England - The Next Episode

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The next stage of development....progression or failure....who can tell.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought Marchant had rubbished the claims he was going to  Sarries and was going to do another year in France. As such he won't be available.

It's good to see the Saints backline going so well. Including them en masse against South Africa might have a benefit as they are used to playing behind a scrum that is going backwards. :-)

Don't forget that Saints look better in green than the Springboks.  Just sayin'.

Yes, just not as good as the Tigers   who are doing their best to bring through enough big mobile forwards to allow us to compete (why we can't develop outside centres and wingers anymore is anyone's guess).

Because we shut down the feeding route from Newcastle... they're all going to Saracens and the South West now....

OK, I know this is juvenile on my part, but...

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought Marchant had rubbished the claims he was going to  Sarries and was going to do another year in France. As such he won't be available.

It's good to see the Saints backline going so well. Including them en masse against South Africa might have a benefit as they are used to playing WINNING behind a scrum that is going backwards. :-)

doctor_grey wrote:OK, I know this is juvenile on my part, but...

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought Marchant had rubbished the claims he was going to  Sarries and was going to do another year in France. As such he won't be available.

It's good to see the Saints backline going so well. Including them en masse against South Africa might have a benefit as they are used to playing WINNING behind a scrum that is going backwards. :-)

We'll see in a couple of weeks didn't go so well for Saints earlier in the season with the scrum going backwards

Saints are certainly played some great stuff at the minute. The Bulls will get a great test for them, momentum is going to be hard earned so there will be a lot of pressure on the back three aerially and the attack is going to need to perform. The new defence coach and the S&C work over the summer have been sensational for them.

Poorfour wrote:I got an interesting insight on Marchant the other day from someone whose son had played with him at school. Apparently he's always been comfortable catching the ball above his head rather than waiting for it to fall into his breadbasket like most players, and that's part of why for a relatively short player (he's listed at 6'0") he's effective under the high ball. It helps that it's coupled with a very good jump and excellent timing as well.

I do hope he comes back so that Borthwick can build on what they started with the RWC. Given the attack is based on a very fluid model, that's entirely consistent with interchanging with Freeman and others as the situation demands.

On Marchant - I haven't had a chance to see much French rugby, how has he been getting on at Stade? Is he getting much gametime? We get to see and hear more of Willis and Arundel due to the Champions Cup.

Marchant's playing well for table topping Stade. He's only missed two Top 14 rounds since he joined them. Mainly at 13 but a few games on the wing. When I've seen him he's continued his form from the RWC.

Arundell has been much more up and down when I've watched Racing. Some of his defensive reads and positioning off the ball can be diabolical. He's getting better at looking for work though. I think it's a good place for him to be developing. He's predominantly playing as a winger too, which I think will be his best position longer term.

Thanks KC - that's good to hear about March. And if he is heading back then its good news for a prem team. I didn't even realise Stade were top of T14! Although from other threads I hear that the table has been quite skewed by international absences for the first 10rnds of the competition.

I think for Arundell that was one of his criticisms from his LI days - but that can all be resolved with experience and game time.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:OK, I know this is juvenile on my part, but...

formerly known as Sam wrote:I thought Marchant had rubbished the claims he was going to  Sarries and was going to do another year in France. As such he won't be available.

It's good to see the Saints backline going so well. Including them en masse against South Africa might have a benefit as they are used to playing WINNING behind a scrum that is going backwards. :-)

We'll see in a couple of weeks didn't go so well for Saints earlier in the season with the scrum going backwards

Saints are certainly played some great stuff at the minute. The Bulls will get a great test for them, momentum is going to be hard earned so there will be a lot of pressure on the back three aerially and the attack is going to need to perform. The new defence coach and the S&C work over the summer have been sensational for them.

