England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

by Geordie Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

by Geordie Sun Apr 28, 2024 11:20 am

Malins just never looked comfortable on the wing...and there's fair as he was a fly half who was moved to full back. At times it looked like he was running in mud.

They clearly saw him as the 'new' Elliott Daly ..but it didn't work.

As Sam says if its FB ..then he's got competition..Josh Hodge developing aswell...and further back Falcons own Ben Redshaw at 18 is already looking so impressive that Saracens or Bath will probably snap him up for next season..

BUT in his favour..SB and his team are changing the tactics etc...and seem to be getting the key selections right now...so if he's deemed good enough he'll probably get another look in..as we've said about Dombrandt above.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Apr 29, 2024 1:34 am

Rob Baxter made a point of mentioning after the Gloucester game that 29 year old Jacques Vermeulen will soon be eligible for England. He joined Exeter for the 2019-2020 season, so he'll have 5 years residency under his belt some time this summer.

Hard to see him leapfrogging other back row options. It's probably more significant for Exeter having an another England-qualified player (I'm assuming clubs still get some RFU cash for EQ players. That deal may have changed, though).

Definitely recommend this week's "For the love of the game" podcast. Courtney Lawes joins Dan Cole and Ben Youngs

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6VTltB4GxurwQ18LYje1Ec?si=b5cd6c24af9c4019

All three players have had lengthy international careers, and they reflect on how much the game has changed in terms of prepapartion and organization.

As Lawes is the guest, he talks about how his own play has evolved over the years. Cole remarked on how Lawes was getting regular turnovers at the last World Cup, which wasn't always a strength before. Lawes says he used to jackal more at the start of his career but sustained a lot of injuries when the opposition cleared him out. He explains he worked on his leg strength, and now can take those hits, which means he's willing to risk going in more.

by mountain man Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:16 am

Rob Baxter made a point of mentioning after the Gloucester game that 29 year old Jacques Vermeulen will soon be eligible for England. He joined Exeter for the 2019-2020 season, so he'll have 5 years residency under his belt some time this summer.

I hope not. Nothing to do with playing abilty but if England cannot produce good enough players from "home grown" then might as well give it up.
Let's be honest, Feyi-Waboso should have gone to Wales although as an England supporter I'm glad he choose us but at least there is some tenuous heritage there. Getting in as soon as residency has been done leaves a sour taste to me.

Yes I know, it's all fair in love and war and rugby and lots do it but this is just my personal opinion.

by Geordie Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:35 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Rob Baxter made a point of mentioning after the Gloucester game that 29 year old Jacques Vermeulen will soon be eligible for England. He joined Exeter for the 2019-2020 season, so he'll have 5 years residency under his belt some time this summer.

Hard to see him leapfrogging other back row options. It's probably more significant for Exeter having an another England-qualified player (I'm assuming clubs still get some RFU cash for EQ players. That deal may have changed, though).

Definitely recommend this week's "For the love of the game" podcast. Courtney Lawes joins Dan Cole and Ben Youngs

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6VTltB4GxurwQ18LYje1Ec?si=b5cd6c24af9c4019

All three players have had lengthy international careers, and they reflect on how much the game has changed in terms of prepapartion and organization.

As Lawes is the guest, he talks about how his own play has evolved over the years. Cole remarked on how Lawes was getting regular turnovers at the last World Cup, which wasn't always a strength before. Lawes says he used to jackal more at the start of his career but sustained a lot of injuries when the opposition cleared him out. He explains he worked on his leg strength, and now can take those hits, which means he's willing to risk going in more.

Dear god no....I can get away with the Waboso "technicality" but just no to Vermuelen.

by king_carlos Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:49 am

Benhard Janse van Rensburg qualifies in 2026. At this stage I'd be more surprised if he isn't capped than if he is. Quality centre.

by Geordie Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:52 am

king_carlos wrote:Benhard Janse van Rensburg qualifies in 2026. At this stage I'd be more surprised if he isn't capped than if he is. Quality centre.

No thank....lets develop our own...as much as possible.

by Poorfour Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:56 am

Geordie wrote:
Dear god no....I can get away with the Waboso "technicality" but just no to Vermuelen.

Just to add more mud to the water of the full back debate, how would you feel about Tyrone Green? He qualifies of England in the summer of 2025...

by king_carlos Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:03 am

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/04/29/billy-vunipola-arrested-after-incident-in-spanish-bar/

Oh, Billy. He's never been the brightest spark but it's so sad when sportsman who are aging out of their prime head this sort of way. Hoggy's doing similar since retirement. I genuinely get that it must be brutal when your whole adult life has revolved around physical gifts, then those gifts fade. Just don't be a d**k though. It's not a tough rule to follow in order for most people to be sympathetic to how big that adjustment must be. This is especially a concerning when Billy is heading to France given that Sarries are renowned for being excellent at taking care of players off the pitch in this sort of regard. Whilst Billy is renowned for needing an arm around his shoulder.

