Wales 28 - 13 Argentina - Post Match Discussion

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BBC IPLAYER
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013rl7k/Rugby_Union_2011_2012_Wales_v_Argentina/

Wales completed their World Cup warm-ups with a hard-fought win over Argentina at the Millennium Stadium.

Felipe Contepomi struck the opening penalty, but Wales were 14-3 ahead at the break though Andy Powell and Alun Wyn Jones tries.

James Hook added both conversions and two penalties before George North crossed.

Martin Scelzo went over for the Pumas late on, but Hook's late penalty sealed Wales' win.

Adam Jones impressed on his return to the Welsh front-row following a toe injury.

But another member of Wales' Jones contingent was not so fortunate with the hosts forced into a bench reshuffle before kick-off when Stephen Jones withdrew with a recurrence of his calf problem.

The fly-half had been set to become Wales' most-capped player, making his 101s appearance, but instead centre Scott Williams took his place amongst the replacements.

Contepomi had the first chance of points, but the Pumas captain sent the penalty kick across the face of the Wales posts.

A snap drop-goal also drifted wide as Argentina kept Wales pinned in their own half with some fierce first-up tackling.

But when Rodrigo Roncero was penalised for pulling down a scrum James Hook was able to kick Wales into the visitors' 22 for the first time.

A series of drives opened a gap on the right and Lee Byrne made the extra man to send the ball on to Leigh Halfpenny.

The wing, back in the side after a long-term ankle injury made for the corner, but was dragged down just short.

When Wales ere caught offside Cont was handed another penalty and this time sent the ball over the bar, although off the inside of a post.

But the A fly-half missed a third attempt soon after the half hour mark and Wales him pay with two tries in quick succession.

First Powell charged across the line when scrum-half Knoyle sniped around a ruck before linking with AWJ who sent his number eight away.

Then it was lock Jones' turn to cross after a 30-yard break by wing George North, the beneficiary of some hard driving by Dan Lydiate and quick hands from Jamie Roberts.

Hook converted both tries and Wales were able to scamper off at half-time with a healthy 14-3 lead.

The Wales fly-half added two penalties soon after the break when referee Romain Poite penalised the Pumas for wheeling a scrum and then hands in the ruck.

Contepomi kicked his second penalty to make it 20-6, but with the lead still comfortable Wales coach Warren Gatland opted to freshen things from the bench.

Among the arrivals was Cardiff Blues scrum-half Lloyd Williams to win his first cap, following in the footsteps of ex-Wales and British Irish Lions number nine Brynmor Williams.

Lloyd Williams replaced the excellent Knoyle who must surely have booked his World Cup place.

Another youngster, Opsreys flanker Justin Tipuric, also came on for his Test debut to replace the 35-year-old stand-in skipper Martyn Williams.

Cardiff Blues flanker Williams was winning his 99th cap and still hopeful of more at the World Cup.

Wales rubber stamped their dominance with a third try as Jonathan Davies' clever inside flick found North, who crashed over from close range.

Argentina rallied to threaten the Wales line in the dying moments, shoving replacement prop Martin Scelzo over.

Hook added a late penalty to make Wales' lead 28-13 and send them off to the 11 September clash with South Africa in good heart.

Well i'm not the best at Maths but if Warburton AND Turnbull go then doesn't that leave us with two openside flankers at the world cup?

ML wrote:

mpc28 wrote:
Im not suggesting JT2 is better but id say Turnbull would be a better option as he can play around the backrow and also in the 2nd row so would be a great option for the bench.

That would leave us with only one openside flanker at the World Cup............aint gonna happen (I hope). The breakdown is THE battleground where matches are won and lost, more so now than ever before.

So does Turnbull not play openside for The Scarlets? Warburton is clearly the number 1 openside and it would make more sense to have a back up openside who can play in a few more postions and if worse comes to worse and warburton gets injured then you can call up Williams

Unfortunately South Africa is the first game up - and the one where two quality 7s are most important if we have a genuine ambition to win that game. Martin IS on the downslope, no question, but (barring Warburton) he still offers more in the 7 shirt than anyone else at the moment. Turnbull & Tipuric are for the future.

One thing is for sure - in 4 years time there is going to be one hell of a battle to secure the backrow positions in the Welsh Squad! We seem to have a surplus of them coming through.