Have you watched Saints lately FKaS? Their scrum is much improved, certainly pushed Munster about a bit, and Sarries, didn't see the Bristol game but at the moment their scrum is a real weapon

Worth noting on Marchant specifically, he was linked to Sarries who have confirmed the signing of Sam Spink. Rumours are it was Marchant or Spink, they went with the cheaper option who would be available for more of the season. Another Prem club might go for Marchant of course. Particularly if it was a hybrid contract. That then raises the issue of the PGP (Professional Game Partnership) being delayed as the RFU and PRL haven't come to an agreement with the old PGA finishing in June. That's the entire basis of the model on which English rugby runs.

Sweeney came out in the week and said the PGP delays wont have had an effect on recruitment. Which is farcical. It's the basis of how Prem clubs operate. How much cash will they get from the RFU? How many hybrid contracts will there be? When will hybrid contracts be confirmed? What will the EQP rules be in the matchday squads? Will rumoured squad limits be brought in?

It's been an (even) odder season for a few club comps with the RWC. Rumours are that Quins will rest Marler and Care for their Euro QF this weekend. Bulls might be sending a heavily rotated side to Saints due to travel concerns. Teams with one win in the groups qualifying for the Champions Cup KOs again. The Rebels are on the brink in Oz. Talk of a club world cup when they can't get domestic comps right.

The Prem clubs have the issue of covid loans to be repaid as well. Gloucester for instance are the biggest borrowers from the DCMS of the remaining clubs. Their loan was structured so that they pay nothing back until September 2025 but then they pay the accrued interest and their first normal repayment in a lump sum. Which will be around £1m. Then they will pay back £350k every 6 months for 15 years. Glaws recent accounts weren't awful reading. A reduced loss compared to the previous year at around £400k and a reasonable increase in turnover. Compared to losses of £3m or £2m at Welsh regions their accounts look OK. There's challenges ahead in repaying the loans though. Whilst the basic challenges of the times mean that turnover increase barely keeps up with inflation.

Tigers are paying back something like £62k/month for 10 years.

Tommy Freeman played the entire Saints-Bulls match at 13. He did fine, especially early on when Saints created their first half lead. As usual was involved with most things Saints did well. He certainly didn't look like a neophyte outside centre.

Im sure SB will have been taking note of all the players on show in the QF's.

I know they got humped but i from the part of the game (didnt see the full game) i saw, Waboso impressed me again. He just pops up everywhere, driving players on in to contact, roaming from his wing, looking for space, carrying in to traffic hard...
Just a quality young player now...imagine how good he can be.

From the Quins QF, I think Fin Baxter has done enough over the last few weeks (but particularly on Saturday) to be on the radar for a call up to the squad this summer, especially if (as seems very possible) Marler declines to spend more time away from his family.

It was also notable how controlled Marcus Smith's performance at fly half was. Very little flash stuff, but a lot of very tidy pulling of the strings in a match that was a real step up in quality from the Prem.

CCS was good for his time on the pitch, but isn't fit enough less to play 80 minutes at international intensity. Will Evans probably won't get his chance, Will Collier is probably past his and Will Porter has a very long line of contenders ahead of him but they all showed their value.

Poorfour wrote:From the Quins QF, I think Fin Baxter has done enough over the last few weeks (but particularly on Saturday) to be on the radar for a call up to the squad this summer, especially if (as seems very possible) Marler declines to spend more time away from his family.

It was also notable how controlled Marcus Smith's performance at fly half was. Very little flash stuff, but a lot of very tidy pulling of the strings in a match that was a real step up in quality from the Prem.

CCS was good for his time on the pitch, but isn't fit enough less to play 80 minutes at international intensity. Will Evans probably won't get his chance, Will Collier is probably past his and Will Porter has a very long line of contenders ahead of him but they all showed their value.

Yeah i think Baxter really needs to travel to NZ. Marcus will be there but in what capacity...Starting 10, bench cover for 10/15...where does that leave Fin Smith...travelling 3rd option?

I heard CCS was very physical...he was working well as the high impact sub during the 6n...i suspect that will continue in NZ until his fitness is improved...do you see him long term as a 6 or 8?

Was Murley playing PF?

