If you had to pick a Lions Squad Now...........excl vets.

First topic message reminder :

Its been a while since weve had one of these.

Picking your squad on the 6N, Warm-Ups and first few rounds of WC who would you select?

Scots
Grey
Lawson
Ansbro
Barclay
Sean Lamont
Max Evans

Welsh
Phillips
Roberts
A.Jones
Warburton
Alun Wyn
Hook
Priestland
North


Irish
O'Brien
Mike Ross
Cian Healy
Heaslip
Sexton
Bowe
Ferris

English
Lawes
Stevens
Hartley
Palmer
Croft
Youngs
Flood
Ashton
Foden

I have left out a lot of the test veterans on purpose.
Who have I left out?

Beshocked relax I'm just yanking your chain

There's a number of English guys who almost made my side like Haskell, Foden, Cole, Plamer, Ashton etc. but I've gone for WC form so far and England, bar one or two individuals, have not been impressive so far.

Hey don't let that Argentina win go to your head though, you only beat them by 4 points and only scored one try

Feckless

Your team and particularly the pack is spot on.

Feckless Rogue wrote:01. Healy
02. Hartley
03. A Jones
04. Lawes
05. POC
06. Ferris
07. Warburton
08. O'Brien
09. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Physical pack, skillful half backs and pace and power in the back five. Just noticed I didn't pick any Scots. Is that allowed?

Feckless - probably the best 15 chosen so far, save that with my one eye firmly blinking, there's no way I would have Lawes instead of Gray on current form.

Very interesting that Healey is apparently nailed on at 1, suddenly!

Fair point George although i would be happy with either.

I fail to see how anyone who's watched the last two games could select Hartley ahead of Best (or indeed anyone) at Hooker.

Thompson has been much better than Hartley as well.

Hartley had a great 6N and has been excellent for Northampton. I cant stand the guy but Rory has to back up his last two performances and i would be happy to drop Hartley

Hartleys sin binning against Georgia was almost comical it was so numbskulled.

The England scrum was mullered with him and Stevens there too doing a folding deckchair impression.

Thompson saved Englands bacon and Best was in the NZ herald team of the week.

Paul O'Connell would be my first name on the team sheet. I didn't know who to go for between Lawes and Gray or between Hartley and Best. I went for the two Northampton men because I watched them a lot last year and saw some great demolition jobs done by their pack. Like when they played Ulster. I would have no problem with Gray and Best though.

The 14 jersey is difficult too. Bowe or Ashton? I picked Ashton but now that I think about it, Bowe probably gives a more well rounded game.

Given that Hartley cant even hold down the England shirt at the moment Id take Thompson ( im assuming we are picking for a Lions game tommorrrow as the world cup has been abandonned)

Aside form that pretty much as Feckless has it, maybe Gray or Palmer over Lawes. Possibly Flood over Sexton.

Is Dan Cole really in-form? I thought he was struggling a bit in the warm-ups, and the WC hasnt been the best for him. Although playing oposite massive packs.

The pick of the props for England in the 6N where the English scrum was on song, in the warm ups where he took the talented Paul James apart and did well vs Ireland and then so far he has held his own against Argentina (silly sin binning aside) and against Georgia he was the difference between Stevens being sinbinned for repeated infringement at the scrum by keep the thing steady until the cavalry came on. After Corbs and Thompson came on Cole stuffed his opposite number in the remaining scrums. Dan is quickly becomming a top class scrummager though his loose work isn't on the same level as some of his contempories. Adam Jones might just nudge him to the bench in terms of Lions selection.

I agree with that. Adam Jones would be my first choice tighthead, Cole second and probably Ross or Euan Murray third.

Stevens' big trump card is his versatility. In the loose he is a great prop. In the tight he is no more than adequate. Could could take him as a 5th prop covering both sides.

My looseheads would be Sheridan and Healy. That may change once I've seen what Gethin Jenkins looks like, but he hasn't played in ages.

In terms of props i dont get the whole "we saw XX destroy XX in the scrum".

the front row (more than any) is a unit, all it takes is 1 weak link in that unit to see someone there suffer. god curse the amount of skullduggery that goes on in that little department at each scrum.

