Barry John Lions '71 40 years on...

This just popped up on the AB's website:

http://www.allblacks.com/news/16565/King-John-40-years-on-from-Lions-triumph

My only actual memory of the series (I was 8..) was seeing Laurie Mains kick a 50 meter penalty from half way on the touchline in black and white.

Two things come to mind from this story. I didnt realise that even at that time this was as big back in the NH as its describes. The other is the idea of pitting the best of the 4 Home Unions together seems a tragic one when the tour is of NZ.

In 38 tests they've won 6, and only one in the last 3 tours since test 2 in '77. Besides thinking the obvious that the AB's must have been the better sides, in considering a lot of the comments on these boards I get the feeling that a significant contributing factor to the results are that the combined energy going into the selection, training and actual touring and playing of the matches isn't as cohesive as it should be, even though on tour the players and squad always seem to look like a team that has it together.

On these boards a good % is about what England do and Wales dont etc, more so than any of our teams. There is a bit of jabbing at NZ and back again but between the SANZAR countries we're generally supportive of each other.

2 questions on this. One for the NH posters- is there anything in this suggestion and one more for the SH posters...

Would a Lions like SANZAR selection, touring perhaps the NH and other areas- Argentina and some of Europe be a good idea?

Barry "The King" John wrote:"Even though we kept on winning our warm-up games, people Down Under were still sceptical...until we really put down our marker by thrashing New Zealand champions Wellington 47-9 a week ahead of the first Test.

"We shook New Zealand rugby to its core by winning the opening Test in Dunedin."

I dont think a combined SANZA would be any better than a decent sole All Black, Bok or Wallaby side. As to be fair a Lions team is not often much better than a decent NH team, certainly that has been evident in the last three tours.

Yes most tours they kept winning the warmup games then fell at the first test- thats why there was this thinking.

Thats the reason I asked about the SANZAR team- I dont think a combined Oz/NZ/ Bok team would be better than an AB side purely because of the Lions example, but logically it should.

If we took the AB's for a start then had the choice of replacing some with better SA or Oz players a better team should result. Down here its all about the level we play at and the only way to go to another level higher than 3N is logically a combined 3N team.

Its just whether the cohesiveness, lack of nationalistic pride or history, 'dissolves' the overall impact of actually having better players on the field than an individual country's side. Clearly it does with the Lions. I just wonder if we're different in that respect.

Lions 1971 first[and only]side to beat the All Blacks,Won 2-1 ,1 drawn.
From there loss to the Boks in 1970 the 70`s was the worst decade for them since I started watching them in 1953.
Coming after two decades from 1950 when they only lost a single series to the Boks narrowly in 1960.and under Freddie Allan a 100% win record it was a great come down.
Most of the greats were gone,Colin Meads was still there at the end of his career playing with only one arm virtually due to injuries.His locking partner Peter Whiting went on to become an All Black great.
It was a very good Lions side with a lot of the great Welsh team of the era in it.Strangely enough that Welsh Side when they toured NZ in 1969 were rated one of the worst to tour there.
Carwyn James was a great coach but never weirdly enough coached Wales [Politics]?
The All Blacks toured 1971-2 to Europe was the last full size tour here,and one of the least successful.

emack2 wrote:
Carwyn James was a great coach but never weirdly enough coached Wales [Politics]?

Yup. He was way ahead of his time and thought the Coach should full reign over the selectors and the final say. Funnily enough, the big wigs at the WRU didn't like that and kept (possibly) the best coach Wales ever produced out of the most important job. Wouldn't be the last time politics hindered the game in Wales..

Was it just rugby politics? or was it more to do with the fact he was allegedly gay.

Really? Well, ruddy 'eck. Anyone else know anything about this?

Draigoch wrote:

emack2 wrote:
Carwyn James was a great coach but never weirdly enough coached Wales [Politics]?

Yup. He was way ahead of his time and thought the Coach should full reign over the selectors and the final say. Funnily enough, the big wigs at the WRU didn't like that and kept (possibly) the best coach Wales ever produced out of the most important job. Wouldn't be the last time politics hindered the game in Wales..

Aye

Thatcher did a remarkable job too

emack2

When the Welsh tourists were thrashed in New Zealand in 1969 it made big waves back here in Wales, which I remember well. It was the first time Wales had toured New Zealand, in fact only their second tour overseas, and it was very disappointing. They didn't lose any provincial games but were well-beaten in both Tests. As you say, in New Zealand the Welsh team was viewed as absolutely terrible, partly because, before the tour, expectations in both countries had been high.

During the inquest on the tour it became clear that some of the Welsh forwards, who had managed well in the Five Nations, were not up to taking on the All Blacks, physically or mentally. Actually, it had been noticed during the tour. There wasn't a future for some in the national side. As for young backs like Barry John and Gareth Edwards, they still had much to learn. Also, although Wales had pioneered national team coaching in Europe, it was still a new idea.

Between 1969 and 1971, under Clive Rowlands as coach - who remained in that post until 1974 - great efforts were made to improve standards and attitudes, and new players were brought in. The style of attacking rugby pioneered by the London Welsh club was adapted and used by the national squad. This succeeded so well and rapidly that the 1971 team which beat France in Paris for the Grand Slam was, in my opinion, the best side Wales has ever had - better than the later 1972 and 1978 teams which lost narrowly at home to the All Blacks. Incidentally, Barry John retired in the spring of 1972 before the match in the autumn against New Zealand.

