3rd QF England v Fiji - Stade de Marseille

First topic message reminder :

England: 15. Marcus Smith 14. Jonny May  13. Joe Marchant  12. Manu Tuilagi  11. Elliot Daly 10. Owen Farrell (c)9. Alex Mitchell 1. Ellis Genge 2. Jamie George 3. Dan Cole 4. Maro Itoje 5. Ollie Chessum 6. Courtney Lawes 7. Tom Curry 8. Ben Earl

Replacements: 16. Theo Dan  17. Joe Marler  18. Kyle Sinckler 19. George Martin  20. Billy Vunipola  21. Danny Care  22. George Ford  23. Ollie Lawrence  

Fiji: 1. Eroni Mawi 2. Tevita Ikanivere 3. Luke Tagi 4. Isoa Nasilasila 5. Albert Tuisue 6. Lekima Tagitagivalu 7. Levani Botia 8. Viliame Mata 9. Frank Lomani 10. Vilimoni Botitu 11. Semi Radradra 12. Josua Tuisova 13. Waisea Nayacalevu (c) 14. Vinaya Habosi 15. Ilaisa Droasese

Replacements: 16. Samuel Matavesi 17. Peni Ravai 18. Mesake Doge 19. Meli Derenalagi 20. Vilive Miramira 21. Simione Kuruvoli 22. Iosefo Masi 23. Sireli Maqala

Referee: Mathieu Raynal TMO: Ben Whitehouse

Assistant referees: Nic Berry (Australia) and Pierre Broussett (France)

Completely agree. But he's the best big lock currently available.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely agree. But he's the best big lock currently available.

might as well pair Jonny Hill with Charlie Ewels.

Path to world domination

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyway positivity king. What's your plus points from the end of Eddie's reign up to now?

I think the lineout generally has improved a lot. It will have off days as all lineouts can. Even Ireland's well drilled unit s**t the bed early on against the Boks. It has certainly trended up though. The lineout defence has been consistently good. Which is one of those areas of the game that only really get noticed if it goes badly but wins matches.

The scrum has also improved. The best retention in the Six Nations of any side and solid so far in the RWC. There's a lingering view with some that a scrum can only be strong if regularly winning penalties but realistically only the Boks do this frequently now. Winning penalties against the head is rare even for them. That's how scrums have trended with shifts in how they're reffed. I think that props getting bigger and two props on the bench has generally removed the mismatches that tended to bring about the occasional huge scrum advantage previously. The shift to two props on the bench happened a long while back but we still had jack of all trades, master of none for a time after. Whereas basically all props now have played their career as specialists. High retention on your own ball and low penalty count on opposition is a strong scrum now. That's where England have trended with Borthwick after having such a poor scrum at the end of EJs tenure.

The defence and discipline are much better too. I do have doubts about such a narrow defence working consistently against the best. I also don't mind a defence starting at an extreme and building from there. As long as that evolution comes then I'm happy with plan A being to throw a lot of resources at stopping carriers closer the ruck.

This Boks side basically did that. They started with a very aggressive and narrow blitz but could be caught out if sides got around it. They've then basically built in layer after layer of safeguards. They are now the masters of the inside defender staying in the game when the ball gets past them now. So they can blitz like maniacs without being caught out either side of it. The job Kolisi now does at defensive lineouts is incredible for this. He will start covering peel moves off the back of the lineout, then push insanely fast out to cover the first receiver, allowing de Allende to drift rather than hold for runners aimed at 10, then if still not engaged in the play he can drop back and basically becomes a sweeper so the winger can defend high. It's a nuts work rate.

England are obviously nowhere near that. The Boks system wasn't early on either though. They started with something simple and developed it over time, in response to how teams try to counter the blitz.

As mentioned many times I also think that England's backfield structure is smart and with better execution of kicks could develop into a strength. The kicking has been inconsistent but our wingers also not very strong. If Watson can get fit on one wing and someone such as Murley or Freeman develop on the other then hopefully that will help. The tactical shift there has potential IMO though.

The attack is obviously non existent. The ruck retention, ruck speed and delivery to 9 needs to improve out of sight. This isn't a defence of Youngs before you blow a gasket, but, all 4 SHs who have started for England under Borthwick have had utter shockers following Mitchell last week. I don't think that's a coincidence even if two of the four 9s are past it and the other two are inexperienced. That poor retention is likely a product of the attack lacking threat though. It gives them abject ball to work with.