Huw Bennett for the lions!

I'm with FES on this, definitely take Sheridan, Healy, Cole and Jones as the props with a versatile Stevens to cover each. Hookers Thompson, Best and Rees as Ford just hasn't looked on top for a while now.

Feckless Rogue wrote:01. Healy
02. Hartley
03. A Jones
04. Lawes
05. POC
06. Ferris
07. Warburton
08. O'Brien
09. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Physical pack, skillful half backs and pace and power in the back five. Just noticed I didn't pick any Scots. Is that allowed?

This is the team for me, the backrow is frankly terrifying! Though for some reason I'd be more inclined to put Haskell at 8 and have either Ferris or SOB on the bench. Have it in my head that SOB doesn't play great at 8. Didn't he start there (or was it at 7?) in the HC final where he was anonymous until he was moved to 6?

Also on the bench for me would be Best, Stevens (only for versatility, would be cole otherwise), Gray, Hook, Halfpenny/Armitage. Im struggling to think of an in form scrum half, can't remember how they are all playing for some reason!

O'Brien has won man of the match awards in the Heineken Cup in all three back row positions. 7 is probably his weakest. You want him getting his hands on the ball and carrying relentlessly. He can definitely do that at 8.

hook will not be in a lions side. you have to have someone whos a nailed on 10, 12, or 15 and then select him to cover ,if he would not be first choice for his best position. hook is not first choice for any position.

[quote="belovedfrosties"]

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Also on the bench for me would be Best, Stevens (only for versatility, would be cole otherwise), Gray, Hook, Halfpenny/Armitage. Im struggling to think of an in form scrum half, can't remember how they are all playing for some reason!

Danny Care was starting to motor before his injury - probably would have started over Wigglesworth for England.

Though for some reason I'd be more inclined to put Haskell at 8 and have either Ferris or SOB on the bench

I'd want to have Croft on the bench, very impressive last time out for the Lions and can inject pace to the game as well as adding a very good lineout option should we need another weapon at the set piece. Haskell certainly wouldn't be on my list to start if a specialist 8 was required Heaslip would be a better option.

Feckless Rogue wrote:O'Brien has won man of the match awards in the Heineken Cup in all three back row positions. 7 is probably his weakest. You want him getting his hands on the ball and carrying relentlessly. He can definitely do that at 8.

Always throught that SOB would make a better 8 than anything else - his carrying is barnstorming, his work at the breakdown the only real weakness. He would be a superb 8 for the Lions, picking up at the back of a scrum and charging.

George Carlin wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:O'Brien has won man of the match awards in the Heineken Cup in all three back row positions. 7 is probably his weakest. You want him getting his hands on the ball and carrying relentlessly. He can definitely do that at 8.

Always throught that SOB would make a better 8 than anything else - his carrying is barnstorming, his work at the breakdown the only real weakness. He would be a superb 8 for the Lions, picking up at the back of a scrum and charging.

The other problem is he is only 6'2 which means he doesn't offer a good line out option against the likes of Parisse, Harinordique etc. If you watch the Ireland v Italy game where SOB played at 8 you can see how easily the Italians picked the Irish lineout apart.

I think he is a very good 8 but you need tall flankers to compensate.

I'm not sure about this breakdown criticism. I've seen him cause some absolute havoc at the breakdown and win some crucial turnovers for Leinster so I'm not sure if thats a bit off a myth. Maybe some of the Leinster boys could comment?

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:God almighty - to half of you GREY is a colour, GRAY is a name. About as intelligent as Americans !

lol, my surname is GREY!! who looks stupid now!! lol

roddersm wrote:Hartleys sin binning against Georgia was almost comical it was so numbskulled.

The England scrum was mullered with him and Stevens there too doing a folding deckchair impression.

Thompson saved Englands bacon and Best was in the NZ herald team of the week.

Have you read the rubbish that paper put outs? I wouldn't base your own opinion on there's!!

roddersm wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:O'Brien has won man of the match awards in the Heineken Cup in all three back row positions. 7 is probably his weakest. You want him getting his hands on the ball and carrying relentlessly. He can definitely do that at 8.