Well Martyn would be irrelevant anyway because he is no longer a quality 7.

ML wrote:Unfortunately South Africa is the first game up - and the one where two quality 7s are most importnat in my mind if we have a genuine ambition to win that game.

You honestly think that against South Africa we will be taking off Warbuton if he isnt injured? Also what has Williams done over the last year that Turnball hasnt? Granted he has been one of the best players of the past few years but lets face it this isnt the Martyn williams of 2005 or 2008 so i think its time to move on.

Its down to personal choice I guess

mpc28 wrote:You honestly think that against South Africa we will be taking off Warbuton if he isnt injured? Also what has Williams done over the last year that Turnball hasnt? Granted he has been one of the best players of the past few years but lets face it this isnt the Martyn williams of 2005 or 2008 so i think its time to move on.

No, I didn't suggest that for a moment. But if he is injured, who would you rather have on the bench? Personally I would want Martyn Williams there because he turns over more ball (still) than Turnbull, and has the experience to slow down SA possession. Yes, Turnbull could also cover 6 - but we dont need that versatility with Ryan Jones in the match day squad.

Turnbull could well go as a 6 anyway, we dont really have a back up for Lydiate.
Ryan Jones could also go as a lock with Charteris as back ups for AWJ and Bradley.

Id rather the form player which i believe is Turnball, if Warburton is injured then id be calling for Williams but i think on form he doesnt get into the 30 i might be wrong only time will tell.

AlynDavies wrote:Turnbull could well go as a 6 anyway, we dont really have a back up for Lydiate.
Ryan Jones could also go as a lock with Charteris as back ups for AWJ and Bradley.

Agreed.

Mind you, Turnbull could well go as a hooker!

As far as i can see we have only one hooker left from the original 40 man squad (HB). Burns isnt ready for the step up to International level yet & Hibbard isnt even in the same postcode as "fit". Time to look outside the squad?

So, again does anyone know exactly what Tavis Knoyle did to be MOTM? Because I sure don't. AWJ for me, improved dramatically over these 3 games compared to last season.

nottins_jones wrote:So, again does anyone know exactly what Tavis Knoyle did to be MOTM? Because I sure don't. AWJ for me, improved dramatically over these 3 games compared to last season.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/9569068.stm

Well he did excellent work for AWJ's try didnt he?
If anyone knows how to judge a good scrum half display it would be Jiffy.

nottins_jones wrote:So, again does anyone know exactly what Tavis Knoyle did to be MOTM? Because I sure don't. AWJ for me, improved dramatically over these 3 games compared to last season.

It made me scratch my head but after thinking about it then it was only out of him or George North.

todays starters:-
Buggy Boy-get rid of-end of
Hibbard-ok has'nt played for a while but ineffective
Lee Byrne-got to take him I suppose but not convincing in any way
Nugget-well done on his 90th but really not up to the WC

sorry Martyn 99th

AlynDavies wrote:
Well he did excellent work for AWJ's try didnt he?
If anyone knows how to judge a good scrum half display it would be Jiffy.

He did ok. I'm still not sure if that's worthy of his award. Seeing as his passing was terrible(worse than Phillips' who's passing isn't actually as bad as people make out) and the majority of his decision making. Got lucky for the first try because of Powell's fumlbe off the floor. Next you'll be saying Andy deserved MOTM because he scored a try. AWJ was involved in both tries and the guys a lock forward, looks faster too. Remember when Zac Guildford chased him down and he s**t his pants?

I also think it was out of AWJ and North. North's just a try-scoring machine.

senghenydd1913 wrote:todays starters:-
Buggy Boy-get rid of-end of
Hibbard-ok has'nt played for a while but ineffective
Lee Byrne-got to take him I suppose but not convincing in any way
Nugget-well done on his 90th but really not up to the WC

Yeah Buggy boy as you call him, lol... he rushed out of the defensive line a lot today and left gaps behind him, if he does that against a tri nations team, it will be costly. Faletau offers more power and better defence, and Ryan Jones needs to back him up.

Hibbard line out was abysmal, no excuses either, he was throwing to AWJ, which he does every week to the Ospreys and Adam Jones and Paul James were the lifters both also with the Ospreys. Frankly he can have no good reason for the amount of mis-timed throws he put in. Very poor and disappointing from him.

