Ulster 2023/2024 Season

First topic message reminder :

For the good, the bad and the ugly of Ulster rugby this season. Lets hope mostly good.

McCann, for me is POMs international replacement.
Massive engine, good lineout option, aggressive in defence, good hands and reads the game well.
All things that will get better the sooner he is playing international rugby

Sorry to be pessimistic. But this is Ulster. Just give it a year and he’ll be URC standard at best.

Too negative??

clivemcl wrote:Sorry to be pessimistic. But this is Ulster. Just give it a year and he’ll be URC standard at best.

Too negative??

Well recent history would say you are right.

But I hope I saw signs of life from the younger lads ( who looked like they were doing more leading than our senior "leaders").

Lowrey playing out of position was actively looking to get on the ball. Sheridan and McCann were getting involved both sides of the ball. McCann especially seemed to be doing a lot of talking.

A lot of our players seem bereft of any confidence. If they get a bit of that back, and a bit of luck, things will hopefully turn around.

The ten situation is a bit concerning, but by the looks of it Burns will be out for a bit so time for Doak and Flannery to put on the big boy pants and show they can play at this level.

And if it all does go to sh!t, well it's only a game, it's always darkest before the dawn, etc etc

clivemcl wrote:Sorry to be pessimistic. But this is Ulster. Just give it a year and he’ll be URC standard at best.

Too negative??

Yes

McCann is the best forward to come through the Ulster ranks since Henderson.

Sheridan is probably the 2nd best and Wilson has the potential to be up there as well.

I know the benchmark is very low but even so.

PS I am including Tom Stewart in that analysis - he needs to improve his scrummaging strength and he needs to improve his throwing.
PPS I am including O'Toole in that analysis - comes up short of being a top flight TH scrummager for me- rumours he may be switch to LH.

carpet baboon wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Sorry to be pessimistic. But this is Ulster. Just give it a year and he’ll be URC standard at best.

Too negative??

Well recent history would say you are right.

Then again who has come through the Ulster rans since Henderson since the current crop emerged - O'Toole, Stewart, McCann and Sheridan who had any real potential ?

Interested to see who people think had real quality

We are on a long hard road.
Even if Murphy does all the right things it will be 25 -26 before we see tangible improvement.

Next year will be about improving skills and seeing which youngsters sink and which swim.

In order to do that coaching tickets needs to be drastically altered with most going

Bell as a defensive coach is a joke
Soper has failed as attack coach
Grant as scrum coach - you have to ask why Fogarty has been brought in
Newby is a waste of space

Also the deadwood has to go - Jones, Sexton, Moxham, O'Sullivan come to mind
You have to say also the likes of M.Moore, Ewers, Addison are on borrowed time and their retention is highly questionable
Throw in rumoured retirements of Marshall and O'Connor and the change will be huge

Timoney?

I mean, weren’t we talking up Timoney a season or two ago like we’re talking up McCann?

Addison showed some flashes of his old brilliance yesterday, but only in fleeting moments. His lack of fitness for that chase back was borderline embarrassing at this level.

I was only considering players who have come through the Ulster system rather than promising players recruited from the south.
Timoney is a very good player and deserves a ticket to South Africa but probably is slightly below true International level - on a par with say Chris Henry.
McCann has the tools to play at a different level

To be fair it was hot 28 C and very humid

Optimism is in very short supply which makes this particular Monday even worse than usual. I don't think I've ever felt so deflated being an Ulster fan. It just feels like we're sinking deeper and deeper with a future that doesn't look like improving. It's OK people saying that next season will be a development year etc but we've not got much to work with.

I'm off to get a huge coffee and a massive slice of cake to soak up my darkness.

clivemcl wrote:Timoney?

I mean, weren’t we talking up Timoney a season or two ago like we’re talking up McCann?

Addison showed some flashes of his old brilliance yesterday, but only in fleeting moments. His lack of fitness for that chase back was borderline embarrassing at this level.

Was it Addison who did that filthy reverse pass near his own goal line under pressure. Total glorious filth.

Collapse2005 wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Timoney?

I mean, weren’t we talking up Timoney a season or two ago like we’re talking up McCann?