For those who can be bothered to read it. He got smash, took his shirt off, then threatened customers and staff with bottles and chairs in a bar in Palma. Eventually he was tasered twice so police could arrest him.

by Geordie Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:08 am

Poorfour wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Dear god no....I can get away with the Waboso "technicality" but just no to Vermuelen.

Just to add more mud to the water of the full back debate, how would you feel about Tyrone Green? He qualifies of England in the summer of 2025...

PF...one of my favorite Prem players....but not for England. We have a huge number of home grown options opening up at 15 and a number of other positions...lets develop them...

Edit...hes excatly what SB wants at Fb though...so i may be over ruled Wink

by mountain man Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:09 am

If it wasn't so serious that is quite a funnny story, what a stupid thing to do though.

However, I don't think it's necessarily relevant to his career as a pro rugby player. More than likely just a particular personality. Plenty of idiots get pissed and do similar every Sat night.

by king_carlos Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:15 am

Geordie wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Benhard Janse van Rensburg qualifies in 2026. At this stage I'd be more surprised if he isn't capped than if he is. Quality centre.

No thank....lets develop our own...as much as possible.

It's a different discussion and a done to death one, but, with 5 year residency I don't have the same issue. With 3 year residency we saw players qualifying after one contract (many rugby deals are 2+1) and most problematic we had unions with project player programs. Since residency increased to 5 years that has changed.

Vitally, 5 years is long enough to gain citizenship in most countries as well. Which IMO is significant. I don't think it's that reasonable for someone who hasn't yet represented another nation to be told they are citizens of a country but can't play sport for that country.

Players such as WP Nel should be able to represent their adopted nation. Nel is more settled in Edinburgh than most Scottish folk I know there given 75% of them are usually in the process of applying for a working holiday visa in Australia. Jokes aside, his life is in Scotland. His family are very much here. It's his home. For me, 5 year residency will allow people such as that to represent their adopted country far more often than it will be exploited, as such I think it's a good rule. 3 year residency wasn't, it was too exploitable.

The grandparent rule needs to go or at the very least be changed to something such as needing 2 out of 4 grandparents or 1 grandparent and a shorter (3 year?) residency period. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with eligibility criteria now.

5 year residency improved it gigantically. Stopping teams tying through the U20s was also a necessary move. Whilst, unlike some, I think ending the one country for life rule will aid rugby in the long run. There will be small examples of it doing what wasn't intended such as Kleyn heading back to the Boks. Overall, its main repercussion so far has been SH players who didn't originally represent the PIs heading back to them with all their knowledge. A small reversal of that talent and brain drain is the least those rugby nations deserve given what they've given to the game.

by mountain man Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:23 am

Residency timing is one thing, developing own players is another and England with all the players and resources they have surely can develop own without needing to cap ex Boks or whoever.

by king_carlos Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:25 am

Poorfour wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Dear god no....I can get away with the Waboso "technicality" but just no to Vermuelen.

Just to add more mud to the water of the full back debate, how would you feel about Tyrone Green? He qualifies of England in the summer of 2025...

I reckon Green might end up in a Boks squad soon with le Roux moving on and Mapimpi aging out. Rassie is going to have to overhaul that squad over the next few years. It had a perfect age profile for a RWC but an insane number of them will be at the end of their careers come the next RWC. I wouldn't be surprised if the Boks try a lot of fringe players over the next two years. Particularly for summer tour and AI fixtures where there won't be the same focus on results as the RC.

I'm honestly not sure I see an international FB or winger in Green though. Good player, but I just think he's maybe lacking the rounded skills to be a Keenan type FB and he isn't in the second fly-half mould where most the best coaches seem to be looking at FB.

Whilst Kolbe, Arendse and Moodie (I expect he'll play wing more than centre for the Boks) are more lethal, with Kolbe and Arendse also having fantastic all round games. Kolbe's kicking is brilliant for a winger, whilst their roles in Boks defence are pretty incredible. It's sometimes overlooked given how lethal they are on the counter but Kolbe and Arendse's pace is utilised on defence and kick chase far more than attack. They tend to live off scraps ball in hand but when their systems force turnover ball, they are a scintillating team when those scraps result in broken play.

by Poorfour Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:42 am

king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Dear god no....I can get away with the Waboso "technicality" but just no to Vermuelen.

Just to add more mud to the water of the full back debate, how would you feel about Tyrone Green? He qualifies of England in the summer of 2025...

I reckon Green might end up in a Boks squad soon with le Roux moving on and Mapimpi aging out. Rassie is going to have to overhaul that squad over the next few years. It had a perfect age profile for a RWC but an insane number of them will be at the end of their careers come the next RWC. I wouldn't be surprised if the Boks try a lot of fringe players over the next two years. Particularly for summer tour and AI fixtures where there won't be the same focus on results as the RC.

I'm honestly not sure I see an international FB or winger in Green though. Good player, but I just think he's maybe lacking the rounded skills to be a Keenan type FB and he isn't in the second fly-half mould where most the best coaches seem to be looking at FB.