Bryne hasnt played for 4 months, but it's to late now we have run out of time, Priestland needs to start in the world Cup, we cant afford to give Bryne a chance to get match fit, though he needs to go as back up.

Williams looked off the pace, and is really showing his age, though I'd still take him as back up, Id have much more confidence seeing him coming off the bench that a young, raw, inexperienced JT2. you cant put JT2 ahead of him because his first cap was today and only as a blood replacement, so to simply throw away Williams would be sickening.

nottins_jones wrote:He did ok. I'm still not sure if that's worthy of his award. Seeing as his passing was terrible(worse than Phillips' who's passing isn't actually as bad as people make out) and the majority of his decision making. Got lucky for the first try because of Powell's fumlbe off the floor. Next you'll be saying Andy deserved MOTM because he scored a try. AWJ was involved in both tries and the guys a lock forward, looks faster too. Remember when Zac Guildford chased him down and he s**t his pants?

I also think it was out of AWJ and North. North's just a try-scoring machine.

I agree with most of what you say mate, Phillips is the better starting scrum half and adds aggression and organisation not to mention fierce defence. Tavis seems to be a good impact player, good for coming on when the opposition are tired, to change the pace of the game.

http://www.wru.co.uk/matchdaytv/Index/index/id/9009

Warren Gatland post match interview.

Good interview no nonsense,

Thieving and looting across much of the country.

London calls it 'an abomination'.

Birmingham calls it 'a disgrace'.

Merthyr calls it 'a Monday'...

A good game to sort the wheat out from the crxp so here's the real lowdown albeit brief

James - did well and can hold his own in the front row as a forst choice
Hibbard - poor game, Bennett moves ahead on recent performances
Adam - did what we knew he could do
Bradley - Charteris is pushing for a place but he showed good strength and often does the unseen dirty work
AWJ - Best game in a weslh shirt IMO and much needed
Nuggett - Lets face it the guys past it and shouldn't be going - anonomous
Powell - Liability with the game awareness of a bison on acid
Lydiate - done deal
Tavis - showed some great hands and whilst still raw he played well
Hook - sublime kicking and a decent game
Roberts - Not his best but he took the ball up well
JD - I dont know what's wrong here, I think he's trying too hard but he had an awful game and I think Scott Williams is a better option at the moment
North - Not enough words
1/2 - Looked a yard off the pace
Byrne - See Powell and Nuggett

I thought Knoyles passes were looped, slow to get the ball away, one to ground and kicked poorly. Lloyd Williams pass for the third try was long fast and gave Hook the time to give another good pass to Davies and a great inside ball to North, I don't think Wales would have scored that try with Knoyle at scrum half (we will never know)! In fairness to Knoyle, he helped make AWJ try, made a couple of breaks and some good defence.

I found it frustrating that we were going to the touch line again and being out numbered. Bryne seems to be playing last 6N style kick and kick even with a big overlap, he needs more game time although his defence was good but he is not running his good lines in attack. North and AWJ had very good games, I thought North's hard work lifted the team with him chasing his up and under and hitting the catcher, he did not turn the ball over but the team's intensity increased from that point on.

The positives to come out of this game is Lloyd and Scott Williams, the scrums were better, the line outs got better as the game went on, 1/2 penny looked good on his return and Wales won two on the bounce!

glamorganalun, Lloyd Williams has the best service of any of our scrum halves. This World Cup's come too soon for him, but he looks like a real prospect.

I think Martyn Williams has played his last game for Wales unless others pick up injuries on that performance today, his still got some life in those legs but not at International level unless his content with sitting on the bench for 70-75mins.

A great player, but its time to call it a day Nuggett.

The BBc I player link is now working, you can watch the game again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013rl7k/Rugby_Union_2011_2012_Wales_v_Argentina/

No thanks I've got to de-flea the cat, oh and I just found the Wal v Eng game on my digi box form this years six nations, sweet!

Bath:

Your guys have to play Arg, they looked good for 30 mins but they suffer the same problem as England they blow up at half time so it should be a close match at the RWC!

glamorganalun wrote:Bath:

Your guys have to play Arg, they looked good for 30 mins but they suffer the same problem as England they blow up at half time so it should be a close match at the RWC!

