Bye bye Scotland?

Sadly, I think so.

Argentina just have too much weight and power and if lacking everything else in the backs, they have an organised defence.
Can't see any soltaires waving at full-time.

Possibly they could beat England on passion - and especially if it's raining. They do well in inclement weather.

I actually think the rain hampered Scotland in their last match against Georgia.

Regardless, I think this will be a close match.

C'mon Scotland!

It is looking that way Portnoy. So far they've looked the weaker of the 3 tier 1 sides in that pool.

That said England have been pretty poor and Argentina struggled to score points against England and they are very reliant on Contepomi so these last two games for Scotland could still go either way.

If Scotland go into the England game with their backs to the wall then that will be some game. Remember Scotland gave England all sorts of trouble at the breakdown in the 6N and could have won that game.

Come on Scotland!

I think Argentina will beat Scotland and Scotland will beat England - Where will that leave the pool and who goes through?

roddersm Scotland lost though. They were plucky in defeat but no more.

Don't forget Argentina might still have been a bit rusty against England as they don't play often together. Their demolition of Romania shows they are no pushovers.

This match between Scotland and Argentina will be a very tight affair. Argentina will be slight favourites on form.

Scotland's biggest weapon is rain. After that it's the backrow. The breakdown battle and the kicking contest will decide the match in my opinion.

The Argentinian kicker missed 5 vs England.

Scotland need to put in a good performance because after Argentina their toughest match is to come.

England have in most people's eyes been poor but dispatched Argentina and saw off Georgia comfortably in the end.

Scotland will need to up their game.

Rubyguby I can only see Scotland beating England if it rains.

Argentina team to face Scotland:

M Rodriguez, G Camacho, M Bosch, F Contepomi (capt), H Agulla, S Fernandez, N Vergallo; R Roncero, M Ledesma, J Figallo, M Carizza, P Albacete, J Farias Cabello, JM Leguizamon, JM Fernandez Lobbe.

Replacements: A Creevy, M Scelzo, M Galarza, G Fessia, A Lalanne, L Gonzalez Amorosino, J Imhoff.

Contepomi is back and so Scotland will need to be wary as he can create something from nothing on his day. Can't believe no Marcos Ayerza!

"Argentina just have too much weight and power"

Didnt they say that about Georgia...and Scotland bettered them in the pack.

Its Scotlands backs that need a kick up the backside.... creativity = Nil.

I still think Scotland will win...but ultimately we will beat scotland.

roddersm wrote:It is looking that way Portnoy. So far they've looked the weaker of the 3 tier 1 sides in that pool.

That said England have been pretty poor and Argentina struggled to score points against England and they are very reliant on Contepomi so these last two games for Scotland could still go either way.

If Scotland go into the England game with their backs to the wall then that will be some game. Remember Scotland gave England all sorts of trouble at the breakdown in the 6N and could have won that game.

Come on Scotland!

I have bleak memories of the picto-sasenach 6Ns encounter.

But there again I know how disappointing Scotland can be. And that means that coming off the two away wins in Argentina last summer I can't see them making a habit of it.

The England game is their final match is their best bet - especially if England have already qualified.

Depends on the quarters they are scrapping for...

"The breakdown battle and the kicking contest will decide the match in my opinion."

Doesnt that dictate most games these days...

Portnoy wrote:Sadly, I think so.

Argentina just have too much weight and power and if lacking everything else in the backs, they have an organised defence.
Can't see any soltaires waving at full-time.

Possibly they could beat England on passion - and especially if it's raining. They do well in inclement weather.

If you had watched they last match then you would have noticed the Pumas played an expansive and fast flowing game, also if you watch rugby in general you would realise the Argentinian strength is now more and more back driven, their forwards are certainly not so dominant these days.

But 1 / 10 for the WUM effort

roddersm wrote:

Come on Scotland!

By the way - Come on Scotland!

beshocked wrote:roddersm Scotland lost though. They were plucky in defeat but no more.

Don't forget Argentina might still have been a bit rusty against England as they don't play often together. Their demolition of Romania shows they are no pushovers.

This match between Scotland and Argentina will be a very tight affair. Argentina will be slight favourites on form.