Whilst Kolbe, Arendse and Moodie (I expect he'll play wing more than centre for the Boks) are more lethal, with Kolbe and Arendse also having fantastic all round games. Kolbe's kicking is brilliant for a winger, whilst their roles in Boks defence are pretty incredible. It's sometimes overlooked given how lethal they are on the counter but Kolbe and Arendse's pace is utilised on defence and kick chase far more than attack. They tend to live off scraps ball in hand but when their systems force turnover ball, they are a scintillating team when those scraps result in broken play.

Fair point about Bok selection - I think Esterhuizen going back to SA may well be the start of that. As for Green, he was actually hired by Quins as a backup fly half originally, but picked up the 15 shirt after Mike Brown's red card in '21 and has only been out of it when injured. I think he's got the skillset, but isn't called upon to be a playmaker that often in a side where the stated gameplan is for Smith to get his hands on the ball more than once per phase. He's good in the air, and one of the best broken field runners around, which may not translate against the more organised defences at international level.

by formerly known as Sam Mon Apr 29, 2024 11:09 am

Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Dear god no....I can get away with the Waboso "technicality" but just no to Vermuelen.

Just to add more mud to the water of the full back debate, how would you feel about Tyrone Green? He qualifies of England in the summer of 2025...

I reckon Green might end up in a Boks squad soon with le Roux moving on and Mapimpi aging out. Rassie is going to have to overhaul that squad over the next few years. It had a perfect age profile for a RWC but an insane number of them will be at the end of their careers come the next RWC. I wouldn't be surprised if the Boks try a lot of fringe players over the next two years. Particularly for summer tour and AI fixtures where there won't be the same focus on results as the RC.

I'm honestly not sure I see an international FB or winger in Green though. Good player, but I just think he's maybe lacking the rounded skills to be a Keenan type FB and he isn't in the second fly-half mould where most the best coaches seem to be looking at FB.

Whilst Kolbe, Arendse and Moodie (I expect he'll play wing more than centre for the Boks) are more lethal, with Kolbe and Arendse also having fantastic all round games. Kolbe's kicking is brilliant for a winger, whilst their roles in Boks defence are pretty incredible. It's sometimes overlooked given how lethal they are on the counter but Kolbe and Arendse's pace is utilised on defence and kick chase far more than attack. They tend to live off scraps ball in hand but when their systems force turnover ball, they are a scintillating team when those scraps result in broken play.

Fair point about Bok selection - I think Esterhuizen going back to SA may well be the start of that. As for Green, he was actually hired by Quins as a backup fly half originally, but picked up the 15 shirt after Mike Brown's red card in '21 and has only been out of it when injured. I think he's got the skillset, but isn't called upon to be a playmaker that often in a side where the stated gameplan is for Smith to get his hands on the ball more than once per phase. He's good in the air, and one of the best broken field runners around, which may not translate against the more organised defences at international level.

Quins signed a winger/fullback from Super Rugby as a flyhalf with Lang and Edwards on the books? I thought he was a replacement for Travis Ismaiel who's signing hadn't worked out and with Gustard at head coach looking to phase out some of the salary expensive old guard which included Brown.

by Poorfour Mon Apr 29, 2024 11:56 am

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

Poorfour wrote:
Quins signed a winger/fullback from Super Rugby as a flyhalf with Lang and Edwards on the books? I thought he was a replacement for Travis Ismaiel who's signing hadn't worked out and with Gustard at head coach looking to phase out some of the salary expensive old guard which included Brown.

He was certainly viewed as a utility back from the outset but he was listed on the squad pages as a flyhalf. IIRC, he'd played every position from 9 up. And at that point Lang had started focusing on centre and was known to be likely to leave to pursue his Scotland ambitions, and Edwards was a punt on a 7s player who hadn't been tried at 15s. Gustard offered Brown an extra year - the falling out was that Brown wanted 2.

by formerly known as Sam Mon Apr 29, 2024 12:30 pm

Poorfour wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
Quins signed a winger/fullback from Super Rugby as a flyhalf with Lang and Edwards on the books? I thought he was a replacement for Travis Ismaiel who's signing hadn't worked out and with Gustard at head coach looking to phase out some of the salary expensive old guard which included Brown.

He was certainly viewed as a utility back from the outset but he was listed on the squad pages as a flyhalf. IIRC, he'd played every position from 9 up. And at that point Lang had started focusing on centre and was known to be likely to leave to pursue his Scotland ambitions, and Edwards was a punt on a 7s player who hadn't been tried at 15s. Gustard offered Brown an extra year - the falling out was that Brown wanted 2.

I might be misremembering but wasn't the Brown deal also at a hefty discount?

by Poorfour Mon Apr 29, 2024 1:20 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I might be misremembering but wasn't the Brown deal also at a hefty discount?