I also don't think setups building a set-piece, defence and kicking strategy then evolving an attack afterwards is unusual though.

Always appreciate your analysis. The only thing lineput defence wise is I think we should challenge opposition ball a bit more. Given the 3 locks on the pitch we rarely look to steal.

I think there's a heavy element of how the lineout gets reffed in whether teams compete currently. It's not uncommon to see a team start by competing, then decide it's futile. Or vice versa.

Hookers waiting for the lineout to setup, taking a step towards their jumpers and throwing 'straight' but straight down one side of the lineout is becoming more common. If the ref doesn't stop it then you can only challenge by jumping across the gap, risking contact in the air. It's a good example.

Some refs just aren't hot on squint throws more simply. Others are hypervigilant on lifters blocking the jumper whilst setting a maul. Etc etc.

I think there are circumstances where competing actually adds relatively little chance of stealing but massively weakens maul defence. When I did analysis on Tigers lineout under Borthwick they frequently used the 'funnelling' technique. Whereby they'd use their three jumpers (Hanro Liebenberg is a superb back row jumper) to triple mark the middle of the lineout. The aim wasn't to contest as frequently but funnel throws to the front (massively cuts attacking options) or the tail (high risk and they could set to sack). If done well this technique often forces attacking teams to cut numbers. Which significantly improves retention but equally reduces the platform.

I honestly haven't done analysis on England during the RWC. I've gradually done less and less of it over recent years. The lineout, such as Tigers under Borthwick, was the last area I bothered with. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they are doing something similar.

Chessum, Itoje and Lawes are elite jumping options even as international rugby goes. The list of guys notably better than all three of them at getting off the ground quickly is small. Lood would be one. Certainly Woki. James Ryan is exceptional there. Retallick at one point but probably not now. Some might snort at it as he's lesser know, but Uruguay's Manuel Leindekar is one of the best in the world there. It's a small list though.

Sarries and then England used to compete hard in the air with Kruis in particular. Refs were far less stringent on contact in the air then though. If defensive jumpers didn't get the ball they would basically grab the opposition jumper as they were brought to ground. It was just standard practice that refs allowed for a while. The defending jumper would grab them, try to sack the 'ball carrier' as they hit the ground or at least would make setting the maul harder by landing between a lifter and their jumper. It was a blatant infringement but got ignored for a while. Kruis was brilliant at competing in the air but staying in the game if he didn't win the ball. Refs really cracked down on contact in the air soon after blocking by lifters was looked at harder. They needed to depower the maul as it was getting unstoppable. The early crackdowns all looked at the attacking lineout, which depowered it but created a mess. Then they looked at contact in the air to get a cleaner contest. The aim being attacking sides being able to use it as a weapon to launch phase moves, rather than mauling. I'd say it's worked via a messy, winding road.

The shenanigans from hookers needs looking at though IMO. Not straight throws. Stepping towards their jumpers after the lineout is set. Just blatantly standing infield. It's becoming the new feeding in the scrum.

It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

But not tonight

broadlandboy wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

 But not tonight

I don't understand.

king_carlos wrote:

The shenanigans from hookers needs looking at though IMO. Not straight throws. Stepping towards their jumpers after the lineout is set. Just blatantly standing infield. It's becoming the new feeding in the scrum.

Yep this one really gets my goat as it's so blatant and you can see it means the jumpers catch the ball without even reaching across so it's clearly not a contest - why refs ignore it is a mystery ....

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

It was a major major choke from Ireland if we're going to be brutal here. This Ireland side don't allow NZ to play like that under normal circumstances.....the occasion got to them. It's going to be a very tough 4 years for that group of players knowing they've let themselves and their country down.

Well NZ been my pick for RWC all along so my virtual tenner still going strong.
One thing that did occur was the standard England are is a million miles away from what we saw last night.
If England do win today, that's it unless something very odd happens

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

It was a major major choke from Ireland if we're going to be brutal here. This Ireland side don't allow NZ to play like that under normal circumstances.....the occasion got to them. It's going to be a very tough 4 years for that group of players knowing they've let themselves and their country down.