Ah bath isn't worried - why should he be? England have such a great back row after all

RubyGuby wrote:A good game to sort the wheat out from the crxp so here's the real lowdown albeit brief


Powell - Liability with the game awareness of a bison on acid

I think thats unfair on the bison tbh. I guarentee if Powell and ythe bison were on acid the bison would be a better option at 8

In fairness to Andy Powell, he didn't have a bad game. He got lucky for his try. But despite the try, it highlighted the main problem with this Wales squad as a whole: they're incapable of thinking for themselves. It's one thing having a set move off the back of a scrum, say; but you have to have the wit to know that the scrum's retreating and that you need to cancel the move. It's the same when it comes to backline moves. It's a sad state of affairs when our threequarters can't sense for themselves when a move's on or not.

Well for me I didnt think Tavis had that great a game, certainly not in the first half where he was scragged at the scrum and caught at the bottom of the ruck a few times. His backrow did him few favours, and for all Ppwell scoring a try he didnt protect his scrum half neither did JT or nuggett but Tavis seriously needs to speed up his service. We could and should have scored two more tries from turnovers if we had quicker ball.

Byrne

I only saw the first half so can only comment on it,Wales Scrum went well the "Hair Bear" don1t know his name made a big difference.
Argentina seemed very comfortable on the ball,looked rustymdropped a bit of ball.
Missed 4 straight forward goal kick attempts,Scrum did`nt seem as strong as usual[or Wales made it look weak}.
Wales scored to brilliant tries against the run of general play

If Chris Ashton was fit and Argentinian they wouldve won

I had a wonderful day out yesterday with my mates in Cardiff, the stadium was buzzing, plenty of Argentinians around.

Excellent game, Wales were superb, though so were the Argies, who need another game or two, but they will cause a few surprises.

I am amazed to read NJ and a few others that you didn't agree on Knoyle being man of the Match, he was outstanding, his vision was the difference between Wales and Argentina. He plays heads up rugby always looking around.

Lloyd Williams also looked very good too.

We have a great squad this world cup, we have a tricky run to the knock out stages, but so does everyone else looking at this weekends other performances.

I think Tavis had a decent game and played a significant part in the first 2 trys. To give him some credit he played behind Martin Williams and Powell who were both pretty ineffectual and didn't help him - He would fair better behind Warburton, Lyd, and Toby or Ryan as he'd have more time and control.

I know your comments are almost tongue in cheek Wheeler with your If If If only, but If only had happened Wales would then have upped their game. Lets see if you guys can do it next week instead of becoming the if only team.

Positives -

North confirmed his quality.
AWJ sharp and aggressive.
We're back to scoring tries!
More fizz in the midffield - 10, 12, 13 combining well.
SH - some good play from both Knoyle and Lloyd-Williams.
Adam Jones!
Fitness and tackling again impressive

Negatives

Line-out still poor. Lost balls on long throws.
Byrne kicking out on the full and failing to see overlap (but a couple of good tackles from him)
Pack outplayed for long periods.
Too many mistakes still. EG, failure to capitalize against 14 men - in fact, gave away penalty after penalty.
SH - the two youngsters showed their talent, but also some inexperience, getting scragged a couple of times.
Martyn - this world cup looks like a bridge too far.

All in all a good performance, a confidence-building win and a satisfactory
points margin. Yet, to be frank, a long, long way from the best teams in the world.

Spot on Samurai - I also think JD is suffering outside Jamie and the midfield balance doesn't look right - Who is best to partner Jamie??

I think it goes without saying that Wales are much better in defence and attack with Warburton, Lydiate and Faletau though.
Warburton and Lydiate seem to feed off each other also, they have developed a great understanding in defence.

For ne there were a few very good performances:

Unlike other posters, I thought Tavis Knoyle played well, for long periods of the game he was playing behind a beaten pack and getting no protection. He got through aa amazing number of tackles, varied his game and created one try and contributed to another.

North, what a prospect, is he now Wales best Wing?

AWJ had a great game, solid in the srums, won his ball in the lineout and was an extra flanker around the field. Top performance.

Adam Jones, essential for Wales scrum. Even half fit he was the best front row on the field.

Hook's line kicking and goal kicking was superb. He was also very good in defence. His distribution though lacks vision and creativeness. He looks like someone who just has the odd game at 10! On this form too good to leave out, but where does he play?

Roberts has upped his game but does not gell with JD2, his distribution is poor. Perhaps Wales need to rotate the centres during the game or play old fashioned left & right?

