ATG 15 Results

The official results for the 606v2 all time pound for pound rankings are as follows:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
Simply put the greatest of all time, a world champion in both the Welterweight and Middleweight divisions, was also well on his way to claiming the light heavyweight championship from Joey Maxim when well ahead on the scorecards had to retire due to heat exhaustion. Notable scalps include- Gavilan, Basilio, LaMotta, Fullmer and Graziano

2. Henry Armstrong
The only man to hold 3 world titles simultaneously namely Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight, also holds the record for most defences of the Welterweight crown. Notable scalps include- Ross, Ambers, Garcia, Arizmendi and Larkin

3. Harry Greb
The Human Windmill beat more past and future world champions in history, a fighter who could punch from all angles while never stopping with an incredible chin and only ever stopped twice early in his career. Notable scalps include- Tunney, Walker, Rosenbloom, Loughran and McTigue.

4. Muhammad Ali
The most famous of them all, dominated the golden era of heavyweight boxing, had his prime years stolen following his refusal to fight in Vietnam, the first man to win the heavyweight crown three times. Notable scalps include- Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton and Patterson.

5. Ezzard Charles
Like many black fighters of his era was deemed to good for a host of world champions to risk their titles against until finally claiming the heavyweight crown following Louis' retirement. Made his name beating the best fighters of arguably the strongest era of light heavyweight boxing. Notable scalps include- Moore, Burley, Louis, Bivins and Walcott.

6. Sam Langford
Much like Charles was unfortunate in being good and black, had won tilt at a world title against Barbados Joe Walcott for his Welterweight title but ended in a draw, had to move up the divsions just to find fighters willing to face him and his incredible power. Notable scalps include- Gans, Mcvea, Jeannette, Godfrey and Wills.

7. Eder Jofre
The Golden Bantam as he was known was a fighter likened to the great Sugar Ray Robinson, could do everything to an excellent level, could box, could swarm and could most certainly punch, his career is epitomised by his return from retirement in his late 30's when he annexed the featherweight world title. Notable scalps include- Legra, Saldivar, Medel, Caldwell and Caraballo.

7. Bob Fitzsimmons
The first man to win three seperate world titles and the first and only fighter to win a lineal title in both the middleweight and heavyweight divisions, a fighter of two very distant halves, his muscular back and shoulders gained from his days as a blacksmith and his small spindly legs known for his devastating punching power. Notable scalps include- Choynski, Dempsey, Corbett, O'Brien and Sharkey.

9. Roberto Duran
The hands of stone a fighter often remembered for all the wrong reasons namely the 'No Mas' fight against Leonard and the humiliation at the hands of Tommy 'the hitman' Hearns, looking beyond that you have a four weight world champion who's career spanned 5 decades with wins from Bantamweight all the way up to Super middleweight. Notable scalps include- Leonard, DeJesus, Buchanan, Marcel and Palomino.

10. Benny Leonard
Like the man directly above him regarded as one of if not the greatest lightweight of them all, had a long and successful career including a tilt at the Welterweight crown against Jack Britton which ended in controversy. Notable scalps include- Tendler, Kansas, Britton, Welsh and Dundee.

11. Gene Tunney
12. Sugar Ray Leonard
13. Willie Pep
14. Joe Gans
15. Barney Ross

16. Archie Moore
17. Pernell Whitaker
18. Jimmy Wilde
19. Joe Louis
19. Sandy Saddler
21. Mickey Walker
22. Carlos Monzon
23. Marvin Hagler
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
24. Thomas Hearns
24. Ricardo Lopez
24. Bernard Hopkins
24. Kid Gavilan

Hopkins? I thought the criteria was that they had to have been retired 5 years.

Good list though, and very much as expected.

Pretty good. Jofre a bit high for me and I'd have SRL in the top 10, but otherwise decent.

There wasn't any 5 year retirement rule Fists.

Sorry, confusing it with the hall of fame thread.

Still, strange that Hopkins is in there ahead of Mayweather or Manny, in my opinion.

I do have Hopkins ahead of both personally currently at around 19 compared to 23/24 for Mayweather and Pacquiao.

Fists of Fury wrote:Sorry, confusing it with the hall of fame thread.

Still, strange that Hopkins is in there ahead of Mayweather or Manny, in my opinion.

He only had 1 vote, at #15.

Quick question with regard to Armstrong holding 3 different world titles - did the rules of the day not specify that once you hold a title in a different weight, you relinquish the belt from the previous weight? Or were you free to move up and down the weights for your title defenses?