Geordie wrote:
Yeah i think Baxter really needs to travel to NZ. Marcus will be there but in what capacity...Starting 10, bench cover for 10/15...where does that leave Fin Smith...travelling 3rd option?

I heard CCS was very physical...he was working well as the high impact sub during the 6n...i suspect that will continue in NZ until his fitness is improved...do you see him long term as a 6 or 8?

Was Murley playing PF?

For Quins, CCS will be 6 and backup 8 for as long as Dombrandt is around, but Borthwick may see him as an 8 once he can last a full 80.

Who knows where things go with eitrher Smith, but Borthwick's intent was for Marcus to start at 10 in the 6N so if he stays fit we may see that over the summer. That said, I could see him going better at 15 against Japan and NZ than he did in the RWC and 6N just because of the nature of the teams. Fin S needs game time sooner rather than later - my guess would be against Japan or in the easier AIs.

Murley was playing and didn't do much wrong but the nature of the game had him involved in the phases before the tries rather than having a chance to finish anything.

Geordie wrote:Im sure SB will have been taking note of all the players on show in the QF's.

My dear fellow compatriot, look back from the 2023 RWC to now and you will find that virtually every positive change or innovation Borthwick has tried was debated to death here first. It must be obvious to all Borthwick looks here to know how to proceed. Eddie Jones stopped looking here after the 2109 RWC and he eventually got bounced.

Once the PM figures out this is where brilliance and the path forward lives, the world can be fixed (except for Saracens).

Poorfour wrote:...Will Collier is probably past his...

As he's off to Castres next season, it wouldn't really make sense to take him on tour anyway.

Benjamin Kayser reckons the reason Fin Baxter looked so good at the weekend is because Collier was controlling his opponent so well.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:...Will Collier is probably past his...

As he's off to Castres next season, it wouldn't really make sense to take him on tour anyway.

Benjamin Kayser reckons the reason Fin Baxter looked so good at the weekend is because Collier was controlling his opponent so well.

The BBC Rugby Pod discussed this too, and recalled one of my all time favourite rugby moments - Collier’s first cap, on tour in Argentina when both sides wanted to scrummage properly and it resulted in one that lasted over 30 seconds in perfect form. DC remembered Collier “having a back so flat you could have put a plate of food on it.”

I think Collier’s off to France precisely because he has no further opportunity with England and wants to end his career somewhere they will pay him handsomely and fully appreciate the beauty of his scrummaging. He had a bad couple of years with an injury and a loss of confidence that Adam Jones eventually helped him turn around, and I think that may have cost him caps. But on the other hand, Cole apart England have favoured tightheads who offer a point of difference in the loose over out and out scrummagers.

Kayser’s right that Collier provided the platform for Baxter to do what he did, but I don’t think it lessens what Baxter achieved. To dominate two of the biggest props in world rugby - I think the count was 5 penalties, a free kick and one against the head - over 70 minutes always takes a team effort, but to be part of that rather than just holding your own is remarkable. Especially as a 22 year old still transitioning to 1st XV rugby.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:...Will Collier is probably past his...

As he's off to Castres next season, it wouldn't really make sense to take him on tour anyway.

Benjamin Kayser reckons the reason Fin Baxter looked so good at the weekend is because Collier was controlling his opponent so well.

The BBC Rugby Pod discussed this too, and recalled one of my all time favourite rugby moments - Collier’s first cap, on tour in Argentina when both sides wanted to scrummage properly and it resulted in one that lasted over 30 seconds in perfect form. DC remembered Collier “having a back so flat you could have put a plate of food on it.”

I think Collier’s off to France precisely because he has no further opportunity with England and wants to end his career somewhere they will pay him handsomely and fully appreciate the beauty of his scrummaging. He had a bad couple of years with an injury and a loss of confidence that Adam Jones eventually helped him turn around, and I think that may have cost him caps. But on the other hand, Cole apart England have favoured tightheads who offer a point of difference in the loose over out and out scrummagers.