As you say, many of the Welsh side were in the Lions team which won the 1971 Test series in New Zealand, coming up against the All Blacks in a transitional phase. From a British point of view, it was a happy coincidence of two things - a Lions team with some great players at the top of their game and a New Zealand side not yet rebuilt or firing on all cylinders.

Optimist Sir Terry Mclean ,in his book The Red Dragons of Wales he lamented the standard of Welsh Forward play.Comparing it to the East Wales side that played the great 1967 side.
Can`t quite remember the result it was either a draw or a narrow win for the AB`s.
In the years 1966-9 Freddie Allen revived the Kiwi style of running Rugby,based on the young Backs of the 1963 side.
With some of the greatest ever All Blacks forwards,KelTremain,Brian Lochore,Ken Gray,Colin Meads etc.

Incidentally Carwyn James wrote a coaching book "How the Lions Won" I have a copy in my Collection.
It rates with those of Ron Jarden,Izak Van Heerden,and Freddie Allens as oneof the best of it`s kind I have read.

emack2 wrote:Incidentally Carwyn James wrote a coaching book "How the Lions Won" I have a copy in my Collection.
It rates with those of Ron Jarden,Izak Van Heerden,and Freddie Allens as oneof the best of it`s kind I have read.

A great book, a great man, one of the first but still one of the most inspiring coaches.

72-73 to the UK I think Alan.

That was what I would consider our worst tour ever but even then only the 10-10 draw with Ireland prevented a first grand slam after beating Eng, Wales and Scotland- not bad for our worst ever.

It was bad more so for the county losses, the loss to France and most of all the Keith Murdoch incident. He NEVER forgave himself and hid out in the Aussie outback for the rest of his days. Truly tragic to have to think he should have to live with that burden forever when you look at what clowns today get away with

For those not old enough

https://youtu.be/0YXGBT6ez-k

there is also a play or musical i think about the whole episode...

Taylorman,1972-3 that is correct,1935 was worse but even I am not old enough to have seen that.
1953-4 was another in transition but was the precursor of a great side,the first to beat the Boks.
NO All Black has done the Grand Slam all 5 nations being beaten,but 1925 and 1967 were unbeaten in tests.Scotland refused to play in 1925 over money on 1905 tour.Ireland 1967 did`nt play because of foot and mouth restictions.
No Bok side I can remember failed to do the grand Slam.

emack2

Re. East Wales v New Zealand in 1967, the result was a 3-3 draw - one try each. Would have been 5-5 today. Tony Steel scored for the All Blacks and Frank Wilson for East Wales. It was the closest result of the tour for New Zealand.
East Wales was captained by Gareth Edwards, then aged only 20, and included Barry John who was 22. Three days later they were the Barbarians half-backs against the All Blacks at Twickenham.

emack2 wrote: No Bok side I can remember failed to do the grand Slam.

Emack2 - If you're referring to a Grand Slam iof the 'Home Nations', I know the Boks failed in 1970 (won 2 - England & Scotland, drew 2 - Wales & Ireland)

There's a 30 minute programme about the 1971 Lions tour (well 20 mins once you take out the adverts) on ITV1 Wales tonight at 19:30

1971 - http://www.tvguide.co.uk/detail.asp?id=96559822.

No all Bok sides to 1960-1 and that was all 5 nations.

With a quick check SA in UK looks like this where at least 4 of the 5 played:
1906- played 4 (no Fr)- won 2 (lost scot, drew Eng)
1912-13- played and won all 5
1931- played and won 4 (no Fr)
1951- played and won all 5
1961- played 5, won 4 and drew France
1998- played 4 (no Fr) lost Eng

Cant see attempts since where at least 4 are involved.
So that makes it 4 with 2 including France.

Sound about right? 4 all up?
Odd isn't it. they have all theirs 61 and back, we have all ours 78 and forward.

While Im at the stats page: AB's
1905: played 5, won 4- lost Wales
1924: Play 4 won 4 (didnt play Scots)
1935/36-Played 4 won 2 (lost Eng/ Wal)
1953/54- played 5 won 3 (lost Fr/ Wales)
1963/64- Played 5 won 4 (drew scot)
1972/73- played 5 won 3 (lost Fr/ drew Ire)
1967- played 4 won 4 (didnt play ire- foot and mouth)
1978- played 4 won 4 (didnt play France though AB wins over France both sides of this one)
1995 WCup- played 4 won 4 (no France- fortunate to play all 4)
2005- played 4 won 4 on AI's- didnt play France
2008- Played 4 won 4 on AI's- didnt play France
2009- Played 4 won 4 (didnt play scot)
2010- played 4 won 4 (didnt play France)

Stats might be a little out- did a quick run over them

so all up in terms of the home unions: 5 G slams.
could have been 8 if played the matches 24 (scot), Ire (67) and 2009 (scot).
Considering Ire and scot have never beaten the Abs chances were they would probably have won those though I know Scots were good in 1925.

I only consider full tours count,and a grand slam is all 5 Nations not 4,by that criteria i am correct None.