What a list of fighters.

Good work Ghosty.

Dazstarr wrote:Quick question with regard to Armstrong holding 3 different world titles - did the rules of the day not specify that once you hold a title in a different weight, you relinquish the belt from the previous weight? Or were you free to move up and down the weights for your title defenses?

You could hold as many different titles as you liked as long as you showed a willingness to defend them, in the case of Canzoneri he routinely defended both his lightweight and light welterweight titles inside the lightweight limit.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Dazstarr wrote:Quick question with regard to Armstrong holding 3 different world titles - did the rules of the day not specify that once you hold a title in a different weight, you relinquish the belt from the previous weight? Or were you free to move up and down the weights for your title defenses?

You could hold as many different titles as you liked as long as you showed a willingness to defend them, in the case of Canzoneri he routinely defended both his lightweight and light welterweight titles inside the lightweight limit.

Didnt realise that! Cheers. Does that still apply today?

It's strange, not long ago I'd have had Whitaker somewhere around the seventeen spot myself. Now, after recently revisiting him and having gone back and forth with the captain a few weeks back over how his career matches up with Duran's, I'm inclined to think that being down in seventeenth place may be doing him a disservice! Just goes to show that it's really more or less impossible to keep a dead-set top ten or fifteen for more than a short while, I suppose.

Overall, I don't have too many arguments with the list we've collectively come up with, though. As much as I love him, Jofre is a touch high for me, and likewise Joe Gans, but that evens itself out with Whitaker and Monzon being lower than I'd have them. Swings and roundabouts.

But the right names are there pretty much, which is the main thing. Good work again, Ghosty!

Dazstarr wrote:Didnt realise that! Cheers. Does that still apply today?

Depends how much money you bring them in. Probably not though, so it's not really replicable.

I'm glad nobody has noticed who the top 15 actually are, purely coincidence I trust you.

Scottrf wrote:

Dazstarr wrote:Didnt realise that! Cheers. Does that still apply today?

Depends how much money you bring them in. Probably not though, so it's not really replicable.

Cheers

Scottrf wrote:

Dazstarr wrote:Didnt realise that! Cheers. Does that still apply today?

Depends how much money you bring them in. Probably not though, so it's not really replicable.

Leonard had to choose whether he wanted to keep his super middleweight title or his light heavyweight title after the LaLonde fight, Whitaker had to relinquish his light middleweight title straight away too, Martinez was stripped of his light middleweight title, the governing bodies don't tend to like having multi weight world champions any more.

Yeah I believe they ask where you are planning on competing, although that may just be the Ring. I suspect if one of the big boys wanted to keep titles in a couple of divisions they would be allowed to, at least 'upgraded' to some sort of Super or Emeritus champion.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'm glad nobody has noticed who the top 15 actually are, purely coincidence I trust you.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I'm glad nobody has noticed who the top 15 actually are, purely coincidence I trust you.

?

They're the 15 boxers I picked but in a slightly different order.

Inevitable, lot of the members only debate here/606 and opinions are built off each other.

That is very true Scott, think the reputation of Jofre for instance has improved on here because of the opinions of Windy and Captain.

Would you like me to merge this across into your other thread in the vault, Ghosty?

I'd say keep this one here Fists so if anyone wishes to discuss it they can without clogging up the vault.

Not a problem.

I think that if you look at the full list, there could be very little dispute about the names that feature. I admit to gaining knowledge from, and being influenced by, a whole range of sources and debates, and while this kind of list will always be fine-tuned until the end of time, this particular one is a damn good place to start.

Is a pretty good list but like all lists confined to a 10 or 15 you get fighters like Arguello who fail to get any votes but should be above a fair few of the names in the lower reaches.

Good list, just slightly disappointed Sweet Pea didn't make the 10-15 positions.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Dazstarr wrote:Didnt realise that! Cheers. Does that still apply today?

Depends how much money you bring them in. Probably not though, so it's not really replicable.

Leonard had to choose whether he wanted to keep his super middleweight title or his light heavyweight title after the LaLonde fight, Whitaker had to relinquish his light middleweight title straight away too, Martinez was stripped of his light middleweight title, the governing bodies don't tend to like having multi weight world champions any more.

But Leonard was allowed to be the WBC welterweight champ while at the same time the WBA light-middle champ. Maybe that was due to them being titles from different sanctioning bodies?

Not really no because he again immediately vacated the WBA light middleweight title.

