Floyd and manny in the 80's!!! Easier in testing greatness??

Suppose it's contentious but I believe Mayweather could be great in any era where as Manny would need to have stayed lower down to have prospered maybe I'm wrong......Think perhaps Manny's greatness and he is great is more due to timing rather than any great talent threshold....

Perhaps I'm wrong..

122 Manny vs Pintor - Manny

126 Manny vs Sanchez - Sanchez

130 Floyd vs Chavez - Floyd
Manny vs Nelson - pick em..

135 Floyd vs Whittaker - pick em
Manny vs Whittaker - Whittaker

140 Floyd vs Pryor - Pryor
Manny vs Pryor - Pryor

147 Floyd vs Curry - pickem
Manny vs Curry - Curry

154 Floyd vs mccallum - mccallum
Manny vs mccallum - mccallum

Floyd's greatness is, arguably, hampered more by his absence of great fights against great fighters, not really his boxing ability which really is up there among the best. Therefore I think Manny would be as exciting a fighter in any era, though his actual success may vary, but Floyd would be little different to now, exceptionally talented but his 'greatness' would only be improved if he actually took those big fights.

Disclaimer: I'm not calling Floyd a ducker, please don't let this thread degenerate into that debate!

With respect to the fights above, Floyd v Sweet Pea, can see that bit one dull cagey fight! Though I'd pick Pernell to come out on top....

Sorry, Truss, just so I'm clear, you feel that Pacquiao and Mayweather both have an even-money chance of turning over McCallum at 154?

Never. Never. Never. Neither of them would so much have entertained the prospect of getting into the ring with Mike at 154. Like Floyd's chances better against Pryor, and they're a long shot.

No sorry man sausage up I'l edit mccallum beats both for me....

I'd echo the captain there, Truss; I can maybe understand you thinking that Mayweather might (might being the key word) have a slim chance against McCallum at 154 lb - but Manny? I'd fancy 'The Bodysnatcher' to grind Manny's bones to make his bread at Light-Middleweight. What Pacquiao fight has made you think he could even compete with a standout Light-Middleweight champion, nevermind THE standout one in McCallum?

Think though whilst some of the matchups are debatable.how important timing is.....

Ignore my last post Truss, just seen that you've edited the article!

When you say Manny vs McCallum is a "pick 'em", I assume you meant fragments of Manny's ribcage from his lungs

DAVE667 wrote:When you say Manny vs McCallum is a "pick 'em", I assume you meant fragments of Manny's ribcage from his lungs

It's alright, he backed down. Strongback was right, he's a bit spineless these days.

Keep up with the times...

Come now, just cos it's now been edited to look like this is your original opinion, doesn't mean some of us haven't read your first offering.

Please believe me when I say I have mccallum as the best or 2nd best jr midd of alltime.....as a result the victor..

What interests me is if anybody disagrees with the winner in any of my matchups..

Well, Chris and Captain did when you said it was a pick 'em

Also thought you were a massive fan of Nelson so I'm surprised you have him and Manny as a pick 'em as well

Manny's work rate as opposed to Nelson's class....Azumah could sometimes be lazy..

Even over fifteen? Does Nelson not break him down eventually? What about Nelson's high guard, does Manny not just land on gloves and arms a lot?

it's not such a stretch guys... it's become very trendy to have a mcCallum love-in, ducked by the fab four etc etc. If he can lose to Kalambay and squeak by bomber when in his pomp, it's not outrageous to say he'd have his work cut out against the two best fighters of our generation.

Mike was a big light middle and the two fights i've picked were at middle, so i'd favour him against pac and fmj. He always had trouble with slick boxers though (he was being outboxed by Curry at light middle before the haymaker landed too), so only an idiot would write floyd off against him.... queue idiots

i don't think it's an easy fight for Mike Milky..Just think his pressure may have told at 154.....Certainly would have forced Floyd to work!!!!

milkyboy wrote:it's not such a stretch guys... it's become very trendy to have a mcCallum love-in, ducked by the fab four etc etc. If he can lose to Kalambay and squeak by bomber when in his pomp, it's not outrageous to say he'd have his work cut out against the two best fighters of our generation.