I don't remember hearing that at the time, but it's possible. There was a huge breakdown in negotiations, either way, and it's probably not an exaggeration to say it led to Gustard losing his job.

by king_carlos Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:10 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Fair point about Bok selection - I think Esterhuizen going back to SA may well be the start of that. As for Green, he was actually hired by Quins as a backup fly half originally, but picked up the 15 shirt after Mike Brown's red card in '21 and has only been out of it when injured. I think he's got the skillset, but isn't called upon to be a playmaker that often in a side where the stated gameplan is for Smith to get his hands on the ball more than once per phase. He's good in the air, and one of the best broken field runners around, which may not translate against the more organised defences at international level.

He's got the playmaking skills of a Keenan type role where he can step into first receiver with the right structures. No doubt there. FBs at international level are rapidly moving beyond that though. 6 of the top 8 sides seem to be going (or have gone for a while) down the route of a genuine fly-half quality kicker and playmaker there. NZ (Beaudy or DMcK), SA (Willemse), France (Ramos), England (Furbank), Scotland (Kinghorn) and Argentina (Mallia). Only Mallia hasn't played 10 internationally from that lot, even then, he's played there for bleedin' Toulouse!

It does feel that we are seeing a proper shift in the position. The previous generation started seeing fullbacks who came in at first receiver but they weren't guys with that level of FH game time. le Roux and Hogg for instance. As said a few times, I reckon that modern defences are so good that coaches have accepted you need more playmakers and fullback makes the most sense to fit them in.

It's why I quite like the Steward at 12 idea. It can utilise his bulk getting over the gain line - one of the most valuable skills in rugby. His size would be more of an asset defensively in the main d-line as well. You can still use his high ball work just as a chaser rather than waiting for kicks (which increasingly don't come his way as good sides are just kicking to compete elsewhere). I just don't think it's a solution for England in the middle of the Six Nations when he's never played there as carpet keeps requesting. Laugh

I'd love it if Tigers used the last few rounds of their embarrassing second half of the season to try it though.

On Green specifically, SA have a winger in Kolbe with the skills to do a playmaker role. He's played 10 at Top 14 level after all. So they could feasibly have both in a back three and split responsibilities a bit. I've just got a feeling that Green may get a few caps but maybe come up that bit short given what the Boks have in the back three. Similar to Guy Porter for instance.

by mountain man Wed May 01, 2024 4:29 pm

Regarding Billy V, I listened to this weeks rugby union BBC podcast and apparently he didn't assault anyone or threaten them with anything etc. This though was according to Billy V (he wasn't on pod but this was via X or whatever). What actually happened no doubt will be somewhere in between.

Whatever it was, not a great look.

by king_carlos Wed May 01, 2024 8:52 pm

The bars owner has given a pretty balanced and seemingly level headed account of it:

Torygraph wrote:The bar’s owner, Toni Rocha, praised the police and his doormen for dealing with a “very difficult’ and “very tense” situation, while backing up Vunipola’s statement that there was no violence and denying that Vunipola had threatened customers and staff with bottles and chairs.

Rocha said that Vunipola had arrived at the bar at around 3am with another player which Telegraph Sport believes to be prop Marco Riccioni.

“It was just Billy and his friend but when they ordered the first round they asked for six Amarettos with orange juice and freshly squeezed lime,” Rocha said. “I know because I served them. I’m pretty sure they drank them between the two of them, with Billy having four and the friend the other two.

The friend was fine but Billy started becoming a problem as he became drunker. I had to ask him to put his top on at one point when he took it off while he was at the bar.

He didn’t threaten customers or staff with bottles or bar stalls or anything like that but he was annoying other customers by pushing them, not in a violent way, but elbowing them and bothering them.

He put his shirt on when I asked him to first time round. His friend who was co-operative at all times helped him put it back on. But then he took it off a second time and then a third and we decided to call police.

I’d already got the doormen involved to try to get him to leave and his friend was assisting us but there was just no way we could get him to abandon the premises and the situation was becoming very tense and we saw we were going to have a problem if we tried to use physical force to get him out. I warned his friend I was going to call police and he said: ‘Do what you have to do.’

We thought he was going to calm down when he saw uniformed officers arrive but when the first police appeared on the scene he confronted them and they had to call for back-up.

It was around 4am and we still had more than an hour left before we were supposed to close. When the back-up arrived the police told us to clear the bar, put the lights on and cut the music.

The rugby player reacted by confronting the officers when they went to talk to him and insult them. I heard him saying ‘f------ cops’. He also hit one of them with his shirt in his hand.

They tried to get him out and couldn’t until they tasered him. He laughed the first time they went to taser him, it was like a film, and I heard the words ‘Another one’ and the second time round he fell to the ground and the officers immobilised him and put wrist-ties on him.”

Summing up the incident, Rocha added: “It could have turned out very different and ended very badly because we were dealing with a strong man who was very drunk and was acting inappropriately and refusing requests for him to leave. We felt things could have got broken or he could have assaulted someone if we tried to force him out.

