IRB World Rankings ... Part 1

First topic message reminder :

Current World Rankings

IRB
http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html

4Ns Round 1
http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/match/fixtures/international.html

September 2012

Sat 15 Rugby Championship / Freedom Cup
New Zealand v South Africa, Dunedin
19:35 local, 07:35 GMT, 08:35 BST

nzl (on 92.43 points) at home -vs- rsa (on 84.20 points)

If nzl win by 1-15 points 0.000 92.43 84.20 No
If nzl win by more than 15 0.000 92.43 84.20 No
If result is a draw 1.000 91.43 85.20 No
If rsa win by 1-15 points 2.000 90.43 86.20 No
If rsa win by more than 15 3.000 89.43 87.20 No

Sat 15 Rugby Championship
Australia v Argentina, Gold Coast
20:05 local, 10:05 GMT, 11:05 BST

aus (on 86.62 points) at home -vs- arg (on 79.34 points)

If aus win by 1-15 points 0.000 86.62 79.34 No
If aus win by more than 15 0.000 86.62 79.34 No
If result is a draw 1.000 85.62 80.34 No
If arg win by 1-15 points 2.000 84.62 81.34 No
If arg win by more than 15 3.000 83.62 82.34 No

[ed]

Original post:

Pretty much World rankings provide both an 'official' balance sheet and P/L account of international bragging rights.

Sources:
IRB Rankings : http://www.irb.com/rankings/index.html
Rankings explanation : http://www.irb.com/rankings/explain/index.html
Rankings archive : http://www.irb.com/rankings/archive/index.html

Online calculator (Courtesy of Robbo277 (thanks)) : http://www.lassen.co.nz/pagmisc.php#hrh

If it was just the tri-nations/6 nations sides then it would be alright but the World Cup is the only competition where all sides have access to their full squads for extended periods of time. It basically weights the ranking points in favour of the PI sides who, otherwise, only play with scratch sides.

I had a look at the last world cup to see how much difference the double points made and within a year they had smoothed out to be reasonably similar. The main difference was Argentina and where should they be ranked? Based on their performances with a full squad with reasonable training together or their performances with scratch sides?

Established, strong unions with a great amount of control over their players have a massive advantage in every games. This advantage is minimised at the World Cup. I think it's right it's given more weight.

It's an indicator Cym.

Maybe you could include competitions like the TNs or the 6Ns with greater emphasis but that would only go to distort the numbers as most of the lower teams don't get to play in the RWC.

A lot of research went into the creation of the IRB rankings system and few people disagree overall relative standings. And so long as it remains just an indicator then it doesn't hurt - and provides just a bit of spare time interest.

I suppose they must put some bias or advantage to the teams doing well.

If we are going to have a fair system then why don't we just simply decide the world cup groups by pulling the teams out of a hat.

good idea but if NZ, Aus, SA and Wales were all in the pool it might then have to be named the Mother of Pools of Death

Yeah, I'm a little confused as to why a world cup means double points? Is it because home advantage has been taken away? If so, do NZ only get single points for this world cup?!

By doubling the points surely this will make the gap between the top teams in the world and the rest even bigger (in terms of rankings obviously, not actual ability).

Also Biltong, just to pick up on your point. It would definitely make sense for the Argie players to get S15 contracts, but would the clubs be able to afford them? I'm not sure what the S15 clubs pay, but I always thought the exodus of players to the NH was to do with wages predominantly. The Argie players in Europe probably command huge wages at clubs like Clermont and Stade Francais, etc. even though they're probably not the best in the world (as demonstrated by their international performances since the last world cup). Would they move to the S15 for a lot less money?

Griff, you are correct in that the top plyers from the south go over for BIG money, but i would think most agrentinian players aren't earning BIG money just good money, and over here the pay isn't so bad.

Remember in SA for example cost of living is much lower than in Europe.

Why else would a guy like Michalack play rugby in SA, surely not just for the love of the game.

Bill, is South Africa a cheap place for tourists to visit? I've never been. I can tell you anywhere in Europe is way expensive for living and tourism.

I'll give you an idea, every year at the end of april we go to Margate ( coastal town south of durban).

Harley davidson has their annual bike week down there. Normally 10 000 tourists hit this little town for a week.

Adequate accommodation which includes a breakfast and dinner, basically a room with a shower, R300 per night, roughly 30 Euros.

