Ulster 2023/2024 Season

First topic message reminder :

For the good, the bad and the ugly of Ulster rugby this season. Lets hope mostly good.

As long as there's a hole in my @r$e, Doak will never be a fly half.

From what I hear, as opposed to see, I think he is learning.
I’ ll wait to judge until I actually watch the match though.

We will win this due to Montpellier being as ill disciplined, and as thick as a team can be.
Down to 12.
Willemse is as stupid and irresponsible as a player can be - clear Red, according Jim and Ian.

Baloucoune continues to show signs of improvement.
McCann and Timoney have been excellent in the second half.

O’Connor sadly is physically finished, Matthew Rea sub standard as usual

Be interested to see if watching the match confirms those impressions

Montpellier discipline was shocking.
And boy is Ben Whitehouse an awful ref.
McCann is fast becoming a top player. Summer tour with Ireland beckons for him.

I didn’t know it was possible to win a European match and yet be despondent.

Good grief, what were Ulster at?

How can we not smash home a three man advantage?

And I think Flannery may have just displayed why Doak is seen as a better option at 10. That is saying a lot!

I’m not getting carried away by Balacoune. He ran through a space he didn’t create, and then got tackled before the line. I was a bit bemused by the commentators claim that it was a sign of him returning to his best.

Nope. Errors all over the shop. Some moments of inventiveness, but zero spark at any point. Nothing that compared to the flair in the Montpellier 9 chip score.

Very uninspiring, and we definitely only won that because Montpellier did their best to give it to us.

There maybe have been some moments from a few players, but on the whole, that win wasn’t exactly earned.

I think Addison would make the better ten from all our options.
I know Doak is learning but he just doesn't seem to make the right choice.
Against 12 men we should have just kept it simple, carry after carry till we sucked them in then walked in the corner. But we tried to go wide too soon and ballsed it up.

It feels very strange to feel deflated after an Ulster win in France, very strange indeed.

Did we win it ? Or did Montpellier throw it away.?
Did we play well? Or were they really bad?
But Wilson looked good again, as did McCann. And I loved seeing Sheridan be a bit nasty and getting stuck in, something we have needed for a while .

Unfortunately I think Al O'Connor s days are.done. great servant but I think it's time for him to retire

carpet baboon wrote:I think Addison would make the better ten from all our options.
I know Doak is learning but he just doesn't seem to make the right choice.
Against 12 men we should have just kept it simple, carry after carry till we sucked them in then walked in the corner. But we tried to go wide too soon and ballsed it up.

Addison did play a few times at 10 for Sale I think

Maine man wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I think Addison would make the better ten from all our options.
I know Doak is learning but he just doesn't seem to make the right choice.
Against 12 men we should have just kept it simple, carry after carry till we sucked them in then walked in the corner. But we tried to go wide too soon and ballsed it up.

Addison did play a few times at 10 for Sale I think

He did. And I'm sure he played a lot of.his junior rugby at 10

carpet baboon wrote:

Maine man wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I think Addison would make the better ten from all our options.
I know Doak is learning but he just doesn't seem to make the right choice.
Against 12 men we should have just kept it simple, carry after carry till we sucked them in then walked in the corner. But we tried to go wide too soon and ballsed it up.

Addison did play a few times at 10 for Sale I think

He did. And I'm sure he played a lot of.his junior rugby at 10

With his legs going, he might be worth a punt for the rest of the season. He's got good hands and reads the game well. It won't happen though

Maine man wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Maine man wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:I think Addison would make the better ten from all our options.
I know Doak is learning but he just doesn't seem to make the right choice.
Against 12 men we should have just kept it simple, carry after carry till we sucked them in then walked in the corner. But we tried to go wide too soon and ballsed it up.

Addison did play a few times at 10 for Sale I think

He did. And I'm sure he played a lot of.his junior rugby at 10

With his legs going, he might be worth a punt for the rest of the season. He's got good hands and reads the game well. It won't happen though

True. But we can but dream

I think to play Addison at 10 when he leaving is a silly idea.

geoff999rugby wrote:I think to play Addison at 10 when he leaving is a silly idea.