Addison showed some flashes of his old brilliance yesterday, but only in fleeting moments. His lack of fitness for that chase back was borderline embarrassing at this level.

Was it Addison who did that filthy reverse pass near his own goal line under pressure. Total glorious filth.

Addison did look like he's finding his old form plus he got through a game without being stretchered off. Win, Win.

Pete330v2 wrote:Optimism is in very short supply which makes this particular Monday even worse than usual. I don't think I've ever felt so deflated being an Ulster fan. It just feels like we're sinking deeper and deeper with a future that doesn't look like improving. It's OK people saying that next season will be a development year etc but we've not got much to work with.

I'm off to get a huge coffee and a massive slice of cake to soak up my darkness.

It's my job to be doom gloom and despondency Pete, and I certainly felt that after Saturday. As said above McCann, Sheridan and Wilson looked good, but there are 15 in a team and we need them all performing. Henderson played okay, but there did seem to be a leadership deficit out there, which shouldn't be just down to him.

I will take time for Murphy to turn things around, as well the ability to improve the rest of the coaching ticket.

Where is Reuben Crothers? Was captain of the GS winning U20s (2022?) so Murphy must rate him, think he will get more game time?

Petrie has nodded off at last.
Now to get rid of Bell

Yeah looks to be a clean broom going though, thats the best thing.

'By Mutual Consent' has to be the biggest lie in sports. In other words we sacked you and you mutually agreed to leave the building.

Hopefully the IRFU go full scale with the cleanout and attempt to fix Ulster off the field completely, otherwise they will be just destined to repeat the same cycle.

neilthom7 wrote:'By Mutual Consent' has to be the biggest lie in sports.  In other words we sacked you and you mutually agreed to leave the building.  

Hopefully the IRFU go full scale with the cleanout and attempt to fix Ulster off the field completely, otherwise they will be just destined to repeat the same cycle.

I couldn't agree more. There's more to the problem than McFarland and Petrie, something that has been present throughout the last few coaching tenures. I don't know if it's the entire culture that needs addressing or personnel that need ejecting but with Humphreys where he is now the IRFU should have the best insight into all things Ulster that they've ever had. When Connacht floundered the IRFU came to the rescue and rightfully so, we need all 4 provinces performing to their very best. They shouldn't wait until Ulster are floundering so badly that it'll take years to fix considering how strong the club has been historically.

Pete330v2 wrote:something that has been present throughout the last few coaching tenures.

Or an attitude or mindset that's being inherited, passed on, infected over time...

There's something in the Northern Ireland psyche that I think inhibits and restricts those who would seek to be leaders.

Can you imagine trying to say some profound words to inspire your group of male friends? They'd probably destroy you and take the piss.

Actually, it could partly be a symptom of the players in fact being TOO friendly with each other. Maybe the young boys need the older heads to not be so sociable, the type of people who don't speak too much, but when he does it's worth listening to. Maybe a few senior players need to give others a telling off from time to time.

I can kind of imagine Rory when he played telling others to 'wise up'.
Not sure who in the squad I can imagine doing that now - a serious face who doesn't get involved in nonsense. Is there anyone?

Maybe I'm totally wrong, or maybe it's just me getting older - but any time I see banter from these players I have a gut reaction of 'settle down and get serious'.

(I'd be a horrible boss I've just realised!)

So Thornley (who's rarely far off the mark) reporting that along with Billy Burns there will be a fair list of departures. Addison, Marshall, Ewers, O'Sullivan and Jones to be released. Curtis of course retired and Craig Newby moving on.

Nothing unexpected on here but I hadn't heard that Newby was going. I had hoped to see Bell named as well but fingers will remain crossed that he'll go, stealing a wage isn't something I'm a fan of.

Hugh McCaughey in as interim CEO from the South Eastern H&SCT. He has an extensive history of involvement in rugby at a number of levels so has a passion for Ulster Rugby etc.

So it's a good old clear out so far which is needed but the architect of all the bad appointments still remains and will remain to be a problem. With the IRFU chipping away at things it's surely only a matter of time for Bryn.