OK my mistake. I thought that Leonard kept hold of the WBA light-middle going into his unification fight with Hearns.

Nice list Ghosty.
Personally would have a couple of things changed around but I bow down to your masterfullness in even creating these I restart it every 10 minutes after contradicting myself a thousand times can never get one completed so well done.

It was a member vote Alex, this isn't Ghosty's personal opinion, though it isn't far off.

Ah, I had no idea I was meant to vote Now how do I get out of this situation without looking like a tool...

You don't Or, you could go and vote on your top 10 ATG Brits..

Again nigh on impossible it just changes everyday with who I'm liking at the moment. Then I begin contradicting myself whilst doing it seeing as you can give someone an arguement for being ahead of someone else, they drive me up the wall so I rarely do them.

Tut tut Alex, although will add that it would have to have taken a few more votes going in a particular direction for the top ten to have changed beyond that it was up for grabs.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I do have Hopkins ahead of both personally currently at around 19 compared to 23/24 for Mayweather and Pacquiao.

I personally don't care to have active fighters in these lists but in Hopkins case he is perhaps in a fairly uniqiue situation in that given he is nigh on 50 whatever he does now in terms of losses is going to be mitigated by that fact and so even losses against a good but not great guy like Froch or Dawson would perhaps not hurt him too greatly, whereas Manny and Floyd can still hurt their standings, for instance if they don't fight would guess I would not be alone in holding it against both legacy wise or should Manny lose to Marquez or Floyd to do similarly to Ortiz would have to downgrade them to some degree, despite the fact I don't see either of these scenarios occuring.

Would you say that Floyd and Manny are past their best also though, Jeff?

I probably would, so losses will hurt their legacy far more than Hopkins, but not to the extent where they blow it to smithereens.

Would agree they are a little past there best but there is a world of difference between being a couple of years past their best and being 46 and still operating at the top of the game. Also do firmly believe with Manny and Floyd we can't get away from the elephant in the room of them two having thus far not faced each other and because my views on this subject are firmly that neither party or person is blameless in that particular farce if they do not face each other before they hang them up and probably in reality after they have both got through their next fights I will have to hold it against both of them, others may disagree or consider this harsh but these things are largely subjective.

good work ghosty.

On the subject of group 'education' on fighters. I think the more knowlegable posters have educated many of us re the old timers, which can only be a good thing. My thought for the day though is whether as a group (at least the sort of posters who would give their thoughts on this type of thread) we have the potential to rose tint it a bit. I wonder what a modern great would have to do now to break through. For example, if we were looking back at the (admittedly padded record) of chavez, had he been fighting in the 20's or 30's, would he be in?

I suspect he might. As it is he got one vote, and not i add from me!

Had he fought in the 40's and 50's, would we be kinder to roy jones and rave over a 15 year run with just 1 dq loss (in a fight he was about to win) whilst picking up belts from middle to heavy. And forgive him his defeats when he was past it? If we just looked at his record, listened to a few old trainers raving about him, and read a few newspaper reports about his lightning handspeed, I suspect we might be tempted.

No issue with the list, we 're talking the best of the best here and i didn't vote for jones or chavez, neither of whom are my favourite fighters. I picked them here, purely to illustrate a point.

Think the issue is their standard of opposition and in the case of Jones Jr, the fighters he fought in the whole aren't anywhere near good enough to get near let alone in a top 15. Chavez is slightly trickier as his unbeaten run was made up of a lot of rubbish but he also had 30+ title fights in his career and only started losing when he moved to Welterweight as an old battle worn fighter, has a case for a top 20 but top 15 is a bridge too far.

Chavez is a difficult one, I agree. He's an absolute must for a top twenty spot if we go on pure accomplishments. In fact, if we looked at purely what each fighter achieved, he'd be pushing for a top ten spot. He's Arguello's nearest rival to the title of best Super-Featherweight of them all for me, is without question top three (and has a case for top spot) at Light-Welterweight, and in between did a WBA/WBC Lightweight double, giving an absolute thrashing to one of the hardest hitting 135 lb men of all time in Rosario and then soundly beating Ramirez, another highly capable belt holder. The Whitaker 'draw' is a slight blotch on his record at the very highest level, but it's worth remembering that it took place at 147 lb which, quite obviously, just wasn't Chavez's weight.