Is it any worse than Flannery and Doak?

Probably.

When did Addison last play there?

Will he be here next year - No
Will Flannery and Doak - Yes

Short term solution are no solution at all.

We need to build from the bottom up not look for quick fixes which do NOTHING to get us out of the mess we are in.

Everyone needs to face up to fact it will take some considerable time to create a coherent structure and ethos that will bring us success

If we see shoots of recovery in the second half of next year - that will be a step in the right direction

Its a long hard road ahead.

To be fair Geoff, if it were easy to make a good out half out of a 22yr old URC standard scrum half, everyone would be doing it.

If Doak is to be the main out-half, it will only be until we can find either the opportunity or the resources to replace him.

He may be all we have. But the idea we will become a good team again before we get a new 10 is a pipe dream.

1230 kick off on Saturday in Clermont

I think Doak has talents to succeed at a reasonable level, its his mind set that needs readjusting.

Good boot, strong tackler (for a 10) good pass.
That is a good base from which to start.
I do of course agree he is not at that level, or anywhere near.
I also agree he wont reach that level next year.

Fly Half alongside TH is one of the two position to fully develop in.
I also mentioned a number of posts back that next year half back would be a serious area of weakness.

However where I disagree are two fold.
We may not develop into a good team in a year, with Doak and Flannery at 10, but we can make forward progress and
become a well drilled competent team with them there.
We were never going to be a good team with Burns at 10 either.
We are so deep down a rabbit hole we are not going to fix all position in one year, especially given our financial situation.
If we fix 5-7 that would be progress.

The other thing is lets not kid ourselves Burns is a poor 10.
No distance on his kicks, a weak pass, poor (but brave) tackler.
He was willing to take a hit bit when does he make a defence splitting pass - hardly ever.
He just shovels the ball along, usually to McCloskey.

Doak will take more risks, and make more mistakes, but he is more likely to open defences that Burns.
Equally he is more likely to butcher a try scoring opportunity - at least for a year or two.

All options pale in comparison to a certain PJ who, as far as I’m aware, has a full clean criminal record.

I agree in so far PJ and SO were treated disgracefully, as was RP.

Those were IRFU decision not Ulster Branch and at least Bryn Cunningham fought Ulster corner in both cases.
Unlike that scum bag Logan who rolled over and surrendered.

However what is done is done.
Looking back will get us nowhere.
Collectively as a branch our Province needs to role its leaves up and do the hard yards to get up to speed.


Start with allocating £240, 000 a year to give 8 prominent schools a professional rugby coach with a remit not to select players to win a Schools Cup but identifying players good enough for the Professional game.
This could simply be ensured by a bonus for each player making the Academy from that school.

Make sure the schools are geographical diverse

Luke Marshall officially announces he's retired at end of season.

He's given everything he could for the club. Great player.

Maine man wrote:Luke Marshall officially announces he's retired at end of season.

A great servant to the club who seemed to suffer excessively from a range of injuries. I hope none of them adversely affects his quality of life going forward. I also think those injuries prevented him from showing his skills to the widest audience. I hope he has success in whatever he wishes to do next.

geoff999rugby wrote:I agree in so far PJ and SO were treated disgracefully, as was RP.

Those were IRFU decision not Ulster Branch and at least Bryn Cunningham fought Ulster corner in both cases.
Unlike that scum bag Logan who rolled over and surrendered.

However what is done is done.
Looking back will get us nowhere.
Collectively as a branch our Province needs to role its leaves up and do the hard yards to get up to speed.


Start with allocating £240, 000 a year to give 8 prominent schools a professional rugby coach with a remit not to select players to win a Schools Cup but identifying players good enough for the Professional game.
This could simply be ensured by a bonus for each player making the Academy from that school.

Make sure the schools are geographical diverse

Would largely agree but don't put the coaches in schools where only pupils of that school benefit, put them with clubs and only to look after underage sides. Means every child in the catchment area could benefit not just the ones at certain schools.