If you want to eat a nice big engliash breakfast roughly 6 Euros, a Hamburger will cost you about 4 Euros.

A beer roughly 1.50 Euros, Fuel is 1 Euro per litre.

You can of course get a top class apartment for about 100 euros per day, which could be shared by a few people.

So what about the weekend?

Clearly the ABs are untouchable.

Ireland v England? And Wales / Scotland affected without playing?

Portnoy wrote:So what about the weekend?

Clearly the ABs are untouchable.

Ireland v England? And Wales / Scotland affected without playing?

Geez...can someone tell the Wallabies that...then we don't have to play...maybe...

After the Bledisloe cup:

Possible Outcome/Rating Point Exchange/New aus Rating/New nzl Rating Will aus/overtake nzl?
If aus win by 1-15 points 1.089 88.84 90.55 No
If aus win by more than 15 1.633 89.38 90.01 No
If result is a draw 0.089 87.84 91.55 No
If nzl win by 1-15 points 0.911 86.84 92.55 No
If nzl win by more than 15 1.366 86.38 93.01 No


Current E/I/S/W points:

5h E 81.82
7th I 79.57
8th S 78.83
6th W 80.79

Possible Outcome/Rating Point Exchange/New ire Rating/New eng Rating/Will ire overtake eng?
If ire win by 1-15 points 0.925 80.49 80.89 No
If ire win by more than 15 1.388 80.96 80.43 Yes
If result is a draw 0.075 79.49 81.89 No
If eng win by 1-15 points 1.075 78.49 82.89 No
If eng win by more than 15 1.612 77.96 83.43 No *


SA stay 3rd on 85.70
France stay 4th on 83.79

* ire would slip behind arg (9th) currently on 78.40.

Calculations: http://www.lassen.co.nz/pagmisc.php#hrh (thanks Robbo)

Scotland slip above Ireland I think.

Cymroglan wrote:But is there any need to double the points ? it's the same competition for all involved not every international side gets to the world cup.

it's only once every 4 years & is the true test of the worlds best - so I think it is justified.

Scotland go ahead of Ireland. In fact Ireland just stay in the top 8 by the skin of our teeth. just less than 0.1 ahead of Argentina.

After we beat England in the Six Nations we were talking about getting to a World Cup semi final. After the World Cup we might be desperately trying to win games to get into the top 8 and avoid going to the next World Cup as a 3rd seed.

IRB Rankings released - http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html

As at End of August 2011 - KRD:
Main points are France best NH Side (I suppose we knew that)
Ireland down to lowest ever position of 8th
Scotland above them
And Wales upto 6th


Edit: KRD - all, making this a sticky so people can refence the rankings

61(62)^ CHINA 41.78

Here they come. The unstoppable force!

France gave away a few points to Italy.

I love the way Finland are below Luxembourg, Andorra and some country called Vanuatu(?) That's pretty poor!

Bet Finland would beat them at driving through a forest with packed ice though.

Finland won their first international for a long while against Greece back in June. On the point of Greece, i'd assume if they had a bit of money to fly players out they could put out a really strong team. Loads of players with Greek roots playing in Wales. Any one remember the Fairwater lads flying out to play for Malta back years ago?

Vanuatu is a pacific island.

Scotland's highest ever ranking position of 7th, there'll be some gloating tomorrow!...

nottins_jones wrote:Scotland's highest ever ranking position of 7th, there'll be some gloating tomorrow!...

Wrong, as per usual. Scotland were ranked 6th on 22nd Novemember 2010: http://www.irb.com/rankings/news/newsid=2040894.html

As per usual? Haha... No need to keep following me around the site being pedantic just because I angered you . It's not a productive hobbie. If geocaching isn't that good a hobby then try eating, listening to music, badminton, drinking, sports, reading...

Also check out what a quick google search of "Scotland's highest irb ranking" gives us: http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=scotlands+highest+irb+ranking&pbx=1&oq=scotlands+highest+irb+ranking&aq=f&aqi=q-w1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1578l18390l0l19359l29l9l0l1l1l0l4859l9782l2-1.3.0.1.1.9-2l8l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=27e0217b71aa87c7&biw=1280&bih=742 (see the top result). No you aren't pedantic at all!