Always throught that SOB would make a better 8 than anything else - his carrying is barnstorming, his work at the breakdown the only real weakness. He would be a superb 8 for the Lions, picking up at the back of a scrum and charging.

The other problem is he is only 6'2 which means he doesn't offer a good line out option against the likes of Parisse, Harinordique etc. If you watch the Ireland v Italy game where SOB played at 8 you can see how easily the Italians picked the Irish lineout apart.

I think he is a very good 8 but you need tall flankers to compensate.

I'm not sure about this breakdown criticism. I've seen him cause some absolute havoc at the breakdown and win some crucial turnovers for Leinster so I'm not sure if thats a bit off a myth. Maybe some of the Leinster boys could comment?

O’Brien is just as good as Heaslip (for example) at the breakdown. He’s more likely to get stuck in and try to rip the ball out than he is to clear out and counter ruck but he’s really class at winning penalties. If you look at the HC final, he won 1 or 2 crucial penalties in the first half when we were being blown off the park.

He didn’t improve drastically in the second half when he went to 6, but he was afforded the ability to carry because Jennings was now in the role of the jackal so he had a much more visible impact on the game.

The other problem is he is only 6'2 which means he doesn't offer a good line out option against the likes of Parisse, Harinordique etc. If you watch the Ireland v Italy game where SOB played at 8 you can see how easily the Italians picked the Irish lineout apart.

Isn't Warburton a viable lineout option? I so throw him up instead or bring in Tom Croft he is a top class flanker who is excellent in the line out. If you had SOB in the team there would probabley be a tendancy to cut the lineout and have him storming into the line somewhere off of a set play move. Pick the weakest tackler in the opposition midfield and just have the bloke keep smashing him.

Looking at it from a squad perpective, and assuming we take something like 37 players (i.e. two full teams plus one set of replacements), I think we'll have something like (not in particular order):

Loose head - Healy, Gethin Jenkins
Tight head - Cole, Adam Jones
Reserve (either side) - Stevens

Hooker - Best, Hartley, Rees

2nd row - O'Connell, Lawes, Gray, Alun Wyn-Jones, Palmer (or Brad Davies if he gets back to form)

6 - Ferris, Croft
7 - O'Brien, Warburton
8 - Heaslip, Faletau
Versatile reserve - Haskell

9 - Youngs, Lawson, Reddan

10 - Sexton, Flood, Priestland
12 - Roberts, Hook
13 - BOD, Manu T

11 - Lamont, North
14 - Bowe, Ashton
15 - Foden, Armitage
Versatile reserve - Max Evans

Like the options at prop, but not at hooker (probably the weakest area at the moment).
2nd row looks potentially exciting
Back row also lots of good options other than second choice 8 (Faletau or Haskell, both have a lot still to prove at the highest level).
Not happy with the options at 9 other than Youngs
10 is looking encouragingly strong in depth
Not too sure about 12 - Roberts is fine but Hook is really there for versatility and you'd end up with Lamont, Flood or Sexton having to cover from the bench. Other options (Hape, D'Arcy) do not excite me.
13 could be a real fight for the jersey with Ansbro being well in the mix too.
Back 3 options offer plenty of running threat and power

1 Healy
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 O'Connell
6 O'Brien
7 Warburton
8 Haskell
9 Youngs
10 Sexton
11 Ashton
12 Hook
13 Tuilagi
14 Bowe
15 Foden

Not sure about some of those calls Dummy, for starters I wouldn't be taking SOB as an openside option as it's not his best position I have been rather underwhelmed by Faletau so would sacrifice him and take another genuine openside be it Jennings, Armitage, Rennie or Barclay.

Hook at 12? Only if he could find some serious form and get back in the Welsh midfield otherwise I'd look at a youngster like McFadden or Twelvetrees, they might not be established but they both have shown more form of late.

