606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: BACK 3

First topic message reminder :

Morning all.
Hope everyone had a good weekend.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen
Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings and Ryan
Reddan, Stringer and Murray
Sexton and O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy and Wallace

We are looking to select 6 back 3 players. The 6 with the most votes will be the ones selected as per normal.

Bowe- An astounding finisher and deceptively quick with good acceleration and a swerve more than a step. Excellent at joining the line in midfield and the closest thing we have to Ashton in terms of running support lines. Good defence and an excellent fielder. Not a great kicker however and this hasn't been a great season for Bowe. Can play 13 and 15 at a push.
Earls- Lightening quick (fastest in the squad?) and second only to Bowe in terms of finishing in the Irish squad. Versatile in that he has international experience at wing, centre and fullback. Good kicker of the ball and an average fielder. Excellent at broken field running. Good defence for the most part also.
Trimble- Brings a different element to the back3. Very physical and good in the contact area, he makes yards after contact has been initiated. Deceptively quick and has improved his core skills. Good at cutting lines into the midfield. Not a great kicker or fielder but has improved here in recent times. Defence is generally good.
McFadden- Not much game time this year but when playing has excelled. Can play 11-14 comfortably. Very quick and good at making yards once contact has been taken. Good feet and can kick from hand and floor well. Good defence and good distributing skills. Lack of expereience may stand against him.
Fitzgerald- Out of form for the season just gone. Has ruined many try scoring chances and has made simple errors in contact, passing and support lines. Excellent defender and while not a great sprinter is very quick over 40m and has exceptional agility. Versatile in that he has international experience playing 11-15 although to differing levels of success. Not a good finisher. Ok kicker and poor fielder.
Kearney- No game time since November. Poor form since 2009 in many peoples opinion. A fantastic kicker and fielder and very quick in a straight line. Poor counterattacker and broken field runner. Doesn't pass or offload often enough and tends to run straight into defenders. Not the most adept 15 at joining the attacking line either. Poor defence. Has got big game experience.
Murphy- No game time since November. Had been in good form for the tigers. A leader in the team. Not physically impressive, not overly quick or strong. Has improved his fielding and tackling somewhat over the last couple of seasons. Very creative and excellent at joing the line and a good counterattacker. An average fielder and kicker of the ball for an international 15. Not as much of a loose canon as once was.
Jones- No international or HCup experience. Excellent form for Munster. Excellent defence and quite creative in attack be in counterattacking or joining the line. Very agile and fairly quick too. Not the greatest fielder and an average kicker of the ball. Great hands when joining the line.
Duffy- Steady but not a World Class player. Can play 15 and 13. Good defence and a good fielder and kicker but not as effective with ball in hand. Not exceptionally quick, agile or stong but has a calm head and generally makes the right decisions.

NB: Horgan has not been included because his injury will see him out during the start of the RWC.

This is the last article in this series. Tomorrow I will begin a new series working out who our best starting XV are out of the squad that we on 606v2 have chosen.

I agree Feagh, that he has to produce a good display immediatly.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

valjester wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leinsterbaby-

I don't understand why you'd bring Fitz in this situation and not Jones?

Are you happy enough that kearney and Earls will cover 15?
Do you not think Jones deserves the place on merit more than Fitz?

I'm not a Fitz fan but Jones is completely untested at international level. If he was good enough Kidney would have given him a chance in the 6 nations while Kearney was injured. Jones is a decent player but possibly a little lightweight for international rugby.

Believe it or not merit doesn't count for much sometimes with Ireland. If it did Leo Cullen would have more caps.

Jones was also injured during the world cup, cullen would have more caps if he hadn't been behind doc, poc and mok for his career; three lions, cullen is not better than them and he is not up to international level.

I agree with the points of superunclear and rodders (except the good one on one tackler bit) but feel Kearney should be brought as he offers something different
So what if he is untested, others have been tested and failed.

pete Kearney would have no problem tackling genia from behind, he can do them tackles, but he wouldn't catch genia who is rapid.
super/stag Wilkinson was brought into the training squad before he was actually qualified for Ireland, he would probably have played for Ireland on the north american tour if he had been available. Horan has no form, he has struggled outside of the scrums since coming back, why is so mad to say that he might be brought as 5th choice in the event that they go for 5 props. I'm just going on the 43 man squad and what smal has said in the past year. If I'm honest I'd have paddy mcallister of ulster ahead of both of them.

gibson What does how many world cups I've seen got to do with anything? Jones has come back from injury and played well, he has performed under Kidney before. Kidney rates him, he brought Jones to munster and the churchill cup despite limited time for leinster. If Kidney trusts a player he will put a lot of faith in them and Jones is one of those players.

notch/stag With Jones I'm not just basing it on form. Maybe with wilkinson I am but the whole class is permanent thing is nonsense, age catches up on players and they can't beat time. Stag I never said it should be a 17/13 split, I should suggested it as a possibility.