That's a bit harsh! They lost a game of rugby, albeit a massive one but to say they let themselves and country down is a bit strong.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

It was a major major choke from Ireland if we're going to be brutal here. This Ireland side don't allow NZ to play like that under normal circumstances.....the occasion got to them. It's going to be a very tough 4 years for that group of players knowing they've let themselves and their country down.

I think it's fricken hilarious....thought they'd already won it.

Maybe stay off the rose next time

mountain man wrote:Well NZ been my pick for RWC all along so my virtual tenner still going strong.
One thing that did occur was the standard England are is a million miles away from what we saw last night.
If England do win today, that's it unless something very odd happens

Well, as we all know, it's a funny shaped ball.  And. it's possible players not named Owen Farrell can make a no-arms tackle and take a Red Card.  The clear path to the final against Argentina.  And we know how that worked out the last time.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

It was a major major choke from Ireland if we're going to be brutal here. This Ireland side don't allow NZ to play like that under normal circumstances.....the occasion got to them. It's going to be a very tough 4 years for that group of players knowing they've let themselves and their country down.

Pooly don't think you understand what to "choke" is in sporting terms.
To choke is to not play to your individual or collective ability, such as a golfer in the lead of an open on the last day repeatedly missing 3ft puts, or a team leading the league with 5 games to play losing all of them while playing massively under their potential.
Last night's game was two high quality performances with one just being better than the other.
Were there some individual mistakes? Yes from both sides, but to class Ireland as choking is far from it, and quite possibly says a lot more about your own insecurities than anything else.

Anyway good luck to England today. Play to your potential and you should win

carpet baboon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

It was a major major choke from Ireland if we're going to be brutal here. This Ireland side don't allow NZ to play like that under normal circumstances.....the occasion got to them. It's going to be a very tough 4 years for that group of players knowing they've let themselves and their country down.

Pooly don't think you understand what to "choke" is in sporting terms.
To choke is to not play to your individual or collective ability, such as a golfer in the lead of an open on the last day repeatedly missing 3ft puts, or a team leading the league with 5 games to play losing all of them while playing massively under their potential.
Last night's game was two high quality performances with one just being better than the other.
Were there some individual mistakes? Yes from both sides, but to class Ireland as choking is far from it, and quite possibly says a lot more about your own insecurities than anything else.

Anyway good luck to England today. Play to your potential and you should win

I perfectly understand the terms thanks.....and I'm fine with my insecurities, although less fine with you taking a personal dig at me over a comment about Ireland choking.

Which part of the performance do you think they choked with? Thought they played well personally but just lost kn the day.

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a bit off an underline effect today. For me the second best team of the world dumped put at the qf. The potential for the best tomorrow (France) to follow.

I know. I really wanted Ireland to win because they have been the better team for a while, and I don't think this version of the AB's is up there with their best, but they did pull off an incredible performance to win. Not checked in yet but looking forward to watching the meltdown as compensation for Ireland losing.

It was a major major choke from Ireland if we're going to be brutal here. This Ireland side don't allow NZ to play like that under normal circumstances.....the occasion got to them. It's going to be a very tough 4 years for that group of players knowing they've let themselves and their country down.

That's a bit harsh! They lost a game of rugby, albeit a massive one but to say they let themselves and country down is a bit strong.

I don't think it is MM. All the talk throughout the year has been about Ireland and how good they and only potentially France stood in their way. Then this week....how few NZ players would get close to this incredible Irish side. Ireland generally choke (the irony...) sides into submission with brutal defence and physicality, what happened? They made NZ look much better than they actually are at times I thought.

Just realised I'm not really on the right thread for this!

The Ireland thing is a useful distraction from our own failings.

I do wonder if they have been a little too successful. A loss - during the 6N for instance - might have sharpened things up a little when things really mattered. NZ were bloody good though. I didn't think that this version of the AB's had it in them but from the Haka they looked liked they were really up for this. Ireland at their best are relentless and have a suffocating style that grinds their opponents down. They never got that kind of control over NZ. I'd also add that individually I am not sure if they hit the heights they have shown in the past, Aki aside who was absolutely fantastic.

Back on the England vs Fiji game...

Fiji notably have a couple of second row absentees. Tuisue filling in as a starter. Meli Delenaragi and Vilivi Miramira are on the bench who have never played lock. One of their lesser heralded in the tournament in Lekima Tagitagivalu has played a decent amount of lock for Pau so will presumably cover. He's been terrific for them in the loose this tournament alongside the world class Botia and resurgent Mata in the back row. They are really depleted at lock though.