Reddan?!? I don't think he is the best scrum half in Ireland let alone 3rd best in Britain and Ireland. One of Care, Cusiter or the young Irish chappy (can't remember his name, Munster 9). On current form I'd leave AWJ at home and look towards Kellock or Deacon who will boss the set piece for the mid week team and offer reliable cover to the first choice selection. Ditto Thompson over Hartley.

Barclay is a good shout for openside. There are no brilliant Irish scrum halves. And the weird thing is, there never really has been in the whole history of rugby.

Absolutely agree with this:

Comfort wrote:the front row (more than any) is a unit, all it takes is 1 weak link in that unit to see someone there suffer.

That is why the statement below, whilst true, was also missing the factor of Craig Mitchell, who is a fairly raw prop and not the best scrummager in the world, though I hope that will change over the next few seasons, as he puts a good effort in in the loose and has a really good attitude (part of the reason for leaving the Ospreys, as well as to be in the first team?)

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

The pick of the props for England in the 6N where the English scrum was on song, in the warm ups where he took the talented Paul James apart.

Sam

WIth regard to O'Brien, I know he's really a blind side flanker, but that's an area where the squad could be really strong and he did a more than adequate job in the 7 shirt for Ireland against Aus (noting that Ireland haven't played with a 'fetcher' at 7 for many years - Wallace being another big ball carrier rather than a traditional 7). Really though I consider most of the back row choices as interchangable.
Fair enough on Faletau - I think there is potential there but only seen in flashes so far. Not sure though that any of the genuine 7s would improve the squad.

Hook will almost certainly be in the squad somewhere, so the 12 spot was really a notional placing. The Lions are though potentially really weak at 12 - Roberts then who? The guys you named (plus Allen) would be a real gamble as they currently have no real international experience. OK, by 2013 that may have changed and one will have shown their worth, but it's a stab in the dark at the moment.

No objections to someone other than Reddan being in the squad at 9 - the little I've seen of the new Irish lad suggests he might well be a star in the making, but again that's the issue - not yet proven.

I wouldn't have Tuilagi in the first team squad. Good midweek option, but for me, not developed enough yet to play the really, high quality test matches (I know this might sound crazy in that he's one of England's best players at the moment, but I'm massively hungover, and it's difficult to try and express what in my head sounds right).

I think it's fair to say that in two years time the rugby world will be very different, and positions we feel weak at the moment might be strong, and vice versa. Look at Wales with the back row; for years there was no one at 7 other than Martyn Williams. Now there is the world class Warburton, the potentially close to that standard Turnbull (will almost certainly suffer due to lack of gametime), and the exciting Tipuric. All came through in the last two years.

dummy_half wrote:Hook will almost certainly be in the squad somewhere, so the 12 spot was really a notional placing. The Lions are though potentially really weak at 12 - Roberts then who? The guys you named (plus Allen) would be a real gamble as they currently have no real international experience. OK, by 2013 that may have changed and one will have shown their worth, but it's a stab in the dark at the moment.

by 2013 I'd imagine behind Roberts for the 12 spot we'd seeplayers like Twelvetrees/Scott Williams/McFadden(is McFadden considered a natural 12 who can play out of position?)

Thats 3 ridiculously talented players who have the potential to go on to anything they want. Obviously all players dont turn out how we hope early on in their career, but theres no shortage of young talent coming through in any position across the 4 nations (Scotland less so purely down to the number of pro-clubs) and by 2013 lions/2015 World cup we could see some very strong home-nations sides. Professionalism seems to be really kicking in, lets share the love.

Not sure though that any of the genuine 7s would improve the squad.

They might not be as crucial as they used to be but genuine sevens can still play an important role in big games. Look at the effect Jennings had when he came on for Leinster in the HEC Final, the impact on the breakdown was massive as it allowed the big Leinster ball carriers to get back to moving the ball and allowed them to get the ball moving. You say SOB did ok vs Australia but I'm willing to bet he and the Irish team would have been less effective had Pocock been playing and doing what any good seven does, slow/steal ball. Well worth having a scavenger in the squad even if they aren't a natural selection they may come in useful.

I wouldn't have Tuilagi in the first team squad. Good midweek option, but for me, not developed enough yet to play the really, high quality test matches

No but at the moment he would make the ideal under study to BOD don't you think? By 2013 the legendary BOD is likely to be retired but if we were selecting a team here and now BOD would still be selected.