There's going to be a lot of short term pain for hopefully long term gain.

My assumption (hope?) is that end of season Bryn goes,
Murphy gets the job full time and he brings in his own coaches.
And maybe, just maybe we sign one or two extra players, or the academy lads are going to get a lot of game time

Having a passionate Ulster fan as CEO should always have been on the CV. Perhaps Hugh will be able to bring back the identity of Ulster Rugby that has lost it's way somewhat. Having a fellow supporter may well be engaging to the waning season ticket buyers. Most of all, he could be instrumental in the hunt for a new sponsor, one that could equally reengage with the fans. I feel he'll be someone who's voice will be a lot louder when in comes to defending Ulster's position and putting across what's needed to get us back on track, an outhalf for example.

Oh and getting rid of Bryn!

Someone on t'other forum tentatively claiming that Kitshoff to the Stormers next season is a done deal. If true it'd free up some badly needed funds for a player that we actually need.

Pete330v2 wrote:Someone on t'other forum tentatively claiming that Kitshoff to the Stormers next season is a done deal. If true it'd free up some badly needed funds for a player that we actually need.

It would certainly help matters. If he was tearing up trees and leading the team it may be worth keeping him, but currently his wages could be better used elsewhere

Team's up.

(15-9) Mike Lowry, Rob Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Ethan McIlroy, Nathan Doak, John Cooney;

(1-8) Steven Kitshoff, Rob Herring(C), Tom O’Toole, Harry Sheridan, Kieran Treadwell, Matty Rea, David McCann, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Andrew Warwick, Scott Wilson, Cormac Izuchukwu, Marcus Rea, Dave Shanahan, Jake Flannery, Stewart Moore

If Doak is considered a starter over Flannery then what's the point of Flannery? I can't say I feel my usual sense of excitement over this one.
Prove me wrong please!!!!

(15-9) Mike Lowry, Rob Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Ethan McIlroy, Nathan Doak, John Cooney;

(1-8) Steven Kitshoff, Rob Herring(C), Tom O’Toole, Harry Sheridan, Kieran Treadwell, Matty Rea, David McCann, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Andrew Warwick, Scott Wilson, Cormac Izuchukwu, Marcus Rea, Dave Shanahan, Jake Flannery, Stewart Moore

Beat me too it.

Well now is the time for Doak to pull out a worldie of a 10 performance.

carpet baboon wrote:(15-9) Mike Lowry, Rob Baloucoune, James Hume, Stuart McCloskey, Ethan McIlroy, Nathan Doak, John Cooney;

(1-8) Steven Kitshoff, Rob Herring(C), Tom O’Toole, Harry Sheridan, Kieran Treadwell, Matty Rea, David McCann, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: Tom Stewart, Andrew Warwick, Scott Wilson, Cormac Izuchukwu, Marcus Rea, Dave Shanahan, Jake Flannery, Stewart Moore

Beat me too it.

Well now is the time for Doak to pull out a worldie of a 10 performance.

Mine's in bold.
Is yours in bold?
I think not

Shanahan on the bench too? Two scrum halves and two out-halves even when you have Lowry who could play 10 in emergency. Seems strange. Maybe some doubt over them lasting in the heat?

Or maybe they just had no other backs out in SA fit to even be on the bench?

Strange selection.
Also kinda supports the rumours that there's no 10 coming in, and Doak is their heir apparent for the shirt.

Doesn't say much about Flannery. Murphy must not rate him much either.

Not often I have some inside info, but heard that Ulster were looking at Callum Sheedy from Bristol (apparently he is IQ) but couldn’t make it work. No other options. Settled on Doak next season.