Fair point.
After I wrote it occurred to me a mix of most promising schools and clubs would be best.

Luke a true gent - top player, top bloke.

Stevie Ferris pulling no punches as Kitschoff leaving is confirmed.
I do feel our pundits tend to be a little too kind on our own players compared to overseas players.
I'd be happy to see punditry and journalists call out a few more players to be honest.

Keeping a running tab on possible/probable departures.
The latest position


TH                          French - Probably already away
LH                           O'Sullivan - probably already away
Lock                         O'Connor - Seems likely to retire
Back Row                 Ewers - retiring?/doesn't want to be here?
Back Row                Jones - Bound to be released
SH                           Shanahan - almost certainly released
Utility Back               Addison - almost certainly leaving - Jim Neilly says its a done deal

TH                          M.Moore - I think will probably stay but who knows
SH                          McDonald - I think will probably return from Connacht but who knows

Wing                       Sexton - who cares - get rid
Utility Back              O'Brien - who cares - get rid

Both Sexton and O'Brien have contracts till 2025 so we are probably stuck with them for another year.
Says it all when Burns, Marshall, Lowry, Stockdale, Moxham, Curtis all are all unavailable/missing from the start of season squad and they still cant make the 23

We need a 10.
We simply need a 10.
I don't think Doak was cutting it as the 9 we needed and I can't imagine how he'll ever cut it as the 10 we need. I hope he proves me wrong and starts pushing Crowley for the Ireland shirt but it's just not happening.

We need a 10. The IRFU has to intervene by either sending us one of the many Leinster options or helping us fund one from elsewhere. We can't be going into yet another building phase when we hadn't completed the last one. It's time to quit building on sand an start laying real solid foundations. You can't do that without a playmaker of some vision and skill.

Doak I think probably will still be a good nine. The issue I think he had is there wasn't a lot known about him which does make it easier for young players in that first season or two. But most teams have enough footage on him to start looking at his weaknesses. It how he adapts to that moving forward to determine how good he will be. Happens to every young player and is usually referred to as second season syndrome.

But Ulster need a 10 for sure. I dont think at a pro level moving Doak there is a option. It also will hamper him if they continue to try this...

I think you will be disappointed.

I suspect the IRFU are giving it a year because after Crowley the options are not great.
Even Crowley needs to impose himself on games more.
If Gibson-Park got badly injured Ireland would be seriously deficient in game management at 9/10.

Burns, Carty, Ross Bryne come up short
Carbery is finished
Harry Byrne flatters to deceive
Frawley, like Lowry, has simply been away from 10 too long - forget him.
Prendergast is the big hope but its too early.

Doak is a punt to see if his positive attributes can be turned into a decent 10.
If the experiment fails, Flannery will start playing 10.
If the experiment fails, but Ulster start improving elsewhere, and a number of youngsters start to impress,
I'd expect a NIQ 10 to come in next summer to take the team to the next level.

Forget the current rebuild it has crashed and burned, we are at ground zero.
Forget the Leinster 10's to a man they see being Leinster 3rd XV ten as better than Ulster 1st XV 10.

I don't necessary disagree by the way but unless a Leinster 10 has a change of mind I simply don't see it happening

To be fair 10 is such a hard position it's understandable why so many don't make the grade. Ulster do need a rebuild for sure. I don't think moving Doak to 10 is the way to go. It will affect is ability to develop as a viable 9 for Ireland/Ulster for the future. Tinkering with player positions almost always results with players never developing in the way they should.

Ulster I think may have to look at a overseas 10 in the interim and look to develop a young irish 10 alongside them. All the good ones cost money though so that option could be out as well. I think the hardest part is they will need to decide how they want to play before committing to 10 option. They will need a more running 10 if they want to open the backs up or a kicking 10 if they plan to use power through the forwards...... If they have to develop their own ten though they need to give them plenty of gametime to develop and accept the results may take a while to come.....Not sure if Ulster would be willing for that to happen though...