Kayser’s right that Collier provided the platform for Baxter to do what he did, but I don’t think it lessens what Baxter achieved. To dominate two of the biggest props in world rugby - I think the count was 5 penalties, a free kick and one against the head - over 70 minutes always takes a team effort, but to be part of that rather than just holding your own is remarkable. Especially as a 22 year old still transitioning to 1st XV rugby.

I suspect that might start to change slowly....esspecially with SB there for the forseeable..

The reinstatement of Marler and Cole into the 23 is a pretty clear indication that Borthers wants a good scrum game. Pairing them with a more mobile operator in the loose gives England good options though Genge is pretty good at the scrum as well (just not Marler levels).

No prop is ever going to do a one man job on the opposition, you'll always need the other side to at least stay strong and get parity. Collier is experienced enough to do his job and Baxter is clearly strong enough to make an impact.

Who of Genge, Marler and Obano is getting dropped to include Baxter or will he be an apprentice?

It might depend if Marler is travelling or staying with family...

To be honest i might be inclined to leave Marler anyway...Genge is good, Baxter the newbie...and have a look at what Obano can do..hes a good strong player.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Who of Genge, Marler and Obano is getting dropped to include Baxter or will he be an apprentice?

Hard to say at this point. A lot depends on whether Marler wants to do another long tour and Borthwick wants to take him. He's said he's available but will retire from rugby fully at the end of the 24-25 season. His kids are also at the sort of age where taking the family on tour for a last hurrah might well be an option for him. 100 caps is tantalisingly close (though I am not sure it how much it motivates him), but he needs 9 and there are only 13 games between him and retirement.

That sets a deadline on having a successor for Marler, and I would say Baxter is in pole position. For one, he's a like-for-like replacement as a technically strong scrummager who is also strong defensively and has top notch endurance for a prop. But is much, much less likely to do something stupid. For another, he's already vying for the 1 shirt at Quins. The media narrative before the UBB game was how much of a loss Marler would be, but the Quins faithful's faces did not look bovvered.

Obano's good, and perhaps would have got his chance much earlier if he hadn't joined the Injured By Eddie WhatsApp group, but there haven't been many calls for him to start ahead of Marler yet.

So the obvious scenario is to take Genge, Marler and Baxter so that the latter can be eased into international rugby with support from a player who knows him well. Or Borthwick might take extra front rows anyway. It's not the RWC and if anyone gets injured you're a long way from home.

It's only Ruck, but they are saying that Marler has made himself available for the summer tour but will retire in 2025. The last part fits in with what he has previously said.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It's only Ruck, but they are saying that Marler has made himself available for the summer tour but will retire in 2025. The last part fits in with what he has previously said.

On an Australian podcast with Drew Mitchell and Matt Giteau, Marler indicated he'd be happy to go on tour with England or the Lions if picked but didn't have any great expectations of either. He said there's no real point in announcing a retirement, as no-one would believe him.

It's possible he's dealing better with the mental health issues which led him to pull out of England squads before. There's also a chance he's found Borthwick easier to work with the Jones, even though Jones appeared to cut him a lot of slack.

I think Marler's relationship with both Jones and Borthwick is simpler than many players' because it's completely transparent on both sides.

Marler has been the best scrummaging (and arguably best defensive) loosehead available to England since Corbisiero stopped playing, and he's rarely been injured or out of form. So whether or not he got selected was determined by whether he was banned or not and whether he was 100% committed to playing.

One of those is fairly easy to spot (and has happened much less in recent years) and Marler has been totally up front about the other to both coaches. If he can't give them his all, he withdraws. If he can, he makes himself available.

That's a surprisingly easy fit to Jones's style. He wants total commitment from his players, and with Marler he knew that if Joe couldn't give total commitment, he wouldn't be there. With Borthwick, the conversation (paraphrasing a bit from several interviews) has been "I'm setting a limit on when I am going to play to, but I believe in what you're doing so until then I will do whatever you need of me."

Afternoon all. You will have to start another England thread again, if you want a decent one. This is going past 20 pages shortly.