Mark my words people, that 13 shirt will belong to Nevin Spence come the 2013 Lions squad

You tell them Rory!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Not sure though that any of the genuine 7s would improve the squad.

They might not be as crucial as they used to be but genuine sevens can still play an important role in big games..

Eh!? Did you not see the impact Pocock's absence had on Australia against Ireland!?!

Unfortunately we won't know what impact Pocock would or wouldn't have had. Maybe he still would have struggled against such an aggressive and hard working irish pack? Maybe O'Brien would still have had one of his best ever games at 7 and even outplayed him? I thought O'Brien played as well as any great fetching openside.

miaow wrote:I wouldn't have Tuilagi in the first team squad. Good midweek option, but for me, not developed enough yet to play the really, high quality test matches (I know this might sound crazy in that he's one of England's best players at the moment, but I'm massively hungover, and it's difficult to try and express what in my head sounds right).

I think it's fair to say that in two years time the rugby world will be very different, and positions we feel weak at the moment might be strong, and vice versa. Look at Wales with the back row; for years there was no one at 7 other than Martyn Williams. Now there is the world class Warburton, the potentially close to that standard Turnbull (will almost certainly suffer due to lack of gametime), and the exciting Tipuric. All came through in the last two years.

I feel the same about North as you do about Tuilagi. But they will probably both end up becoming massive players for their country, and will no doubt start in the next Lions tour.

Hmm, I'd say North has actually got more of a proven record than Tuilagi, and has performed and scored consistently against all teams regardless of quality. Not sure Tuilagi has the same pedigree; a warm up against Wales, a dire Irish side, and then Georgia and he didn't do much against Argentina.

I'd say a closer comparison would be North and Ashton, not least because they'd probably be in competition with one another; they're both relatively new to international rugby, score a lot of tries, have a few fundamental weaknesses, but these are often negated by what they bring to the team. With a more rounded player like Bowe likely to start, I'd say these two would fight for the #11 shirt.

I think Robshaw could be world class. He just hasn't been given the chance on the international stage.

He's the best tackler in the Aviva Premiership. He's a powerful ball carrier, with an epic work-rate. He can offload in the tackle. He dominates the breakdown, he's a leader and is arguably the most consistent performer week in week out in the world of Rugby!

Moody should never have gone to the world cup, not due to his injury - due to the fact Robshaw should have been selected ahead of him.

miaow wrote:Hmm, I'd say North has actually got more of a proven record than Tuilagi, and has performed and scored consistently against all teams regardless of quality. Not sure Tuilagi has the same pedigree; a warm up against Wales, a dire Irish side, and then Georgia and he didn't do much against Argentina.

But those are the only games Manu has played, 3 tries in 4 games ain't bad. North has hardly set the world cup alight.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Unfortunately we won't know what impact Pocock would or wouldn't have had. Maybe he still would have struggled against such an aggressive and hard working irish pack? Maybe O'Brien would still have had one of his best ever games at 7 and even outplayed him? I thought O'Brien played as well as any great fetching openside.

Pocock is just on another level to be honest.The great Richie mccaw struggles against David Pocock

But unlike McCaw, Pocock is really just a scavenging specialist and that's it. You barely see him in other areas of play. He has such a big impact because he's so good at the role he plays on the ground. But we don't know what impact he would have had with the tackled Australian players unable to fall on the ground.

Would he have turned their scrum into a dominant one or made the hooker throw straight? Or prevented the Irish from knocking back Australian players in the collisions?

Not true. He carries well.

15-9 Foden, North, Tuilagi, Henson, Trimble, Sexton, Care
1-8 James, Best, Jacobsen, Grey, AWJ, Ferris, Warburton, SOB.

Does anyone think Wee Max Evans is worth a place next lions tour ? Given the right servis from the HBs he is a most elusive runner.

miaow wrote:
Eh!? Did you not see the impact Pocock's absence had on Australia against Ireland!?!

I didn't realise Pocock played in the front row?