Callum Sheedy is not, currently, IQ.
He would be in the future due to the recently change of rules

I thought I take a look at our squad next year given all the rumours:

Position       Staying                                                
LH              Warwick, Reid                                        
Hooker       Andrew, Herring, McCormick, Stewart
TH              O'Toole                                                  
Lock           Henderson, Izzy, Treadwell                                              
Back row     Crothers, McCann. Matty Rea, Marcus Rea, Reffell, Sheridan, Timoney                                                           
SH              Cooney, McKee                                        
FH              Doak, Flannery                                                              
Centre        Hume, McCloskey, Postlewaite                                        
Wing           Balacoune, Stockdale                              
Utility Back  Lowry, McIlroy, S. Moore, Moxham, Kok                

Position   Uncertain
LH                          Kitshoff
TH                          M.Moore
SH                          McDonald
Wing                       Sexton
Utility Back              O'Brien

Position        Very doubtful/Certain to go    
LH                           O'Sullivan
Lock                         O'Connor
Back Row                 Ewers, Jones
SH                           Shanahan
FH                            Burns
Centre                      Marshall
Utility Back               Addison

So that gives us for each position (+1 including the uncertains)

LH (2+1)
Hooker (4)
TH (1+1)
Lock (3)
Back Row (7)
SH (2+1)
FH (2)
Centre (3)
Wing (2+1)
Utility Backs (5+1)

TOTAL 31+5

So whose coming up from the Academy ?
Ignore Year 1's here is my assessment

Year 2:

Forwards:

Scott Wilson (TH) - Give him a Full contract now

Joe Hopes (Lock) - Keep him in the Academy for Year 3 needs to bulk up

Lorcan McLoughlin (Back Row) - Development contract

James McNabney (Back Row) - Development contract

Backs:

Rory Telfer (Utility Back) - Keep him in the Academy

Year 3:

Forwards:

George Saunderson (LH) - Development contract

Backs:

James Humphreys (Fly-half) - Not convinced. either Development contract or kept in Academy for a 4th year (which never works out)

I am going out on a limb here and saying that in most position we can field a decent team
Assuming the doubtfuls stay

Kitshoff, Herring, O'Toole
Henderson, Treadwell
Sheridan, Timoney, McCann
Cooney, Doak
Stockdale, McCloskey, Hume, Kok
Moore
Bench: Warwick, Stewart, Wilson, Izzy, (number of Backrowers), Lowry, Postlewaite

Thats's decent enough BUT and is a BIG BUT.
Other than hooker and Back Row it is paper thin in numbers and quality
Second BIG BUT - the lack of options at half back are a joke and will kill us next year.
Cooney out for an extended time - turn to Plan B
Bad news there is no Plan B - we are screwed

If Kitshoff goes I reckon O'Toole and Warwick will switch (is that why Fogarty is here?)
One benefit of Doak at 10 is we are spared the farce of him 'acting like a demented frog at the base of the ruck'

On the coaching staff - looks like Newby is away as well - good riddance, waste of a contract
Just take Bell when you close the door, probably Grant as well

You can't really like a post like that Geoff, but it seems a very good analysis if thoroughly disappointing. Any rebuild is a long term task so at least things seem to be starting, the key will be appointment of a permanent CEO and head coach, and they then need time (and money) to rebuild the squad. I'm sure someone famous once said something about it being darkest just before dawn.

What about Ward from the academy? Played 7 for the U20s looked a talented fella on both sides of the ball.
Played the England 7 off the park, who was heralded as the second coming

Bryn Ward isn't in the Academy.
He is just 20 - I would expect him to join Year 1 next year.
May well be a prospect but will not be involved with Ulster first team squad until 25/26 at the earliest.

Watched the Benetton v Treviso and McDonald had a very tidy game.
I think he must be coming back with Shanners away and Doak moving to 10

Can they keep that up for the second half? Baloucoune looking like he might be finding some form, and the pack showing some intensity.

Definitely a more positive Ulster performance, but the number of times a runner had a hand free looking for an offload but support wasn’t right there is disappointing.

Doak steps back and almost turns back like he’s box kicking his kicks. Why not take another step back and give yourself the room to kick. Seems a bit to anxious at the defence coming up on him.

For the second week in a row , this ‘give it a lash’ approach has provided some excitement, but it also brings its fair share of idiocy.
Perhaps that’s part of Murphy’s plan. By asking them to express themselves, he can get a better idea who has some brilliance and who actually doesn’t have it in them.