I didn’t feel frightened, it was more a feeling of impotence that we couldn’t get him to abandon the premises. But some clients, especially women clients, were feeling frightened and very uncomfortable.”

Basically, sounds like he was obnoxiously drunk and acting like a proper f***wit. Then the drunker he got, the deeper in f***wittery he slipped. Had it been a normal sized human, then a couple of bouncers probably chucks them out in a minor scuffle. As Billy is gigantic the police were called, then he kept resisting the police, then he got tasered and cuffed.

If the, "Another one", was Billy asking to be tased again after laughing at the first taser, then that's something out of a TV show. The type of thing the Inbetweeners might've written.

by Pebbles Wed May 01, 2024 11:03 pm

Not that it's funny in any way but given the attitude of most bouncers I would have quite enjoyed seeing their faces when they saw the size of the trouble maker

by doctor_grey Thu May 02, 2024 12:07 am

mountain man wrote:Regarding Billy V, I listened to this weeks rugby union BBC podcast and apparently he didn't assault anyone or threaten them with anything etc. This though was according to Billy V (he wasn't on pod but this was via X or whatever). What actually happened no doubt will be somewhere in between.

Whatever it was, not a great look.

Can't possibly see how you think this was a bad look. All he did was walk into a bar at 3:00am, order and put down a half-dozen drinks in less than an hour, take his shirt off, annoy other customers, refuse to leave when asked, get zapped twice by taser, and was zip tied by the police. Bad look? Seems like a normal night.....

by **Rugby Fan** Thu May 02, 2024 8:22 am

Courtney Lawes is on Dan Cole's and Ben Youngs' podcast again this week.

A listener questions asks whether Ollie Chessum's future is in the second row, or on the flank.

Lawes says Chessum is the closest to himself as a player, so think he'd do best on the flank. He thinks Chessum is on the light side for a lock (Cole pointed out he's around 120kg, which is more than Lawes thought). He says Chessum is probably more athletic, so had the work rate you need on the flank. he also thinks a genuine third line out option is essential at international level. If your pack has two options, and the opposition have three, then you won't win their ball, and will struggle to retain your own.

Earlier in the conversation, the trio were asked who is England's best tackler. They all agreed on Sam Underhill, saying he's technically so good.

by mountain man Thu May 02, 2024 8:27 am

Well as I said previously, this probably happens a dozen times every Saturday night but as it was a famous(ish) sportsman it makes news.

Fact he didn't threaten anyone with bar stool or whatever shows the initial reports in media just always try and sensationalise stories like this which never help said person in middle of it. Yes he was a clown for way he acted etc but he ended up with a 250Euro fine and sent home.
In other news some maniac killed a 14 year old with a sword and severely injured 4 others.

*edit this in reply to Doctor Grey

by Geordie Thu May 02, 2024 9:02 am

doctor_grey wrote:
mountain man wrote:Regarding Billy V, I listened to this weeks rugby union BBC podcast and apparently he didn't assault anyone or threaten them with anything etc. This though was according to Billy V (he wasn't on pod but this was via X or whatever). What actually happened no doubt will be somewhere in between.

Whatever it was, not a great look.
Can't possibly see how you think this was a bad look. All he did was walk into a bar at 3:00am, order and put down a half-dozen drinks in less than an hour, take his shirt off, annoy other customers, refuse to leave when asked, get zapped twice by taser, and was zip tied by the police. Bad look? Seems like a normal night.....

Standard in the Bigg Market up the toon.... Wink

by Geordie Thu May 02, 2024 9:15 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Courtney Lawes is on Dan Cole's and Ben Youngs' podcast again this week.

A listener questions asks whether Ollie Chessum's future is in the second row, or on the flank.

Lawes says Chessum is the closest to himself as a player, so think he'd do best on the flank. He thinks Chessum is on the light side for a lock (Cole pointed out he's around 120kg, which is more than Lawes thought). He says Chessum is probably more athletic, so had the work rate you need on the flank. he also thinks a genuine third line out option is essential at international level. If your pack has two options, and the opposition have three, then you won't win their ball, and will struggle to retain your own.

Earlier in the conversation, the trio were asked who is England's best tackler. They all agreed on Sam Underhill, saying he's technically so good.

Going to be interesting what they do with the back 5 to be honest.

Itoje is set in there.
Martin is someone who offers the essential brute physicality no other does, aside from maybe Tuima? So he becomes a starter....
Chessum...does he challenge Itoje...or as said ...he replaces Lawes.

by Pebbles Thu May 02, 2024 10:29 am

Geordie wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
mountain man wrote:Regarding Billy V, I listened to this weeks rugby union BBC podcast and apparently he didn't assault anyone or threaten them with anything etc. This though was according to Billy V (he wasn't on pod but this was via X or whatever). What actually happened no doubt will be somewhere in between.