Cullen is of course up to international standard he is a very lock has won multiple HCups and domestic titles. What a ridiculous statement Val.

Kearney is very fast
eg: Try saving tackle against the BaaBaa's in 08 in thomond park watch a clip of it before you disagree.

Secondly why would Kearney be behind Genia? That makes zero sense if Kearney is 15. What I was saying is that if Genia went for the corner I'd expect Kearney to be able to get across to cover but wouldn't expect the same of Murphy

Cullen is a great player for leinster and I like him as a player but he has never been better than poc or mok and they are they players he is up against. A poc cullen parternship would mean poc having to do the dirty work. Poc gets criticised for not making yards in contact, cullen gets blown backwards at times in the hec. He just isn't physical enough to be as good as poc at international level. I'm probably being overly harsh but it is in response to those who said he merits more caps; he doesn't.

Kearney is fast, genia is faster. If you go for that baabaa's example you will see why I have kearney chasing, Ireland had possession and lost it, same as against south africa when juan smith when he was on the otherside of the pitch in an offensive formation before we turned the ball over.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Jeez Robnoxious isnt too popular around here! His flaws are extremely overstated. He has suffered from injuries and form all the while playing in two very defensive set ups (leinster doesnt really count this year as he has been injuried for most of it) the last while but the guy has many great attributes, and will be our first choice 15.

Anyway not really interested in arguing the toss to change peoples minds - I fully expect him to be in the 30 man squad and to get more game time at 15 in the warm ups than any other contender. He will of course be under pressure to produce and I believe he will.

Kidney has no clear choice of full back and only has 3-4 games to get a player re/established so does anybody really believe he will tinker around with Earls again (unless Kearney bombs) or give every one a "go" durning the warm ups?? Come on??!! Wont happen, if I was him (and I could be...) I would persist with Kearney and if he shows well, and re-establishes himself as our dead cert 15 starter I believe jones will then be called upon to accompany him.

But yes I accept that he must produce straight away in the warm-ups.
If not it could be Earls at 15.

Kearney has such self confidence that he will slot straight back in with few problems, I've be making that argument re kearney's form for the last few pages to no avail. Jones is the same injuries and lay offs don't effect them because the have complete confidence in their abilities, sort of like bod. Pity Fitz seems to have a load of confidence but still struggles to come back. Whereas earls has no confidence so always takes a while to get back near his best.

I don't understand how you don't rate Cullen. He and POC both make no yards in contact there only purpose with ball in hand is to win it in the lineout and to secure it by short carries it seems.

Val, there's no doubt about it, you are being overly harsh on him.

For a second imagine that DOC was the standard of POC and vice vearsa.
Cullen would beat POC to the starting lock spot easily.

Cullen is better than DOC it's just he's not up against DOC he is up against POC due to what kind of lock he is.

valjester wrote:
Kearney has such self confidence that he will slot straight back in with few problems

Thats the problem though, we don't want Kearney to just slot back in because he was rubbish before he got injured.

What we need Kearnery to show is that not only is he fully fit and physically up to the demands of international rugby but that there is much more too his game than just catching the ball and kicking it away again. He certainly wasn't able to do it before he got injured so he has a lot to prove.

roddersm wrote:

valjester wrote:
Kearney has such self confidence that he will slot straight back in with few problems

Thats the problem though, we don't want Kearney to just slot back in because he was rubbish before he got injured.

What we need Kearnery to show is that not only is he fully fit and physically up to the demands of international rugby but that there is much more too his game than just catching the ball and kicking it away again. He certainly wasn't able to do it before he got injured so he has a lot to prove.

AGREE!!!

Well he couldn't do anything but catch and kick after 09 Lions and before his injury.

roddersm wrote:

valjester wrote:
Kearney has such self confidence that he will slot straight back in with few problems

Thats the problem though, we don't want Kearney to just slot back in because he was rubbish before he got injured.