I can’t help but be negative about it again. Being left with only Doak as an out-half is perhaps the greatest failing of recent years. For years now there’s been chat of Lowry. Lo and behold, he was never developed as a ten option, nor did we give Flannery game time, then we lose Burns, and are now stuck with Doak.

I'll take that loosing bonus point, they put the Stormers under extreme pressure. Not at all sure about Doak at 10, he delayed a couple of times and that kick in the Stormers half when we were down to 14, what was that about? Even if the execution was better surely the thing to do was hold onto possession? I grant he needs some time to learn, but decision making isn't something that can be worked on on the training pitch.

But overall, better than I feared.

Yes, maybe better than expected, but with the fixtures we’ve got coming, we need some surprise wins, and that was one in our grasp. To be leading the majority of a game and cough it up is disappointing regardless of what expectations we had going into it.

Doaks kick when we got that turnover in their half was a mega brain fart. There was NOTHING on, no matter where he placed that kick.

In many ways that was a pleasing performance, some really energy
and collective commitment shown.
Could just be players enjoying playing again.

By a country mile the best performance from Baloucoune this year.
The others threes were decent.
Doak better than expect, missed a couple of pass opportunities in the 2nd half.
Doak made mistake but let’s not kid ourselves Burns was no more than mediocre.
Lowry was never going to make it as a 10 given his size.

McCann, Sheridan and Izzy all put in respectable performances as did Timoney.


However the front row continues to throw up as many questions as answers.
Wilson is out performing OToole week on week now, at least in the scrum.
Herring will remain the better hooker until Stewart improves his throwing and offer more in the scrum.
Kitshoff just isn’t delivery. I don’t care if he is a World Cup winner he has been sub standard; out muscled tonight and not for the first time.
Is his head elsewhere?

We are going to see mistakes as we build from ground zero.

As I mentioned before we have a very long hard road ahead.

Tonight we showed excellent commitment and for a number of players significant player improvement.

Of course I wanted to win but that was a step in the right direction.
The next three games are winnable, let’s do that and see what we need from there.

Rome wasn’t built in a day and Ulster being competitive is probably a full season away.
That is the reality of the here and now.

If you want instant success you are in for disappointment next year

I understand the frustrations Clive, but Geoff is right that there is deep hole that needs to be dug out of. Wilson is looking very promising, and McCann id doing well. A bit too like O'Mahony with the yellow card, but he contributed well and looked like he was doing a lot of talking in the huddles. Treadwell's handling and speed are great, but he just doesn't make a big dent in the tight. On the other hand he is at least still in place, and it seems like we just need bodies in some positions.

Liked what Murphy had to say in the post match interview. Maybe I'm just getting easy to please.

They defended well so that's a major plus. Team spirit also looked better in this game.

Attack play needs a lot of work though.

If they play like that the rest of the season i could see them squeeze in at the 8th spot. But given it will be Leinster or Bulls away I dont see them going further than that.

But the playoffs have thrown some strange results up in the past so they will still have a punchers chance.

The bigger thing about 8th is qualifying for the major European Cup.
No complication this time as no positions saved for teams winning shields

Yes there is that so im sure that plays a big part for revenues.

Report in SA Newspaper
https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/kitshoff-set-early-stormers-return/


Note this sentence

It is reportedly customary for high-profile players like Kitshoff to have clauses in their contracts that allow them to leave if the head coach departs.

If so he is definitely away

Interesting Geoff, and actually, if Ulster are as cash strapped as they say, they may be happy enough if that clause is used. Especially given he hasn’t set the world alight.

It's pro sport, so I can't get too upset if Kitshoff goes. I was never a fan of the move on the grounds that the money was needed elsewhere, rather than his playing ability, and I haven't changed my view. Especially as it could suit both sides very nicely. Just leaves me wondering where we can get any sort of replacement from. Given the cap restrictions in England could we get a decent (but quite international class) guy to tide things over until an academy/U20s prospect comes through?

Apparently we are trying to tempt Jack Murphy to move up. Which would imply his dad is getting the job on a permanent basis.

Just hope he's allowed to bring in his own coaching team.
And jack can't but help our 10 situation, would rather a proven 10, but in the absence of one a young fella who looks to have all the skills will have to do