Matavesi also drops to the bench after the sad passing of his father meant he returned to the UK during the week. He's been a key part of their lineout when it clicks. I'd say England will target that area.

In the backline they now have Botitu at 10 who has only started three professional games at FH. Tela is also unavailable on top of the hammer blow that was losing Caleb Muntz. This Fiji team with Muntz would have been significantly better than the very good rugby we've seen from there. It was a crying shame he got injured pretournament. Botitu is a quality 12 but inexperienced at 10, was there in the loss to Portugal. SH Simi Kuruvoli, who's had a cracking tournament at 9, will presumably cover from the bench if needed.

Selestino Ravautaumada has been left out again as a selection call it seems. Radrada shifting to the wing and Habosi being another game breaking runner on the other. Personally, I'd always start Ravautaumada. I think he's a terrific all round winger and still very good going forward.

Skipper Nayacalevu is playing but picked up a knee injury that seemed to hinder him late against Portugal. He's been colossal for Fiji this tournament. Hopefully he's fully fit as he knits their defence together as well as being a brilliant attacking runner.

With respect to Fiji, I think if they were playing a side I didn't support then I might feel they are looking a bit ragged due to key injuries after a brilliant start to the tournament. As they are playing a team I support and are still stacked with brilliant runners I remain fairly wary of what they can do in a flash.

A key area of their game that shouldn't be damaged by injuries will be the breakdown. Botia is one of the best around at stealing turnovers. He's incredible at it. They have further threats across their pack and backline though. England's protection of their ruck ball in attack has largely been dismal. If they continue with that then Fiji will still be capable of cutting the game loose

If England remain disciplined and play a tight game they should win this by 15+. The worst thing would be to get sucked into a loose 7s style game then it could get a little hairy

Yep agreed. England basically need to stick to the same old boring stuff and that'll do it. I'm not joking either.
Assuming they do win, the same old boring stuff definitely won't be enough in SF but perhaps worry about that post final whistle today.

Fair few empty seats then.

Looks pretty full to me.

Botia in straight away with an early turnover.

I thought he was off feet but hard to see from pictures

No clear release there either

And Lawes off his feet too so pretty consistent.

Ref allowing a complete mess ...

If the ref allows it get stuck in

Pretty decent mauls so far.

Fiji changed their bind at that maul too ... ref seems a bit lax on lots at the moment

Manu looking strong so far, couple carries and a try

8-0 after 14. Typically fast English start, now they need to maintain it and not switch off.

I honestly though Mitchell knocked that on at the previous breakdown but England had the advantage.

It's a good passage of play there. Itoje smartly setting the maul at the restart even though he wasn't lifted. Execute that well for field position. Strong carry by Genge to get on the front foot. Good kick from Mitchell and chase by Daly. Good touch finder by Farrell. Good maul and Manu finishes. England haven't tied good phases together like that often.

This is normally about the time they go to sleep

That's a woefully poor option by Smith to take that in without quality support. Frustratingly unnecessary when they've gone 8-0 up early.

England just need to keep playing sensible rugby. They have the better scrum and lineout. Keep playing sensible rugby

Couldn't have less arms if he tried

king_carlos wrote:That's a woefully poor option by Smith to take that in without quality support. Frustratingly unnecessary when they've gone 8-0 up early.

Ironically should have kicked it

Such a poor position from Curry. It looked like he completely mistimes the tackle then ends up too low to make a legal hit but it's too late to do anything else. Just gifting another penalty chance.

Loz talking crap again ...

Yellow that ain't it with the late step.

How did Reynal not stop the play when the ball went near the injured player? It clearly had an effect on Fiji's ability to defend that set.

With how they've been reffed in the tournament around mitigation it should be a yellow. Late step and Smith is stooping. Who knows this RWC though.

A strong lead for England and a man in the bin. Need to keep the foot down now.

Itoje has started very well.

Was in both team's way and it was Fiji's fault there was an injured player there in the first place ... don't think they can have an argument against that

Don't start giving daft pens away now

Curry needs to start switching on a bit. Good showing so far though, going to plan

Get Curry off, he's a ticking time-bomb