I think Carty and Ross Byrne are decent options for Ireland to back up Crowley going forward. Carty always shows up for Connacht and I think he'd fit into the Irish set up now better than his last shot at the green shirt. Harry Byrne does well in blue but not in green and Frawley is the swiss army knife for Ireland now so they're out of the picture.
Without a good 9 all of the above are dead in the water anyway and as you said Geoff, if anything happens to JGP Ireland will be all at sea. That's why I think they should be aiming to produce excellence at 9 and the 10 spot will be just fine. At the moment it's JGP with a drop off to the aging Murray and them, IMO a bigger drop off to Casey. Doak showed promise but then lost his way somewhere between his ego and the terrible coaching team. I'd rather see that promise getting revisited than try to force a square peg into a round hole. We don't have to rebuild from ground zero if that were the case.
Perhaps I am thinking in desperation for something to look forward to at Ulster, many straws are being grasped.

I didnt think Carty would make the next World Cup.....And Ross Byrne hasn't looked that great from the games I've seen. I think Harry is miles better than Ross.

Ireland probably do need to start looking for a credible third option at 10 though. I think the remaining 10's in Ireland don't look like they will be good enough at that level. But to be honest 2 top end 10's will no doubt be more than some other nations have available.

But elsewhere I can't imagine some of the current ireland side making the next world cup and im interested to see when they decide to bring in the next generation.

You would have to assume in the next season or two that van Der Flier, Conan, Gibson-Park, Henshaw, Lowe, Beirne, Henderson, McCloskey, Bealham, Carty & Aki will all be retired internationally. Guessing even Furlong will be pushing it a bit by the next one as well.

Not that in a lot of those positions it will be that much of a problem for Ireland as plenty of talent kicking around. But Tighthead could end up being a problem....

Welshmushroom wrote:I didnt think Carty would make the next World Cup.....And Ross Byrne hasn't looked that great from the games I've seen.  I think Harry is miles better than Ross.

Ireland probably do need to start looking for a credible third option at 10 though.  I think the remaining 10's in Ireland don't look like they will be good enough at that level.  But to be honest 2 top end 10's will no doubt be more than some other nations have available.  

But elsewhere I can't imagine some of the current ireland side making the next world cup and im interested to see when they decide to bring in the next generation.

You would have to assume in the next season or two that van Der Flier, Conan, Gibson-Park, Henshaw, Lowe, Beirne, Henderson, McCloskey, Bealham, Carty & Aki will all be retired internationally.  Guessing even Furlong will be pushing it a bit by the next one as well.

Not that in a lot of those positions it will be that much of a problem for Ireland as plenty of talent kicking around.  But Tighthead could end up being a problem....

Carty is no where near good enough - runs hot and cold regularly

credible third option at 10 though

Who do you think is the second credible option??

But Tighthead could end up being a problem....

LH is a far bigger problem.
Healy has only got 15 mins max at International level, Kilcoyne is finished, Buckley is too old now.
After Porter there is no one even remotely good enough.

I think 9 and 10 are potentially big problems for Ireland - not convinced by Casey as an adequate back up.
I don't think Farrell is either - thats why Murray will be around at least one more year.

I reckon your second 10 will be Harry Byrne....He looks like a good running 10. He needs to work on his kicking but I've seen enough to suggest he's the second best 10 playing in Ireland.

Loosehead could be a problem but it's a less difficult position to fill. So someone will no doubt come through on that front. Tighthead is a very difficult position to fill and I doubt either of Ireland's 3 options will make the next WC. If they don't I'm not even sure with 3 years to go they will find credible backups.

There are positions like 9 where Ireland need depth but again its a less worrying position as 9's tend to take less time to come through so they have time.

But a big thing in all of this is how Munster & Ulster will recruit. They will need to offer credible options in those positions if Ireland wants to stay top of the pile internationally. But how to do that is a whole different issue in itself. I think both will need to bring in some project players to try to qualify them for Ireland.

