great and defensive reads should cover most events, but elder statesmen on the wing... age gets done in by speed in the end.

Kelleher isnt injured anymore though. Farrell said if it was a knock out game v Samoa Kelleher could have played as he is training but they just didnt want to rush him back. He will be definitely ready for Romania. Farrell also said that Sheehan will likely be ready for Romania too. I think its a fairly low risk strategy bringing those guys to be honest. We are very lucky at hooker as Herring as third choice is probably just as good as the other two. Maybe Kelleher is third choice these days.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I can see Stewart being called up after two rounds. Bringing 2 injured hookers in the squad isn't smart.

This doesn't make sense. If Kelleher was injured then how could be play in the first two matches? Sheehan is recovering better than expected, and with Healy out, they don't have a fourth choice/stand-in hooker to have in the squad. More likely that Sheehan is recovering quicker and could get some gametime in the second match against Tonga to prepare for SA in round three.

Collapse2005 wrote:Kelleher isnt injured anymore though. Farrell said if it was a knock out game v Samoa Kelleher could have played as he is training but they just didnt want to rush him back. He will be definitely ready for Romania. Farrell also said that Sheehan will likely be ready for Romania too. I think its a fairly low risk strategy bringing those guys to be honest. We are very lucky at hooker as Herring as third choice is probably just as good as the other two. Maybe Kelleher is third choice these days.

Herring as good as Sheehan? . Stewart unfortunately didn't take his chance against Samoa. I wouldn't hold it against him too much though, very tough conditions. I do wonder if his physicality is upto it on the international stage.

Well maybe not but Herring is very good and he has been involved in some very big moments for Ireland over the last couple of years. I wouldn't be nervous of him starting v SA for example. He is also our most experienced hooker.

I dont think the final 33 was in any real doubt.

My view is Loughman, Stewart and Frawley were only there as injury cover.
As it turned out one of them was needed.
It was always going to be Prendergast or McCarthy
It was always one of McCloskey, Earls and Stockdale to be left out.
I suspect Henshaw's poor form helped secure McCloskey his place.

Someone mentioned Aki as a 13 - you must be joking he hasn't got a clue how to defend at 13

An interesting post if only because I disagree on about every point  

thebandwagonsociety wrote:  I can see Stewart being called up after two rounds. Bringing 2 injured hookers in the squad isn't smart.

As others have noted we are not starting with two injured hookers but one and he will be fit before the serious opposition.
We have three hookers who are streets ahead of the rest they simply had to go.
Stewart will be a fine player but he is nowhere near ready for this level, Barron isn't good enough

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'd have Prendergast instead of Joe McCarthy.

I wouldn't.
Beirne and Baird provide extra backrow cover.
McCarthy has outperformed Prendergast in the warm ups and clearly has a higher ceiling

thebandwagonsociety wrote: I'd also have Coombes instead of Conan.

I wouldn't.
Pick a player nearly 26 who has only played a full match against USA and and 10 mins against Japan over a British & Irish Lion would be a terrible decision.
In Farrell's eyes he is behind Prendergast as well
I'll go out on a limb here and say I don't think Coombes will play much International rugby in his career.
He reminds me of Jack O'Donoghue, Roger Wilson and Denis Buckley - great Provincial player but lacks the top two inches of skill required for the very top.
None of the four have ever played against a top team.

thebandwagonsociety wrote: gets the start, Murray crowds out Casey.
Crowley should be on the bench for the big games behind Sexton.

I just hope we don't end up in a position where Earls is left in no mans land to defend any quick SA wingers. Experience is great and defensive reads should cover most events, but elder statesmen on the wing... age gets done in by speed in the end.  

Trouble is no one else has put their hand up to replace him.
Stockdale, Balacoune, Nash and Larmour have all come up short in performance and/or experience

As the RWC rapidly approaches, the more concerned I am for Irelands chances. Sadly I have this horrible feeling that Ireland wont get past the group stages...

eirebilly_01 wrote:As the RWC rapidly approaches, the more concerned I am for Irelands chances. Sadly I have this horrible feeling that Ireland wont get past the group stages...

Are you confusing group stages with the QF? As that would make sense.

mikey_dragon wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:As the RWC rapidly approaches, the more concerned I am for Irelands chances. Sadly I have this horrible feeling that Ireland wont get past the group stages...

Are you confusing group stages with the QF? As that would make sense.

A couple of pundits are tipping Scotland to do a number on Ireland. If Ireland also lose to the Boks, then they are likely out. There's a scenario where they beat the Boks but still go out on bonus points/points difference. While Ireland are also very capable of winning both those matches, it's not inconceivable that they don't.

Rugby Fan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:As the RWC rapidly approaches, the more concerned I am for Irelands chances. Sadly I have this horrible feeling that Ireland wont get past the group stages...

Are you confusing group stages with the QF? As that would make sense.

A couple of pundits are tipping Scotland to do a number on Ireland. If Ireland also lose to the Boks, then they are likely out. There's a scenario where they beat the Boks but still go out on bonus points/points difference. While Ireland are also very capable of winning both those matches, it's not inconceivable that they don't.

Well you know that famous saying; sticks and stones may break my bones, but Ireland have never made it passed a QF! Kinda what I was getting at.

I expect that they'll get beyond the quarters this year.

eirebilly_01 wrote:As the RWC rapidly approaches, the more concerned I am for Irelands chances. Sadly I have this horrible feeling that Ireland wont get past the group stages...

I think I have written before, for me in this pool there is a real chance that South Africa, Ireland & Scotland could all take one win off each other, which would make BP's & scoring points over the other 2 sides all important.

Oakdene wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:As the RWC rapidly approaches, the more concerned I am for Irelands chances. Sadly I have this horrible feeling that Ireland wont get past the group stages...

I think I have written before, for me in this pool there is a real chance that South Africa, Ireland & Scotland could all take one win off each other, which would make BP's & scoring points over the other 2 sides all important.

+1 - a team failing to score 4 tries against Tonga could be going home

Well the whole Ireland havent gotten out of the quarters stick to beat us with doesnt mention much that Ireland have never faced a tier two team in the quarters whereas plenty of other sides have. South Africa for example for all three of their world cup wins have faced tier two sides in the quarters, Samoa 95, Fiji 2007, Japan 2019. There is a bit of luck involved in how the draw falls albeit obviously if you win your group in theory you face a weaker side.