I'm not so sure that saying a top fifteen spot for him is a 'bridge too far', to be honest. I'd have him just outside that group, but the more I think about it, the more I'd have absolutely no problem with anyone having him as high as thirteenth / fourteenth. There isn't a single win on his ledger that would be classed as a legendary one (ala Duran-Leonard, Tunney-Dempsey, Ali-Foreman etc), but then again, the same could probably be said for Jofre, Whitaker and Benny Leonard. But when you have a series of 'good' wins against men such as Ramirez, Camacho, La Porte, Martinez, Lockridge, Mayweather, Randall, Taylor, Castillo, Rosario, Haugan, Parisi etc, and are 31-4-2 in world title bouts, that's a record which takes some beating.

He could possibly displace Gans and Ross but even then I feel Whitaker and Moore are more deserving of a top 15 position, I could have him at 16 at the absolute highest, he has a series of good wins but when judging a lot of fighters we don't really discuss their good wins but rather their great wins which is where Chavez falls down for me. We mention Haugen for Chavez but would we realistically mention Williams, Lytell, Smith or Satterfield among Moores premier wins?

i wasn't suggesting either of them should be in ghosty.

My point is more that we can watch the fights and form the opinions better now. If we saw Jones' record in relative isolation, looked at the dominance the number of fighters with good records he outclassed, the fact that he could boast wins over hopkins, toney, mccallum. Unbeaten for years, unifications, belts at different weights etc etc... we might see it differently.

We all wax lyrical about eder jofre, and quite rightly, but his record is loaded with brasilian road sweepers, and his number of title fights or against top opposition is relatively limited. My point is for example had jones fought in the early 60's with his record and jofre been fighting now, with his, would we view them as we do... or would we slag jofre off for the padding and the defeats in his 2 biggest tests?

I don't know the answer to that. i'm merely flagging the question

Imperial Ghosty wrote:We mention Haugen for Chavez but would we realistically mention Williams, Lytell, Smith or Satterfield among Moores premier wins?

That's a bit misleading, though. It's not as if Haugen ranks at or near the top of Chavez's win list, is it? I listed it more as a way of showing just how much depth Chavez's record has. As I said, Jofre, Whitaker and Benny Leonard don't really have any wins that make you go 'wow', but their greatness lies in having a series of impressive rather than legendary wins (ie, depth) and the dominance at their chosen weights during their era. Chavez was the definition of dominant over three weights until he bumped in to Whitaker. His record is, at the very least, comparable to Pep's, Moore's, Louis', Walker's or Saddler's. At least in my view. Some I'd have ahead of him, some behind, but he certainly belongs in that company for my money.

Think with some of these guys the desire to see big "wow" type wins can sometimes do them a disservice because sometimes guys just operate in eras where the talent pool is not that deep. Think a more instructive question to ask is are there any glaring names during their era that they should/could have fought and whilst I am by no means an expert on Chavez think on this criteria JCC probably comes out pretty well, although am happy to be corrected should this not be the case.

The Haugen win is part of Chavez's good win column, he's on the same level as a Satterfield or a Williams and being brutally honest would you ever even think of mentioning them among Moores good wins, in relation to him and his record they are merely decent wins which for me shows the level at which he and Chavez are at. I can agree with having him in the company of Walker, Louis or Saddler but Moore and Pep are on a slightly higher level to him, have no problems seeing him ranked at about 16/17 but don't really see an argument for him being above Moore, Whitaker or Pep who are at the lower reaches of a 15.

Milky

Another major part of it is how a fighter performs when past his best and if we look at the top 15 we picked with the exception of Tunney who retired before this kicked in they all did pretty well and gave performances befitting of an all time great, with Jones too much emphasise is placed on being past his best when he started losing. Well i'd counter that by saying someone with his apparent talent would adapt and find a way to at least compete on any sort of level but he capitulated.

Fair enough, Ghosty, though I will add that Chavez's sheer consistency is to be admired. He may not have as many eye-catching wins as Moore, but at the same time he doesn't have the disappointing losses to the likes of Morrow or Wade, neither of whom were in Moore's class. As much as I have been guilty of it in the past, there is a tendancy to only concentrate on old-timer's wins and totally airbrush the losses. Of course, during that 87-0 run he had, not all of Chavez's opponents were from the top couple of drawers, but to not have a single slip up in any of those 87 nights takes some doing, as the inexplicable losses on the records of men such as Moore and Walker shows.

Great, great Light-Heavyweight, was Moore. One of the very best. But I think I might just have to find room for Chavez to be ahead of him in the all-time pound for pound stakes, though there wouldn't be more than a couple of places or so in it.