Forget Ireland, let's focus on Ulster. Cooney is no spring chicken, and we've thought we were losing him a few times over the years. The truth is, we need a real proper 10 to come in, not just because we need a better 10 than Doak, but because we have no better backup 9 than Doak.

Doak is far from unuseful. But his usefulness is much more as a 9 than a 10. And given his 22years versus Cooney's 33, I would say, every season we play him at 10 decreases his chances of being a decent long term 9 for us.

Unless people think MacDonald (24) has more potential as our future 9? Do we even know if he is in fact returning? Or is that just rumours?

Project Players are now 5 years - too late for the next World Cup.

There is no one at Ulster who has that status, and no one scheduled to come in next year.
That means the earliest Ulster would have an qualified project player is 2030-31 !!

Hope you are right about Harry Bryne and I do agree he is the most likely to make it.

I also agree about LH v TH but I really struggle to see any realistic LH prospects are
Bryne, Wycherley, Warwick aren't good enough.
Michael Milne? - he needs to be promoted in the pecking order currently 4th.
I suspect this is behind the talk of O'Toole trying his hand at LH.

TH has more realistic prospects - Knox, Salanoa, Wilson, Clarkson and O'Toole himself.

I agree with Clive about the big danger of Doak playing 10 in terms of stunting his growth as 9.

As to McDonald I think he must be returning if Shanahan is leaving.
No way we will go into a season with Cooney and one untried kid - zero chance.
From what I've seen he looks a useful player

So The plumb and Hendy are doubts for Saturday.

Kitsoff not much of a loss .

If Henderson is.out I say we start Izzy and Sheridan. And personally would have Joe Hopes on the bench over AOC.
Might as well give the young lads a taste of the business end of European rugby.

Al has been a great player for us, but last week he looked lost

Tough call

Warwick, Herring O’Toole/Wilson, Izzy, Sheridan, McCann, Matty Rea, Timoney

Bench: Saunderson,, Stewart, O’Toole/Wilson, Hopes, McNabney

No point picking AOC he looks spent, retirement can’t come soon enough.
No point picking Ewers busted flush and probably away
No point picking Jones as also away and not very good
No point picking Marcus Rea as must be seriously ring rusty

No one else to even consider.
Might as well have a few kids playing over players away in the summer.

I think realistically we know it would take some outlandish luck for us to win this competition. Not saying we can't as we can pull out one off big games. But the odds are not in our favour.

So we might as well go down swinging with the lads who will be here next year.

I do think Ulster are probably due a clear out with guys like Cooney who should be moved on. I'm not sure how good the academy is working either.

But I dont fancy any coach being able to fix some of these issues in the short term. Recruitment from Leinster is unlikely as anyone with talent will leave there and chances are will have competition from Munster and Connacht.

On a positive note i actually think Ulster have a good backline. But I think the lack of creativity at 10 has hampered them. Even the backrow in McCann and Timoney look good but i do think you guys miss a quality openside in that team. It's the front 5, 7,10 and bench that need some serious recruitment.

I'd also be questioning some of the coaching as well but that probably can only be evaluated if the above was fixed.

But I dont see any top end coach wanting this challenge given they are limited with overseas players they can bring in to fix some of these in the short term. Its a bit of a challenging job to take on.

On O'Connor, he's 31. Vermeulen hadn't even won a World Cup by that point. Is the issue something congenital?

I notice his LinkedIn has him now freelancing at both Ballymena Academy and Campbell.

He and Marty Moore would be big losses if they can't be salvaged. More generally though I think Ulster need to address the circular issue of playing fringe players/keeping fringe players interested. It's something that other provinces seems to manage a lot better than we do. Leinster in particular. When a Connors or a Deegan get one of their limited shots at first team action they seem a lot more ready to take it than our lot. Even though they don't seem bothered about moving elsewhere for more rugby (appreciating Connors injuries).

When one of our players goes off the boil (or falls out with the Head Coach) they appear to be scraped.