India and Pakistan are 2 teams you should keep an eye on. There is an organisation called the British Asian Rugby Association (BARA), which helps players with Asian heritage play for their countries. Can you imagine all the players with an Asian background who could qualify?

Russia I also think will be a force soon, rugby is on their school national curriculum now, because of rugby's Olympic status. In other words every school boy in Russia is forced to play it! (That's a lot of school boys)

They also have a fully professional league, with clubs having operating budgets in the region of 3.5 million Euroes. Their clubs have also been lobbying hard to be included in European club compatitions.

Throw in the fact that a lot of the professionals team have built, or are building new purpose built stadiums, including training facilities.

Their also bringing in coaches from other countries to try and raise standards, Kingsley Jones, Darren Morris and Henry Paul are part of the Russian national team set up.

Krasny Yar Krasnoyarsk one of their premier clubs, who have an operating budget of 2.5m Euros, have a tie up with Canterbury Crusaders and go down to New Zealand for 4 weeks pre-season to get fit.
They have signed 5 New Zealand players for this coming season including Pehi Te Whare a Nz Maori player.

Smirnoffpriest what about England?

Are France really the best NH side? They've only had two warm-up games and lost to Italy earlier this year.

Englishreign I would say all the teams are very similar in the NH. Even Italy aren't that far off. Ireland's lack of form bar one good performance against England is strange.

Can't really fault the rankings though would probably swap England and France.

I wrote an article ( https://www.606v2.com/t11084-irb-world-rankings) asking whether a IRB rankings should be a sticky on the International section on 606v2.

Currently at the time ~80% of the 51 posters who have voted are in favour. And I notice that two new articles have appeared today which are rankings related.

Next Monday morning I'll be raising the issue with Hobo to see if it will be taken up.

So if you want to record your opinion then vote at https://www.606v2.com/t11084-irb-world-rankings.


Edit - KRD, will be merging this thread in with the new Rankings Sticky

Agree with that beshocked. I'm not trying to wind anyone up, I just don't really understand how the rankings work if France are 4th. Agree that all the NH teams are close though.

Coleman wrote:Finland won their first international for a long while against Greece back in June. On the point of Greece, i'd assume if they had a bit of money to fly players out they could put out a really strong team. Loads of players with Greek roots playing in Wales. Any one remember the Fairwater lads flying out to play for Malta back years ago?

You're thinking of the Sultana brothers I believe - LINK

I find it hard to believe France are above England too.

BATH_BTGOG wrote: Smirnoffpriest what about England?

I didn't think it was any suprise that England had stayed 5th, their a good team as the rankings show - I highlighted what I thought were the unusual rankings or the big changes. (i.e Scotland/Ireland).

No disrespect meant

Plus if you look at the rankings there's less than a point between France and England, and aren't these results taken over the course of 4 years?

I take it that there is little objection to RWC rankings becoming a sticky.

Portnoy wrote:I take it that there is little objection to RWC rankings becoming a sticky.

Only IF Wales stay in the top 6

It is a sticky!

I'd probably put both Wales and England above France though. I suppose they did slam it last year, but they also got pastings from Aus and NZ before dicking about in this year's 6N.

They're taken over all time I think. They started with the first games and all teams on equal points and worked it out from there.

France are up there because they didn't lose to Wales and the loss to Italy a few games ago now.

Interesting. What a flucking waste of time making it democratic and gaining consensus and giving extra time for posters to express an opinion.

Portnoy wrote:Interesting. What a flucking waste of time making it democratic and gaining consensus and giving extra time for posters to express an opinion.

It's only a game mun...

Portnoy wrote:Interesting. What a flucking waste of time making it democratic and gaining consensus and giving extra time for posters to express an opinion.

What are you on about now? You wanted it to be made a sticky, ran a poll where 80% or whatever agreed with you and yet you're still unhappy when it is made a sticky. Only you.

PenfroPete wrote:

Coleman wrote:Finland won their first international for a long while against Greece back in June. On the point of Greece, i'd assume if they had a bit of money to fly players out they could put out a really strong team. Loads of players with Greek roots playing in Wales. Any one remember the Fairwater lads flying out to play for Malta back years ago?

You're thinking of the Sultana brothers I believe - LINK

Thats the one. Sometimes i wish i had a grandparent who was from somewhere far off so i could get me some international caps. Dosnt seem Gats is keeping an eye on Div 3 SE

Unfortunately the debate has been lost unless...