Whatever it was, not a great look.
Can't possibly see how you think this was a bad look. All he did was walk into a bar at 3:00am, order and put down a half-dozen drinks in less than an hour, take his shirt off, annoy other customers, refuse to leave when asked, get zapped twice by taser, and was zip tied by the police. Bad look? Seems like a normal night.....

Standard in the Bigg Market up the toon....

Ah that brings back a memory of a stag do a decade ago devil

by formerly known as Sam Thu May 02, 2024 10:53 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Courtney Lawes is on Dan Cole's and Ben Youngs' podcast again this week.

A listener questions asks whether Ollie Chessum's future is in the second row, or on the flank.

Lawes says Chessum is the closest to himself as a player, so think he'd do best on the flank. He thinks Chessum is on the light side for a lock (Cole pointed out he's around 120kg, which is more than Lawes thought). He says Chessum is probably more athletic, so had the work rate you need on the flank. he also thinks a genuine third line out option is essential at international level. If your pack has two options, and the opposition have three, then you won't win their ball, and will struggle to retain your own.

Earlier in the conversation, the trio were asked who is England's best tackler. They all agreed on Sam Underhill, saying he's technically so good.

120kgs is just shy of 19 stone. I think Chessum's frame and mobility makes people assume he's lighter than he is. Being able to move between lock and blindside is a great option for him. Particularly at international level where he's a good option at 5, 6 or 19. The fact he can scrum behind the tighthead as well. Gives Borthers options with the bench and for different opposition.

by Geordie Thu May 02, 2024 10:59 am

Pebbles wrote:
Geordie wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
mountain man wrote:Regarding Billy V, I listened to this weeks rugby union BBC podcast and apparently he didn't assault anyone or threaten them with anything etc. This though was according to Billy V (he wasn't on pod but this was via X or whatever). What actually happened no doubt will be somewhere in between.

Whatever it was, not a great look.
Can't possibly see how you think this was a bad look. All he did was walk into a bar at 3:00am, order and put down a half-dozen drinks in less than an hour, take his shirt off, annoy other customers, refuse to leave when asked, get zapped twice by taser, and was zip tied by the police. Bad look? Seems like a normal night.....

Standard in the Bigg Market up the toon....

Ah that brings back a memory of a stag do a decade ago

Ha ha sadly you wouldnt recognise the place...they've tried to make it all continental and upmarket...not crazy place it used to be.

by nlpnlp Thu May 02, 2024 12:53 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Courtney Lawes is on Dan Cole's and Ben Youngs' podcast again this week.

A listener questions asks whether Ollie Chessum's future is in the second row, or on the flank.

Lawes says Chessum is the closest to himself as a player, so think he'd do best on the flank. He thinks Chessum is on the light side for a lock (Cole pointed out he's around 120kg, which is more than Lawes thought). He says Chessum is probably more athletic, so had the work rate you need on the flank. he also thinks a genuine third line out option is essential at international level. If your pack has two options, and the opposition have three, then you won't win their ball, and will struggle to retain your own.

Earlier in the conversation, the trio were asked who is England's best tackler. They all agreed on Sam Underhill, saying he's technically so good.

120kgs is just shy of 19 stone. I think Chessum's frame and mobility makes people assume he's lighter than he is. Being able to move between lock and blindside is a great option for him. Particularly at international level where he's a good option at 5, 6 or 19. The fact he can scrum behind the tighthead as well. Gives Borthers options with the bench and for different opposition.

I think the alarm bells should be ringing about Martin's injury record - for a 22 year old he has already racked up quite a list and not like Chessum's freak ankle break, but lots of niggly knee injuries. I am not sure if it is accurate but the Leicester Tigers website has Martin on just 6 appearances this season and he missed a lot of the 6 Nations. I don't see a lot of other second rows really putting their hands up - Ribbans and Moon are unavailable as playing abroad, Tizzard has gone backwards since joining Saracens, Cole and Isiekwe are hybrid 5/6s, Ewells has never really convinced and Hill is now injured but seemed to be out of the picture anyway. So on paper Borthwick may have options, but I am not sure the reality is so rosy.

by Geordie Thu May 02, 2024 12:57 pm

nlpnlp wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Courtney Lawes is on Dan Cole's and Ben Youngs' podcast again this week.

A listener questions asks whether Ollie Chessum's future is in the second row, or on the flank.

Lawes says Chessum is the closest to himself as a player, so think he'd do best on the flank. He thinks Chessum is on the light side for a lock (Cole pointed out he's around 120kg, which is more than Lawes thought). He says Chessum is probably more athletic, so had the work rate you need on the flank. he also thinks a genuine third line out option is essential at international level. If your pack has two options, and the opposition have three, then you won't win their ball, and will struggle to retain your own.

Earlier in the conversation, the trio were asked who is England's best tackler. They all agreed on Sam Underhill, saying he's technically so good.

120kgs is just shy of 19 stone. I think Chessum's frame and mobility makes people assume he's lighter than he is. Being able to move between lock and blindside is a great option for him. Particularly at international level where he's a good option at 5, 6 or 19. The fact he can scrum behind the tighthead as well. Gives Borthers options with the bench and for different opposition.