Mike was a big light middle and the two fights i've picked were at middle, so i'd favour him against pac and fmj. He always had trouble with slick boxers though (he was being outboxed by Curry at light middle before the haymaker landed too), so only an idiot would write floyd off against him.... queue idiots

Neither Kalambay or Graham were at 154 lb, where McCallum was a totally different animal as you allude to, and besides, Mayweather and Pacquiao's greatness lay below that weight division to begin with. They'd simply be too small to mix it with McCallum at Light-Middleweight for starters, and Manny's style in particular would play right in to the Jamaican's hands.

Floyd and Manny are great - but great Light-Middleweights, they aren't.

not suggesting Floyd at 154 is an easy fight though are you Chris.....

pac v nelson.

I'm a big Nelson fan, but Truss is right he could be lazy and he didn't have Manny's handspeed. Given that Manny has never looked chinny and zoomah's biggest strength was his power, i'd be erring towards a manny points win

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:not suggesting Floyd at 154 is an easy fight though are you Chris.....

Not easy by any means Truss. But one I still can't see McCallum losing all the same. As I said earlier, I can understand people perhaps giving Floyd a slight chance against McCallum, but I don't think it's anything more than a small chance. Mayweather could potentially beat the greatest Light-Welterweights in a one-off fight. He could potentially beat some of the all-time greatest Welterweights too, I reckon. But the greatest Light-Middleweight of them all? Sorry, just too much of a stretch for me. I think McCallum takes a points win over Mayweather by three or four rounds, and I think he stops Pacquiao anywhere after the middle rounds.

Milky, I've never quite bought the notion that McCallum was being totally outboxed by Curry when he landed the KO punch. Certainly, Curry had shown a return to something like his best form, but it wasn't Mike's eye that had an evil looking swelling over it after four rounds, nor was it McCallum who was wincing with every body shot landed. At best, I saw it as 2-1 to Curry in rounds after four, with one even. Never had much doubt that Mike was going to cut him down by the last third of the contest, regardless of that left hook.

I also don't believe that his middleweight days can be described as Mike's pomp. He was a bit hit and miss at 160, for me, clearly a lesser fighter than he had been at 154, although good enough by most standards. At 154, he was a savage, openly ducked by Duran and rather avoided by Manny Steward, who knew him well enough. Absurd to suggest that Pacquiao, with his style of fighting, would have been anything but steamrollered, for me. Totally fanciful, in any case, with what we know about Pacman's weight demands, that he would have even gone in with Mike at the weight. Floyd might have enough ability to befuddle Mike for a while, but I couldn't see him maintaining it for twelve.

I had it 4-0 with mccallum badly shaken in the 2nd....Peoples eyes swell if one shot hits the right place doesn't show an effectiveness of performance...

Could be right about him coming on strong..he's proved that.....

I think Curry did outbox him though Captain.....The scorecards differ with your assessment..

Not by much, they don't. Two of the three judges had a difference of one round. Jerry Roth somehow saw a shutout. And badly shaken? Come now, Mike's legs dipped after a good shot from Curry, but let's not exaggerate. Clearly Don's round, no more than that.

3-1, 3-1 4-0.....Is a different story to 2-1......

I'm being pedantic we saw the fight differently.........However you are correct in your prediction of mccallum coming on strong....

I'd have gone for Curry over 12 Mike over 15..

No, not 3-1, 3-1, 4-0...40-36 (4-0) 39-38 (2-1-1), 38-37 (trying to work this one out, but presumably 2-2, with a 10-8 round to Don in the 2nd).

Leaving aside the unexpected finish, McCallum by the 10th, whatever the fight distance, would be my guess.

mccrory fell in the 10th......

Indeed he did. I'm sure you're not suggesting that because Don had KO'd Milt in 2 at 147, it automatically follows that Don would have got past the tenth against Mike at 154. That would be a touch simplistic, I think you would agree...

i'll leave Captain and Truss to argue out that fight. My point was, it was possible to outbox mccallum. He was at his best at light middle Captain clearly, but was late into the game and fought successfully until he was 40, so his first fight at middle at 31 should still be relative prime.

Chris, Hagler was a great middle and leonard a great welter. You favour the great at a higher weight obviously, but it's no shoe in.