Just to bump what Bart S said on the other forum, we should be looking at players the previous regime junked like Kyle McCall and Rob Lyttle. Never world beaters even on their best days but could help us out in positions of weakness, even for a season.

Maybe the NIQ 10 next year will happen but I dont see it. Ireland prob thought they had better cover a few years ago, with Sexton, Carbery and Byrne, Carty and Burns getting games, yet Ulster weren't allowed a NIQ then, next season Ireland prob with be worse off at OH than then so can't see a NIQ 10 being allowed then.

Personally I think that Frawley, is moving.
My guess is IRFU approched him about a move but he said he'd be worried about being used as a utility back in Ulster and if going to be a utility back would rather stay at Leinster. So Ulster/IRFU moved Burns on, to ensure if he moved he'd be an OH and agreeable to the move. Prob also doesn't want anything to come out untill the summer as Leinster may play him less if they knew he wouldn't be there next season they may play him less as they give players that will be there nest season the games instead. Come the Summer he'll make the decision, starting OH for Ulster or utility back for Leinster.

Maybe wishfull thinking, but we'll see when Burns is fit, if he plays ahead of Doak its because someone is coming, if Doak plays then we really are in for Doak/Flannery next season, something Ulster fans aren't excited about.

I do think the key will be who the head coach/manager for Ulster will be. Am I right in assuming the guy who is doing it on a interim basis until they find a replacement?

Ideally they need to get someone who has a proven record in the market. Someone like Diamond for example would be a better fit at this point for Ulster I think. The danger is they don't get someone along these lines and you end up in the same scenario as the majority of our welsh regions at the minute who may all be very good coaches but have no idea how to recruit and build teams.

Agree with Kingshu. Can't help but still hope Burns was moved on intentionally because the IRFU are placing a young ten with us.

(It's the hope that kills you)

If you do get Frawley would be a great coup. He looks like a quality player and even if 10 doesn't end up being his final position he will make a great 12 which given McCloskey probably only has a couple more seasons left could end up being his long term replacement.

He's better than anything Ulster have at 10 now Burns is off so I would give him a good crack at it for the season and give him like 15-20 games there to see how he goes.

Hopefully this move comes off for you guys....

Some observations on point made above:

Get rid of Cooney - Madness. Next year we will only have the following players over their mid 20's
                            Timoney and Stockdale late 20's neither is a team leader
                            Andrew squad player likely to be dropped in 2025
                            Matty Rea who must also be in doubt in 2025
                            Marty Moore - who knows
That leaves only Henderson, McCloskey and Herring
We need Cooney for the leadership group

Baloucoune only ran into space engineered by others - isn't that what wingers are supposed to do?
                             The thing is he wasn't doing that few weeks back. He scored two tries and made one - not a bad return.
                             Most definitely an improvement                        
                             
I agree re Frawley, as posted by Kingshu - that is a reasonable assumption of where we might be.
The thing is though is Frawley up for it?
As an aside he has only started 4 games at 10, for Leinster, in the last 4 years.
Does he want to play 10 for Ireland?- if he does he has to move.
Maybe they are trying Doak out to see how it goes and if they are not convinced someone will come north.

Should we take him as a replacement for McCloskey - no we already have that player in Postlewaite

O'Connor has gone physically his body can't hack it any more - same happened to Danielli a few years back.

Steve Diamond - good god no. Absolutely car crash, most definitely not the man we need.
As referenced above we have a very young team next year - a coach who is good with them is what we need.
Murphy fits the bill.
Don't worry about signings - firstly there will be no additional signings this summer from abroad.
Secondly the IRFU will now be heavily involved and I suspect Humphreys will be part of any decision.
During his time at Ulster he was a top man in getting quality NIQ to join.

Side question - i did a piece on the Dragons thread relating to if your players are actually getting enough games to develop.

I'm just wondering if something similar is happening at Ulster? Looking at stats throughout the URC, I dont think players can say welfare is an issue with the amount of games players are playing. But with the reduced games in Europe and the URC are players maybe slightly underplayed now?