I think the alarm bells should be ringing about Martin's injury record - for a 22 year old he has already racked up quite a list and not like Chessum's freak ankle break, but lots of niggly knee injuries. I am not sure if it is accurate but the Leicester Tigers website has Martin on just 6 appearances this season and he missed a lot of the 6 Nations. I don't see a lot of other second rows really putting their hands up - Ribbans and Moon are unavailable as playing abroad, Tizzard has gone backwards since joining Saracens, Cole and Isiekwe are hybrid 5/6s, Ewells has never really convinced and Hill is now injured but seemed to be out of the picture anyway. So on paper Borthwick may have options, but I am not sure the reality is so rosy.

You have Rus Tuima...huge unit. His fitness will need looked at for this level though.

by formerly known as Sam Thu May 02, 2024 2:23 pm

nlpnlp wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Courtney Lawes is on Dan Cole's and Ben Youngs' podcast again this week.

A listener questions asks whether Ollie Chessum's future is in the second row, or on the flank.

Lawes says Chessum is the closest to himself as a player, so think he'd do best on the flank. He thinks Chessum is on the light side for a lock (Cole pointed out he's around 120kg, which is more than Lawes thought). He says Chessum is probably more athletic, so had the work rate you need on the flank. he also thinks a genuine third line out option is essential at international level. If your pack has two options, and the opposition have three, then you won't win their ball, and will struggle to retain your own.

Earlier in the conversation, the trio were asked who is England's best tackler. They all agreed on Sam Underhill, saying he's technically so good.

120kgs is just shy of 19 stone. I think Chessum's frame and mobility makes people assume he's lighter than he is. Being able to move between lock and blindside is a great option for him. Particularly at international level where he's a good option at 5, 6 or 19. The fact he can scrum behind the tighthead as well. Gives Borthers options with the bench and for different opposition.

I think the alarm bells should be ringing about Martin's injury record - for a 22 year old he has already racked up quite a list and not like Chessum's freak ankle break, but lots of niggly knee injuries. I am not sure if it is accurate but the Leicester Tigers website has Martin on just 6 appearances this season and he missed a lot of the 6 Nations. I don't see a lot of other second rows really putting their hands up - Ribbans and Moon are unavailable as playing abroad, Tizzard has gone backwards since joining Saracens, Cole and Isiekwe are hybrid 5/6s, Ewells has never really convinced and Hill is now injured but seemed to be out of the picture anyway. So on paper Borthwick may have options, but I am not sure the reality is so rosy.

George Martin has had repeated issues with his knee. He's only played 6 Tigers games this season because he came back from both the World Cup and 6N with an injury. He played 3/5 in the 6N, again coming back from an injury.

Chessum's ability to play as a tighthead or a loosehead lock really comes to the fore here. Knowing he can slot in and do that job up front if he needs to does make life easier for England and means Coles can be a feasible back up. Ewels is in the form of his life so might earn another go.

We've got a few good young locks on the way through so it's not a massive issue.

by doctor_grey Thu May 02, 2024 10:38 pm

I hope Leicester and England give Martin a wide berth between now the the start of next season. At pending his injuries.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri May 03, 2024 2:36 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:...I think Chessum's frame and mobility makes people assume he's lighter than he is...

Dan Cole think's Chessum's face makes people underestimate his athleticism. Coles says Chessum looks cooked after five minutes, and you assume he's on the verge of passing out. He then proceeds to do whatever is asked of him, at a high work rate, for the rest of the match.

by Geordie Fri May 03, 2024 8:13 am

I think the 4 locks will be Itoje, Chessum, Coles and Martin. And if Martin is deemed not fit for the tour then i think they'll have a look at Rus Tuima.

Theres some big units coming through from the Age grades so we'll see which ones actually make the jump to the seniors / prem to a good level.
Jury is out on Ben Bamber at Sale..hes got quite a bit of gametime this season..9 prem games i think...but had mixed performances when ive seen him. See how Sale can bring him on.

by formerly known as Sam Fri May 03, 2024 8:29 am

doctor_grey wrote:I hope Leicester and England give Martin a wide berth between now the the start of next season. At pending his injuries.

He played last weekend against Bristol and he played well.

by mountain man Fri May 03, 2024 8:50 am

Squad for tour will depend upon how Borthwick sees it. Is it a development tour to try out new players or is it a tour to consolidate what was started in 6N and go from there.

Personally I'd sacrifice potential win(s) to give new players a try out. Even with what might be deemed 1st choice 15/23 for each match, beating NZ in NZ be a massive ask. So is it limit losses or use it as a way for new caps to gain Test match experience.

We can all guess who might or might not be in squad or those we think should/shouldn't be included.