What we need Kearnery to show is that not only is he fully fit and physically up to the demands of international rugby but that there is much more too his game than just catching the ball and kicking it away again. He certainly wasn't able to do it before he got injured so he has a lot to prove.

Well I disagree with the kearney being rubbish thing but I've already given my reasons on this thread so I'll leave it.

pete poc mightn't make a lot of yards but he is never knocked backwards and he always presents clean ball. Poc's counterrucking and general play means he is like another backrow for Ireland when it comes to winning turnovers and slowing the ball at the breakdown. Leo is one of the best lineout forwards around but I'd still take poc ahead of him in that department. Poc is able to play doc's game, he started of doing that for ireland with mok in the 'poc' role. But coaches rate doc higher, he has been on two lions tours and captained a lions team, and he is vital to the way ireland play. I might be overly harsh on cullen but most irish fans are harsh on doc. The stats speak for themselves he is always in double figures for tackles made near the top of the irish team, he is usually the first in to protect the ball and first one in to assist in a tackle. I know most won't agree with me but I don't think cullen deserves more caps than he has and although you could argue that he would have more if he wasn't behind two lions, Ireland would be a poorer position if cullen was starting. If poc gets injured start cullen but Ireland will lose a lot and personnally I'd prefer ryan, tuohy or mclaughlin on the bench covering lock as they can match the physicality required at international level.

Catching them high and kicking them long is not a negative attribute of a fullback- in fact its one of the basic requirements.

Listen I agree RK hasnt been in great from but this is the world cup and we have no clear choice, some great debates on here over the squad but sometimes its paralysis by analysis, RK deserves his shot at 15 in the warm uos and Ill wager anything he will be our WC 15.


Against Austrailia you need a 15 who fully understands his position defensively first and foremost (the others dont) and judging by Coopers and Genias (poor) up and unders we need fb who is solid in the air.

Kearney will travel.

I am not for one second underestimating DOC contribution I know all to well about his unseen work that people can miss, I've made sure I haven't. Look back to my anology on the types of players the three of them are and maybe you will see my point.

Feagh- agree but it's nice to have a 15 who can also attack the line and link with the rest of the back3.

Pete,
The only other realistic option who firstly meets the basic requirements of a fullback is Jones and he is inexperienced (but I think he should go as second choice).
Depends on what you see as the primary functions of a FB I suppose.

Any Kearney isnt as bad at counter attacking as you are making out (although not perfect) but yes the emphasis has changed to counter attacking- do you think Rob isnt aware of this.
Like I said he will have to prove he is up to it in the warms ups but I believe he is the front runner at the minute.

I would like to say earls or Jones is, but if Kearney shows in the warm ups that he is

a) fit
b) can still catch and kick as well as he could
c) counterattack

then I'd play him.

For me he has a lot to prove however.

On another note: Ben Robinson first choice Aussie prop is out of the RWC, knee injury.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Against Austrailia you need a 15 who fully understands his position defensively first and foremost (the others dont) and judging by Coopers and Genias (poor) up and unders we need fb who is solid in the air.

On what basis are you suggesting the other full back canditates don't fully understand the defensive positioning requirements?

Felix Jones in particular has shown himself to be very solid under the high ball and although there are some question marks around earls I haven't seen anything to suggest that he isn't secure under the high ball.

Murphy is often very well positioned although his head on tackling is very poor.

In fact the only player who has categorically shown that they aren't up to the job defensively is Luke Fitzgerald.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I am not for one second underestimating DOC contribution I know all to well about his unseen work that people can miss, I've made sure I haven't. Look back to my anology on the types of players the three of them are and maybe you will see my point.

Feagh- agree but it's nice to have a 15 who can also attack the line and link with the rest of the back3.

I see your point but I disagree with it. I'll just leave it here no point going on and on.

On the full back issue, I'd have no fears with earls at full back, I think he has improved under the high ball and bowe would help him out. But the main thing about earls at full back is that it would mean we could include trimble as well. Earls and bowe have to start for me but trimble would bring a bit of physicality that we miss without horgan.

Earls is a brilliant counter attacker/broken filed player but is a winger. He has not enough positional experience to play FB at international level, yes he did well when there in the 6 nations but thats not enough for me and he wasnt really tested "positionally" anyway.
Earls kicking and fielding arent up to test level either. His positional awareness would be targeted all day by the Australia.
He may be up to it, but a risk I think is best avoided if possible.