JD2 has been roundly critisised, but he got very little ball and a lot of the passes he got were awful. Needs a creative partner or to play his usual position of 12.

Hibbard was pants, did any one tell him Wales were the ones in Red.

Powell played quite well but that probably means his next three games will be pants. JT, what was he there for? And sadly Nugget is now a has been and needs to be let down gently.

Big problem at full back, Byrne was way off the pace and so was 1/2p, who seems to have lost some pace.

We really are going to need Warburton against South Africa if Heinrich Brussow plays anything like he did last night

Halfpenny did look a little slow. He had a clear run to the line at one point in the 1st half , but was shepherded out too easily.

Didn't think the midfield was as bad as some of the posters say. JD2 did a couple of good things, including the slick pass for the North try. Roberts looked less predictable than in the 6N, and there were some big miss-passes attempted that half came off. Hook did not have a stellar game, but looked composed. Interesting to see (confirmed by the match stats) he rarely ran ther ball.

In general there was more ball going straight to the 3/4s, rather than being shipped short to static forwards. A welcome change of plan.

Agree with Seagultaf that there were few outstanding individual performances - none , in fact - yet the quality was there when it was needed. Nugget - yes, sadly, it will be just be a sentimental gesture if he goes, and I don't think that's a good thing.

Also, how large a guy is Justin T ? He looked small on screen, though that may have been due to his baby face.

First of all. A big congrats to Wales.

I thought Knoyle was very good yesterday and Wales are lucky in having such a good selection of 9s for their RWC squad.

Indeed, lineout blips aside, Wales are definitely looking the best of the Home Nations in terms of WC preparedness and form.

Next to France, who are looking alarmingly good for just two games (was anyone in NZ watching yesterday?), Wales could go the furthest and a semi-final is definitely within reach.

Argentina were great to watch for the first half-hour, but you could sense their frustration at inability to pile on the points coming into their play and giving away niggly penalties/free kicks. Contemponi is lost without Hernandez in the backline, and the Welsh slowly but inevitably took control with their breakaway tries just before the halftime mark.

It's probably a pity that Wales don't have one more warm-up match given that they next face SA in the RWC pools, but an upset against the reigning world champions is a good bet.

Best of luck in the RWC.

3 big problems;

1. Injuries have meant that critical combinations haven't had enough game time together.

2. The line-out

3. Centre combination. Jamie Roberts is a powerful and showy player. But he eats the frickin' ball. Hard to think of any Wales partnership he's played in that has really given the man outside him a full chance to shine. I did have hopes for Henson-Roberts as 12-13 but ho-him.

3 big pluses;

1. Adam

2. North

3. Confidence

For the Argentinians, the commentators suggested that Wales were the only side who agreed to play a warm-up match against them. Is this true?

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:For the Argentinians, the commentators suggested that Wales were the only side who agreed to play a warm-up match against them. Is this true?

Seems to be true there was a thread about it on here yesterday.

IronMike wrote:We really are going to need Warburton against South Africa if Heinrich Brussow plays anything like he did last night

I agree but it depends if Gatland is targeting the South Africa game or not, he likes taking risks and he may only focus on Fiji and Samoa.

Well I hope we are targetting the South Africa game... If not we may as well not bother turning up to the world cup. Remember we always have the option of resting players against Namibia.

AlynDavies wrote:

IronMike wrote:We really are going to need Warburton against South Africa if Heinrich Brussow plays anything like he did last night

I agree but it depends if Gatland is targeting the South Africa game or not, he likes taking risks and he may only focus on Fiji and Samoa.

Gatts has to target SA for various reasons....neither Samoa or Fiji are a cert and we need to try and maintain the momentum. But here's the twist....an admittedly unlikely win v SA however may work against us, as it would likely lead to a probable Irish quarter and a NZ semi and i dont think we can beat NZ. If we are runner up however we are likely to draw a Aus quarter and an English semi and I think we can beat both if we have maintained momentum and not shipped too many injuries.

SA will play territory all day and clean us up at the lineout. We show sufficient aggression up front and gain any sort of parity at the breakdown then I think we have the backs to run them close.....huge game for Faletau and Warbs. I expect to see Charteris selected to address lineout...even though he is 2 miles tall he still doesn't guarantee possession but our lineout is that bad we need to do everything we can to win some ball