I think on these boards we have a habit of revering the under appreciated and sometimes going too far the other way imo. Graham was a small middle, floyd is a better fighter than graham. Floyd beating McCallum is far from impossible... but McCallum would be favourite obviously.

In a similar vein...Aaron Pryor was my favourite fighter growing up. so i sometimes overlook his only big wins were against a smaller ageing great in Arguello. Sometimes on here we (i include myself here as well) seem to think he was invincible. I'd be hard pressed to say that Pryor would definitley beat the pacman i watched destroy hatton and cotto, or the floyd who barely lost a round at light welter

No I'm not suggesting that but Mike hadn't really shown the desire to cut the ring off as he did in the Milton fight and he seemed to struggle with Curry's angles and speed more.....Couldn't get on top o Kalambay although you say a different beast at 154!!

Not sure 12 rounds would have been enough although 15 was in his favor..

think you're being unfair to Curry and the problems he posed...

Milky, again I'll stress that we're talking about Light-Middleweight here, so the Graham fight is a little bit of a moot point. As I said to Truss, I'm not suggesting for a single second that McCallum has an easy night against Mayweather, or that he blows him away, just that I can't for the life of me see him losing to Mayweather at 154 lb. A frustrating four rounds against Curry just doesn't convince me otherwise, particularly as Mayweather isn't going to stand in front against McCallum in such a way.

As I said earlier, put Mayweather in with any Light-Welterweight in history and I feel he's in with a good shout, even Pryor. But not at Light-Middleweight. McCallum would just be a step too far for him, and a quantum leap too far for Manny.

High regard for Mccallum on here by all it seems..

What you say is true, Truss, but I would point out that the fight was still in its relatively early days. Even against McCrory, Mike had not looked especially fabulous early on, but just ground him down with that withering body attack. After 5 rounds, I'd have argued that McCallum was behind against Milt as well, but as in the Curry fight, he was showing signs of taking control by that stage. I saw those signs in the fourth round of McCallum-Curry as well, and think that it would have been a long second half of the fight for Don, whatever had happened. With the exception of the Jackson fight, the pattern of McCallum's title fights at 154 rarely varied.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:High regard for Mccallum on here by all it seems..

Hope I'm not coming across as 'McCallum great, Mayweather not' here, Trussman. Pound for pound, I think Mayweather is the greater talent and fighter...But he's just not anywhere near McCallum as Light-Middleweight, at least in my eyes.

Thought his performance against Jackson was awesome...however Mannion did go 15 and he was ordinary....

As I say he was a slowish starter generally........

15 definitely suited him..

Chris, i caveated the fight weights in my first post. I'm looking at styles... McCallum destroyed fighters who came to him, he was less convincing against organised talented defensive boxers. So you can choose to ignore the fights against kalambay and graham if you wish, i'm picking them as stylistic pointers, just as I could throw toney into the mix.

I appreciate McCallum was at his best at light middle, and i entirely take your point that light middle is a stretch for pac and mayweather. Hence I agree with your fight predictions... i just wouldn't be betting my house on it.

Milky if i'm honest i'd back Graham and Kalambay to do a number on both Pacquiao and Mayweather at middleweight, better fighters pound for pound obviously but neither have the power or strength to survive long against McCallum.

Absolutely the natural weight differential would be scary..

Saying that though Graham knew how to lose fights he should win.

Joe Calzaghe gives his opinion on Manny v Floyd
(Interview with Hobo ahead of the Wales v England match for the John Hartson Trophy tonight)

55 seconds in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl6uXLBxlr8

Y I Man wrote:Joe Calzaghe gives his opinion on Manny v Floyd
(Interview with Hobo ahead of the Wales v England match for the John Hartson Trophy tonight)

55 seconds in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl6uXLBxlr8

Quality, nice one.

Y I Man wrote:Joe Calzaghe gives his opinion on Manny v Floyd
(Interview with Hobo ahead of the Wales v England match for the John Hartson Trophy tonight)

55 seconds in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl6uXLBxlr8

We might be a pain in the arse at times but you guys do a good job (on the whole )

Manny vs Pryor would be a seriously entertaining fight while it lasted. Pryor is a beast and with the relative ease that Pacquiao gets hit I'd fancy the hawk to overpower him.