You asked for something, it was done. It wasn't about debate. Not everything on the forum has to be about debate.

The drama is a bit OTT.

EnglishReign wrote:Are France really the best NH side? They've only had two warm-up games and lost to Italy earlier this year.

They wouldn't have lost to Italy if the ref had had the balls to award them a penalty in the shadow of Italy's posts in the dying seconds.

When this post gets fixed:

I've PMed Robbo277 to ask him to host the sticky - he's the board expert on the matter.

RWC Rankings First week-end (i.e. before any country plays a second game)
All countries playing on neutral territory except nzl.
Double points for RWC*

Fixtures source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/fixtures/4776295.stm

Friday, 9 September 2011
New Zealand v Tonga, PlA, 09:30

Saturday, 10 September 2011
Argentina v England, PlB, 09:30
Fiji v Namibia, PlD, 04:30
France v Japan, PlA, 07:00
Scotland v Romania, PlB, 02:00

Sunday, 11 September 2011
Australia v Italy, PlC, 04:30
Ireland v USA, PlC, 07:00
South Africa v Wales, PlD, 09:30

* Don't shoot the messenger

Pool A

Possible Outcome /Rating Point /Exchange New 'home' Rating /New 'away' Rating / Will 'home overtake 'away'?
If nzl win by 1-15 points 0.000 90.55 72.48 No
If nzl win by more than 15 0.000 90.55 72.48 No
If result is a draw 2.000 88.55 74.48 No
If ton win by 1-15 points 4.000 86.55 76.48 No
If ton win by more than 15 6.000 84.55 78.48 No

If fra win by 1-15 points 0.000 83.78 71.95 No
If fra win by more than 15 0.000 83.78 71.95 No
If result is a draw 2.000 81.78 73.95 No
If jap win by 1-15 points 4.000 79.78 75.95 No
If jap win by more than 15 6.000 77.78 77.95 Yes

Pool B

Possible Outcome /Rating Point /Exchange New 'home' Rating /New 'away' Rating / Will 'home overtake 'away'?
If arg win by 1-15 points 2.898 81.30 79.99 Yes
If arg win by more than 15 4.347 82.75 78.54 Yes
If result is a draw 0.898 79.30 81.99 No
If eng win by 1-15 points 1.102 77.30 83.99 No
If eng win by more than 15 1.653 76.75 84.54 No

If sco win by 1-15 points 0.000 78.83 65.69 No
If sco win by more than 15 0.000 78.83 65.69 No
If result is a draw 2.000 76.83 67.69 No
If rom win by 1-15 points 4.000 74.83 69.69 No
If rom win by more than 15 6.000 72.83 71.69 No


Pool C
Possible Outcome /Rating Point /Exchange New 'home' Rating /New 'away' Rating / Will 'home overtake 'away'?
If aus win by 1-15 points 0.000 88.84 73.88 No
If aus win by more than 15 0.000 88.84 73.88 No
If result is a draw 2.000 86.84 75.88 No
If ita win by 1-15 points 4.000 84.84 77.88 No
If ita win by more than 15 6.000 82.84 79.88 No

If ire win by 1-15 points 0.000 78.50 65.00 No
If ire win by more than 15 0.000 78.50 65.00 No
If result is a draw 2.000 76.50 67.00 No
If usa win by 1-15 points 4.000 74.50 69.00 No
If usa win by more than 15 6.000 72.50 71.00 No

Pool D

Possible Outcome /Rating Point /Exchange New 'home' Rating /New 'away' Rating / Will 'home overtake 'away'?

If fij win by 1-15 points 0.118 70.95 61.30 No
If fij win by more than 15 0.177 71.01 61.24 No
If result is a draw 1.882 68.95 63.30 No
If nam win by 1-15 points 3.882 66.95 65.30 No
If nam win by more than 15 5.823 65.01 67.24 Yes

If saf win by 1-15 points 1.020 86.71 79.77 No
If saf win by more than 15 1.530 87.22 79.26 No
If result is a draw 0.980 84.71 81.77 No
If wal win by 1-15 points 2.980 82.71 83.77 Yes
If wal win by more than 15 4.470 81.22 85.26 Yes


Begins to illustrate that the x2 RWC points kick in.