Rodders
I have said Jones is the only other FB contender, but yes he hasnt got the experience of test level behind him, so yes RK is ahead of him here.
Murphy wont travel for different reasons and I agree lacks physicality.

Defense is about tackling fielding positioning and clearing your lines. Fitz are you sure?

Yeah Horgan is a big loss considering how physicall he is and how well he was playing. Also there aren't many wingers like him.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Earls is a brilliant counter attacker/broken filed player but is a winger. He has not enough positional experience to play FB at international level, yes he did well when there in the 6 nations but thats not enough for me and he wasnt really tested "positionally" anyway.
Earls kicking and fielding arent up to test level either. His positional awareness would be targeted all day by the Australia.
He may be up to it, but a risk I think is best avoided if possible.

Rodders
I have said Jones is the only other FB contender, but yes he hasnt got the experience of test level behind him, so yes RK is ahead of him here.
Murphy wont travel for different reasons and I agree lacks physicality.

Defense is about tackling fielding positioning and clearing your lines. Fitz are you sure?

Earls fielding has improved a lot, he is fine at international level, not kearney level but grand for international level. His kicking is one of his strenghts, and he can kick the mile a mile. If australia kicked to him all day, Ireland would benefit, genia and cooper are brilliant players but there kicking can be quite erratic and their chasers don't put on a lot of pressure. With bowe there to help out he would do fine. He broke on to the scene as a fullback and although he hasn't played there in a while many felt he would be his best position, especially the lions management. The positives he brings to the position would outway the possible negatives.

Kidney gets slated for not trusting youth, yet everyone is writing players off due to lack of experience if this was australia they would back players like Jones.

Also pete, horgan was never going to make the squad, he only plays 14 and bowe is better than him, I was more commenting on the type of player he is.

valjester wrote:Kidney gets slated for not trusting youth, yet everyone is writing players off due to lack of experience if this was australia they would back players like Jones.

Their young players get picked on the back of playing Super Rugby, Felix Jones has played Magners League rugby. That is a massive gulf in the quality of opposition right there.

And who's slating Kidney for not trusting in youth? He shouldn't be blindly trusting in youth. World Cups are all about experience; look at Enaglnd in 2003 and 2007, South Africa in 2007 etc.

Could and should have made it in place of McF and Fitz on merit IMO.

Pete,
When are we going to get a results thread from this? The voting seems more or less cleancut now and people are starting to talk about props and second rows...

In other news: Murray has been overtaken by O'Leary in the Scrumhalf poll.

MMC-
Moving on from this after lunch don't worry will have more things for people to discuss I promise.

Notch wrote:
Their young players get picked on the back of playing Super Rugby, Felix Jones has played Magners League rugby. That is a massive gulf in the quality of opposition right there.

And who's slating Kidney for not trusting in youth? He shouldn't be blindly trusting in youth. World Cups are all about experience; look at Enaglnd in 2003 and 2007, South Africa in 2007 etc.

Ah thats nonsence Notch. Jones was aruably the best player on the pitch against the reigning European champions a few weeks back. If he can handle everything Leinster can throw at him then he's ready for international level.

We've got plenty of experience in the squad already Notch, it's form and youth we need. No one had heard of Jonah Lomu prior to the 1995 WC and he did alright.

Tell you what. I have to congratulate not only you for this fantastic set of articles pete, but to the 606v2 powers that be also for adding a polling system to the forum.

It's especially useful for threads like this where people are picking players for a team or squad. Spiffing...

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:
Their young players get picked on the back of playing Super Rugby, Felix Jones has played Magners League rugby. That is a massive gulf in the quality of opposition right there.

And who's slating Kidney for not trusting in youth? He shouldn't be blindly trusting in youth. World Cups are all about experience; look at Enaglnd in 2003 and 2007, South Africa in 2007 etc.

Ah thats nonsence Notch. Jones was aruably the best player on the pitch against the reigning European champions a few weeks back. If he can handle everything Leinster can throw at him then he's ready for international level.

We've got plenty of experience in the squad already Notch, it's form and youth we need. No one had heard of Jonah Lomu prior to the 1995 WC and he did alright.

I agree Jones has played leinster twice and come through both matches fine. As I said before Kidney trusts him and that means if he preforms he is likely to go imo.

Notch don't forget Jones has played European Cup and Ireland A also. He is also starting for Munster and played in several knockout matches this season.