Likes of Itoje will surely need a rest I would think.

by Geordie Fri May 03, 2024 9:27 am

I dont think he'll go with a "trial" squad. I think it'll be full choice with a few of the fringe players he wants to look at getting a shot in a settled team. Ie Pearson, Maybe a front rower or 2 and possibly Ojomoh etc. Him and his team will know wht they're after and who they want to have a look at.

Dont forget this is still a team in rebuild aswell. They're still getting used to the tactics and such...They'll want to continue on the good steps they took at the later part of the 6n...

Adn theres a load of youngsters in it already...Martin, Dan, CCS, Waboso, Freeman...etc etc etc

by mountain man Fri May 03, 2024 9:34 am

I don't think it will be a trial squad but also likes of Martin, Dan, Freeman do have some experience already of Int rugby. Those guys are also young so I just wonder if the older players might be rested somewhat, likes of Itoje who isn't in Dan Cole territory but packs in an awful lot of rugby every season.

Summer tour is ideal time to experiment somewhat *, nothing on games really(plus no-one really expects wins in NZ) as opposed to autumn games which to me are more important.

*emphasis on the somewhat

by Geordie Fri May 03, 2024 9:59 am

But you need to change the attitude from not expecting to win in NZ to ...we're going there to win. The WC winning side did that.

I agree some of the seniors have huge workloads, like Itoje ...but its better to bring the youngsters in one or two at a time in to a settled side rather than flooding the team with 5- 12 cap players on an away tur to NZ.

Ironically, for a coach much maligned by certain fans for not changing much he has brought in a lot of new players.

by mountain man Fri May 03, 2024 10:16 am

Just being realistic. I don't think Eng will win in NZ. Very few teams do. Look how good Ireland have been last few years and their series win there was absolutely massive achievement.

It's not impossible, just very unlikely I think at this stage of team development.

As for RWC side, at the time they were #1 team in world and fully deserving of that title. This Eng team some way off that.

by Geordie Fri May 03, 2024 12:36 pm

mountain man wrote:Just being realistic. I don't think Eng will win in NZ. Very few teams do. Look how good Ireland have been last few years and their series win there was absolutely massive achievement.

It's not impossible, just very unlikely I think at this stage of team development.

As for RWC side, at the time they were #1 team in world and fully deserving of that title. This Eng team some way off that.

It is...but they all had strong mentality...thats what i want to see in this team developing. That hardened mental edge...they respect all, but fear nothing.

i just want to see the team continuing on from the 6n progress...adding a bit more in attack and defence, giving Waboso, Dan, CCS etc more critical gametime and looking at other positions such as TH where we are struggling a bit. I want to see the tour as being positive even if its losses.

by doctor_grey Fri May 03, 2024 2:45 pm

mountain man wrote:Well as I said previously, this probably happens a dozen times every Saturday night but as it was a famous(ish) sportsman it makes news.

Fact he didn't threaten anyone with bar stool or whatever shows the initial reports in media just always try and sensationalise stories like this which never help said person in middle of it. Yes he was a clown for way he acted etc but he ended up with a 250Euro fine and sent home.
In other news some maniac killed a 14 year old with a sword and severely injured 4 others.

*edit this in reply to Doctor Grey

All I said was it's a bad look (OK very bad). But people in the spotlight have to know the spotlight cuts two ways. And, yes, they have to hold themselves to a different standard, fair or not. As you said he looked like a clown. That's all...

by Geordie Sat May 04, 2024 6:06 pm

Zac Mercer for the NZ tour....yes or no?

by formerly known as Sam Sat May 04, 2024 6:17 pm

Geordie wrote:Zac Mercer for the NZ tour....yes or no?

At the minute, no. Didn't like the whining in the press, bad attitude. If his form to the end of the season is scintillating and he's bringing physicality to his defence then might change. Right now I'd take Barbeary instead.

by Geordie Sat May 04, 2024 6:31 pm

Yeah that's a fair assessment...Barbeary is more physical and his breakdown work Is excellent...

by Geordie Thu May 09, 2024 2:35 pm

I see Ollie Chessum is having an op...guess rhat puts him out of the tour to NZ....

An opportunity for a few Locks to push on to the tour..

by formerly known as Sam Thu May 09, 2024 4:28 pm

Geordie wrote:I see Ollie Chessum is having an op...guess rhat puts him out of the tour to NZ....

An opportunity for a few Locks to push on to the tour..

He's had the op, out for the rest of the season and is targeting pre season for his return. Probably good for him in the long run as it's been a long season for him and this way the rest of his body will also get a break and then a full pre season.

England lose a real asset and a versatile one at that though.

by doctor_grey Thu May 09, 2024 10:40 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:I see Ollie Chessum is having an op...guess rhat puts him out of the tour to NZ....

An opportunity for a few Locks to push on to the tour..

He's had the op, out for the rest of the season and is targeting pre season for his return. Probably good for him in the long run as it's been a long season for him and this way the rest of his body will also get a break and then a full pre season.

England lose a real asset and a versatile one at that though.

That's a real loss. What kind of op did he have? He has a terrific future.

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