Cheers MMC I...I...I don't quite know what to say!

haha

Earls fielding has improved a lot, he is fine at international level, not kearney level but grand for international level. His kicking is one of his strenghts, and he can kick the mile a mile. If australia kicked to him all day, Ireland would benefit, genia and cooper are brilliant players but there kicking can be quite erratic and their chasers don't put on a lot of pressure. With bowe there to help out he would do fine. He broke on to the scene as a fullback and although he hasn't played there in a while many felt he would be his best position, especially the lions management. The positives he brings to the position would outway the possible negatives.

Kidney gets slated for not trusting youth, yet everyone is writing players off due to lack of experience if this was australia they would back players like Jones.

Also pete, horgan was never going to make the squad, he only plays 14 and bowe is better than him, I was more commenting on the type of player he is.[/quote]


Fine at international level - it hasnt been proven, but you are right he could well have improved but not the time to find out.
Many thought that was his best position, including the lions management was full back...... and many along with many the lions management were proven wrong - he doesnt even play club full back.
A side issue
Kidney rightly got slated for not giving youth a chance SOB (and Mike Ross) in the AIs. That argument just doesnt wash with me now. The time to blend young players was last years 6 nations, A1s and cementing this years 6 nations. (Kidney eventually did this but largely due to injury and Ross Sexton and SOB grasping their limited chances). Bolters aside ala Murray and Jones the warm ups should be for cementing the squad and starting team.

As I said above Jones is one of the two fullbacks I would take.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Earls fielding has improved a lot, he is fine at international level, not kearney level but grand for international level. His kicking is one of his strenghts, and he can kick the mile a mile. If australia kicked to him all day, Ireland would benefit, genia and cooper are brilliant players but there kicking can be quite erratic and their chasers don't put on a lot of pressure. With bowe there to help out he would do fine. He broke on to the scene as a fullback and although he hasn't played there in a while many felt he would be his best position, especially the lions management. The positives he brings to the position would outway the possible negatives.

Kidney gets slated for not trusting youth, yet everyone is writing players off due to lack of experience if this was australia they would back players like Jones.

Also pete, horgan was never going to make the squad, he only plays 14 and bowe is better than him, I was more commenting on the type of player he is.

Fine at international level - it hasnt been proven, but you are right he could well have improved but not the time to find out.
Many thought that was his best position, including the lions management was full back...... and many along with many the lions management were proven wrong - he doesnt even play club full back.
A side issue
Kidney rightly got slated for not giving youth a chance SOB (and Mike Ross) in the AIs. That argument just doesnt wash with me now. The time to blend young players was last years 6 nations, A1s and cementing this years 6 nations. (Kidney eventually did this but largely due to injury and Ross Sexton and SOB grasping their limited chances). Bolters aside ala Murray and Jones the warm ups should be for cementing the squad and starting team.

As I said above Jones is one of the two fullbacks I would take.
[/quote]
During the six nations and since being back at munster, he has been tested under the high ball and done well. Against Italy, Scotland and wales he came off his wing into traffic and took high balls under pressure. Sob is in the most competitive postition in the squad, yes he should have got more type but the others didn't exactly play poorly. Ross didn't really start coming into contention until after the november internationals, he should have got a got a chance but he wasn't playing as well as he was when it came to the international. Sexton was kept around the squad in 2009 when he wasn't getting a look in with leinster.

valjester wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:Earls fielding has improved a lot, he is fine at international level, not kearney level but grand for international level. His kicking is one of his strenghts, and he can kick the mile a mile. If australia kicked to him all day, Ireland would benefit, genia and cooper are brilliant players but there kicking can be quite erratic and their chasers don't put on a lot of pressure. With bowe there to help out he would do fine. He broke on to the scene as a fullback and although he hasn't played there in a while many felt he would be his best position, especially the lions management. The positives he brings to the position would outway the possible negatives.

Kidney gets slated for not trusting youth, yet everyone is writing players off due to lack of experience if this was australia they would back players like Jones.

Also pete, horgan was never going to make the squad, he only plays 14 and bowe is better than him, I was more commenting on the type of player he is.

Fine at international level - it hasnt been proven, but you are right he could well have improved but not the time to find out.
Many thought that was his best position, including the lions management was full back...... and many along with many the lions management were proven wrong - he doesnt even play club full back.
A side issue
Kidney rightly got slated for not giving youth a chance SOB (and Mike Ross) in the AIs. That argument just doesnt wash with me now. The time to blend young players was last years 6 nations, A1s and cementing this years 6 nations. (Kidney eventually did this but largely due to injury and Ross Sexton and SOB grasping their limited chances). Bolters aside ala Murray and Jones the warm ups should be for cementing the squad and starting team.

As I said above Jones is one of the two fullbacks I would take.

During the six nations and since being back at munster, he has been tested under the high ball and done well. Against Italy, Scotland and wales he came off his wing into traffic and took high balls under pressure. Sob is in the most competitive postition in the squad, yes he should have got more type but the others didn't exactly play poorly. Ross didn't really start coming into contention until after the november internationals, he should have got a got a chance but he wasn't playing as well as he was when it came to the international. Sexton was kept around the squad in 2009 when he wasn't getting a look in with leinster.[/quote]

Dennis Leamy was included in many squads ahead of SOB and started ahead of him. He has been ripping it up for nearly two seasons now.
Ross was anchoring Leinsters scrums all season and with the trouble we have at front row should have started the AIs as if it didnt work we had Hayes and Buckley to fall back to.
How many times was Sexton given game time with Reddan?? Kidney always speaks of partnerships. Rog was always going to be at the WC and pushing strongly for the starting place so time should have been invested in Sexton to make sure he was a viable alternative.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Dennis Leamy was included in many squads ahead of SOB and started ahead of him. He has been ripping it up for nearly two seasons now.
Ross was anchoring Leinsters scrums all season and with the trouble we have at front row should have started the AIs as if it didnt work we had Hayes and Buckley to fall back to.
How many times was Sexton given game time with Reddan?? Kidney always speaks of partnerships. Rog was always going to be at the WC and pushing strongly for the starting place so time should have been invested in Sexton to make sure he was a viable alternative.

Don't re-write history now. He was good before last season but he wasn't "ripping it up". He had a great season this year and probably did deserve more chances during the AI but he got a game against either Fiji or Samoa (can't remember which) and he didn't impress. As for Ross, Kidney and Small decided that Buckley was the way forward and during he previous summer he did actually play well. Then Buckley, as only he can, showed his inconsistent best. They tried Court at TH as well I think. In fairness Ross should have been given a chance but he also wasn't exactly playing great. He was only in the team due to Stan Wright's injury at that point. I think it's a bit unfair to say Kidney has been ignoring those two boys for two seasons. They hadn't, in the main, merited selection prior to the AI's. As for Sexton, Kidney trusts him completely. As someone else said, when Cheika abandoned him to AIL, Kidney brought him into the six nations training squad and motivated him. It's completely disingenious to level any criticism about Sexton with Kidney. And he has invested a huge amount of time in him so I really don't know what you're getting at there.

Kidney will have no qualms trusting Jones and Murray if he feels they deserve it. History has shown that!

[quote="mrsuperclear"]

Feagh McHugh wrote:Dennis Leamy was included in many squads ahead of SOB and started ahead of him. He has been ripping it up for nearly two seasons now.
Ross was anchoring Leinsters scrums all season and with the trouble we have at front row should have started the AIs as if it didnt work we had Hayes and Buckley to fall back to.
How many times was Sexton given game time with Reddan?? Kidney always speaks of partnerships. Rog was always going to be at the WC and pushing strongly for the starting place so time should have been invested in Sexton to make sure he was a viable alternative.

Don't re-write history now. He was good before last season but he wasn't "ripping it up". He had a great season this year and probably did deserve more chances during the AI but he got a game against either Fiji or Samoa (can't remember which) and he didn't impress. As for Ross, Kidney and Small decided that Buckley was the way forward and during he previous summer he did actually play well. Then Buckley, as only he can, showed his inconsistent best. They tried Court at TH as well I think. In fairness Ross should have been given a chance but he also wasn't exactly playing great. He was only in the team due to Stan Wright's injury at that point. I think it's a bit unfair to say Kidney has been ignoring those two boys for two seasons. They hadn't, in the main, merited selection prior to the AI's. As for Sexton, Kidney trusts him completely. As someone else said, when Cheika abandoned him to AIL, Kidney brought him into the six nations training squad and motivated him. It's completely disingenious to level any criticism about Sexton with Kidney. And he has invested a huge amount of time in him so I really don't know what you're getting at there.

Im not re writing history, but nor did I say Ross was playing excellently for two seasons-I said he was anchoring leinsters scrum all season.
You then make my point that Kidney and Smal ignored Ross at buckleys expense and go on to say in fairness Ross should have been given a chance.
Sorry SOB was ripping it up for two seasons now - dislocated thumb and hip injury aside he has been outstanding for one so young- even this year he was excluded at D Leamys expense who was playing poorly. He played in the Ais against Fiji in a pack that preformed poorly and a scrum half that fed him hospital passes all day- his form cannot be questioned this year or judged on one performance where the Irish team didnt turn up.
Thats not re writing history. Please stick to what I actually said.
I also disagree with you re Sexton and think Kidney should have started him more with Reddan to blend him into the squad, but this has happened since.

My above post was in relation to some other comment made above I am not interested in debating this now it has been done to death and always ends badly but if you are going to argue against someone just stick to what they actually said.

[quote="Feagh McHugh"]

mrsuperclear wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:Dennis Leamy was included in many squads ahead of SOB and started ahead of him. He has been ripping it up for nearly two seasons now.
Ross was anchoring Leinsters scrums all season and with the trouble we have at front row should have started the AIs as if it didnt work we had Hayes and Buckley to fall back to.
How many times was Sexton given game time with Reddan?? Kidney always speaks of partnerships. Rog was always going to be at the WC and pushing strongly for the starting place so time should have been invested in Sexton to make sure he was a viable alternative.

Don't re-write history now. He was good before last season but he wasn't "ripping it up". He had a great season this year and probably did deserve more chances during the AI but he got a game against either Fiji or Samoa (can't remember which) and he didn't impress. As for Ross, Kidney and Small decided that Buckley was the way forward and during he previous summer he did actually play well. Then Buckley, as only he can, showed his inconsistent best. They tried Court at TH as well I think. In fairness Ross should have been given a chance but he also wasn't exactly playing great. He was only in the team due to Stan Wright's injury at that point. I think it's a bit unfair to say Kidney has been ignoring those two boys for two seasons. They hadn't, in the main, merited selection prior to the AI's. As for Sexton, Kidney trusts him completely. As someone else said, when Cheika abandoned him to AIL, Kidney brought him into the six nations training squad and motivated him. It's completely disingenious to level any criticism about Sexton with Kidney. And he has invested a huge amount of time in him so I really don't know what you're getting at there.

Im not re writing history, but nor did I say Ross was playing excellently for two seasons-I said he was anchoring leinsters scrum all season.
You then make my point that Kidney and Smal ignored Ross at buckleys expense and go on to say in fairness Ross should have been given a chance.
Sorry SOB was ripping it up for two seasons now - dislocated thumb and hip injury aside he has been outstanding for one so young- even this year he was excluded at D Leamys expense who was playing poorly. He played in the Ais against Fiji in a pack that preformed poorly and a scrum half that fed him hospital passes all day- his form cannot be questioned this year or judged on one performance where the Irish team didnt turn up.
Thats not re writing history. Please stick to what I actually said.
I also disagree with you re Sexton and think Kidney should have started him more with Reddan to blend him into the squad, but this has happened since.

My above post was in relation to some other comment made above I am not interested in debating this now it has been done to death and always ends badly but if you are going to argue against someone just stick to what they actually said.

You are rewriting history - SOB was out from Feb '10 with a broken leg. Prior to that he was seen as a 7 (when he got his chance when Shane Jennings was suspended and spent 3 months in Aus). When Jennings came back, he was dropped for Jennings by Leinster. Even though he wasn't starting for Leinster, Kidney brought him into the 6Ns squad and he came on as a replacement for David Wallace against Italy (his first 6Ns cap - he also played against Fiji & SA - subbed on for Ferris at 40 mins in that match).

By the way, Leamy was injured for most of the '09-'10 season, so I don't know how he could have been blocking him.

As for who played with Sexton - he needed gametime with O'Leary. Sexton had the comfort blanket of D'Arcy & BOD outside him.

Just so people know this series is being continued here

https://www.606v2.com/t9347-606v2-picks-the-best-irish-match-day-22-starting-front-row#272805

but feel free to keep going obviously! Enjoy gentlemen

Sine,

I did mention that injuries aside he has been on form for two years now, and thats regardless of whether he was playing 6,7, or 8- he was in form.
Thats not re writing history that is just the truth.

Leamy has kept him out of squads last and this season that again is just the truth.

Yes unfortunately for Sexton he had TOL looping the ball to him, hardly ideal for bringing a new 10 into the team.

Lovely to see a Carlow native big up SOB and defend him to the hilt.

Kind of like Boyne and his steadfast defence of the Louth man Kearney.

Not only a Carlow man but also a Tullow man. Listen I dont think I said anything about Sean that is out of the ordinary or biased, I even refrained from commenting on the backrow selection as I know when it comes down to it I would probably defend him as I do know him and his family.

Feagh McHugh wrote:Sine,

I did mention that injuries aside he has been on form for two years now, and thats regardless of whether he was playing 6,7, or 8- he was in form.
Thats not re writing history that is just the truth.

Leamy has kept him out of squads last and this season that again is just the truth.

Yes unfortunately for Sexton he had TOL looping the ball to him, hardly ideal for bringing a new 10 into the team.

That was a fairly large chunk of time though - his season finished in Feb - so he missed most of the 6Ns and SH tour.

In the 09/10 season he started 3 Heineken Cup games for Leinster at 7. He has only started against Brive before the Autumn Internationals (presumably because Shane Jennings was cited against London Irish).

In the 10/11 season he started 2 games at 6 for Leinster before the AIs. Ferris started at 6 for Ireland.

It wasn't until Heaslip got injured that he got any gametime at Heineken Cup level at 8 (in Jan 11), so he wasn't going to make the bench without HCup experience at 8. As soon as he did, he was tried at 8 against Italy where somehow or other he got MOTM, despite not being even the best 8 on the pitch.

Feagh McHugh wrote:

valjester wrote:

Feagh McHugh wrote:Earls fielding has improved a lot, he is fine at international level, not kearney level but grand for international level. His kicking is one of his strenghts, and he can kick the mile a mile. If australia kicked to him all day, Ireland would benefit, genia and cooper are brilliant players but there kicking can be quite erratic and their chasers don't put on a lot of pressure. With bowe there to help out he would do fine. He broke on to the scene as a fullback and although he hasn't played there in a while many felt he would be his best position, especially the lions management. The positives he brings to the position would outway the possible negatives.

Kidney gets slated for not trusting youth, yet everyone is writing players off due to lack of experience if this was australia they would back players like Jones.

Also pete, horgan was never going to make the squad, he only plays 14 and bowe is better than him, I was more commenting on the type of player he is.

Fine at international level - it hasnt been proven, but you are right he could well have improved but not the time to find out.
Many thought that was his best position, including the lions management was full back...... and many along with many the lions management were proven wrong - he doesnt even play club full back.
A side issue
Kidney rightly got slated for not giving youth a chance SOB (and Mike Ross) in the AIs. That argument just doesnt wash with me now. The time to blend young players was last years 6 nations, A1s and cementing this years 6 nations. (Kidney eventually did this but largely due to injury and Ross Sexton and SOB grasping their limited chances). Bolters aside ala Murray and Jones the warm ups should be for cementing the squad and starting team.

As I said above Jones is one of the two fullbacks I would take.

During the six nations and since being back at munster, he has been tested under the high ball and done well. Against Italy, Scotland and wales he came off his wing into traffic and took high balls under pressure. Sob is in the most competitive postition in the squad, yes he should have got more type but the others didn't exactly play poorly. Ross didn't really start coming into contention until after the november internationals, he should have got a got a chance but he wasn't playing as well as he was when it came to the international. Sexton was kept around the squad in 2009 when he wasn't getting a look in with leinster.

Dennis Leamy was included in many squads ahead of SOB and started ahead of him. He has been ripping it up for nearly two seasons now.
Ross was anchoring Leinsters scrums all season and with the trouble we have at front row should have started the AIs as if it didnt work we had Hayes and Buckley to fall back to.
How many times was Sexton given game time with Reddan?? Kidney always speaks of partnerships. Rog was always going to be at the WC and pushing strongly for the starting place so time should have been invested in Sexton to make sure he was a viable alternative. [/quote]

Yes.

But, in fairness, Kidney gave Sexton the very boost he needed. A time when he was at his lowest. At a time when Cheika didnt really believe in him. Ok, Felipe (my main man) was in situ. But, there were times when Cheika moved Nacewa to 10, instead of playing Sexton - and trusting him to do a job. Those times.

I really believe that Sexton is going to pay Deccie back in spades for that. He will be one of the stars at RWC. Said it over 3 years ago. His time is now. And with the Lions.