Scotland's biggest weapon is rain. After that it's the backrow. The breakdown battle and the kicking contest will decide the match in my opinion.

The Argentinian kicker missed 5 vs England.

Scotland need to put in a good performance because after Argentina their toughest match is to come.

England have in most people's eyes been poor but dispatched Argentina and saw off Georgia comfortably in the end.

Scotland will need to up their game.

Rubyguby I can only see Scotland beating England if it rains.

Beshoked
You seem to think that on a bright day that England have the better athletes and natural runners, I would pit the Lamonts, Jackson, Ansbro or Evans against the current England backs and be quite confident.

We have a decent winning streak even though we playing pretty average, I think we will scrape past Argentina and with that out of the way, I honestly can't see a problem with England if we play like we did the last time against you

So what happens if they are all tied on points answer me you feckers!!!!!!

I agree. Its a very poor Scottish team and I see them going home early.

Shame that. I hope they win. But I cant see it, because they cant score tries.

flyhalffactory wrote:

But 1 / 10 for the WUM effort

If you want to think that I'm wumming then I can't stop you.

I just speak my mind openly. But it's not always popular.
Which doesn't matter as popularity is not a thing I seek - just debate.

Boyne wrote:I agree. Its a very poor Scottish team and I see them going home early.

Shame that. I hope they win. But I cant see it, because they cant score tries.

Ireland could not score tries against Australia........still won though didn't they?

I'd like to see Scotland win so we can knock them down in the last pool game.

C'mon u Jocks

The problem with the 6N game was - barring one small piece of brilliance from Evans aside - for all the puff and thunder and spoiling that Scotland produced they never ever looked like scoring. The win was always unlikely.

England can score, and on the odd occasion they actually string a few passes together without dropping the ball can look very dangerous.

Of course Scotland can beat England but its going to demand a terrific performace

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Boyne wrote:I agree. Its a very poor Scottish team and I see them going home early.

Shame that. I hope they win. But I cant see it, because they cant score tries.

Ireland could not score tries against Australia........still won though didn't they?

they did, but your comparing one ireland game to scotlands many (tryless games)

Considering they've won all their games, it won't be soon. But this is when the real tests begin for them; they've looked pretty poor up to now, and have to hope they had a lot left in the changing rooms during the games with Romania (especially) and Georgia.

They don't score tries often or easily, but neither do Wales, though Wales are better in most other facets than Scotland. I've said for a while I think Argentina would make it through at Scotland's defence, let's just wait and see. One thing for certain, unless Argentina are winning going into the last quarter, they'll start to get dirty and give away penalties/yellow cards. The mentality has to be one of getting a lead and maintaining it so they frustrate them. But to do that, or do that more effectively, they need to score tries...


Really, I'm not sure why they don't score more. Sean Lamont, Max Evans and Danielli should be able to create and finish something with decent ball; is it an issue with quick ball then, the pack not big enough to outmuscle teams who slow it down (good luck with that against Arg)? One thing's for certain, Ansboro has been a breath of fresh air, and may well get you out of another sticky situation at the weekend.

miaow wrote:Ansboro has been a breath of fresh air, and may well get you out of another sticky situation at the weekend.

Ansbro isnt even in the 22 so it will be difficult

I'm tipping the Jock's to top their group They are playing the right kind of rugby to beat both Argentina and England.

nathan wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Boyne wrote:I agree. Its a very poor Scottish team and I see them going home early.

Shame that. I hope they win. But I cant see it, because they cant score tries.

Ireland could not score tries against Australia........still won though didn't they?

they did, but your comparing one ireland game to scotlands many (tryless games)

I feel the need to point out though, Scotland have taken some huge scalps without scoring tries over the last few years, France, England, Australia, South Africa and Argentina. Scoring tries is not the be all and end all. Further more we Scored the same ammount of tries in the 6N as Wales (and one of theirs didn't really count ). In our warm ups and first few RWC matches we have scored 7 tries in 4 games, 1 against Ireland, 2 against Italy, 4 against Romania. I would not really say we can't score tries tbh.

Miaow - Re Ansbro, he is not playing at the weekend. Robinson has to take credit for picking the player in form Nick De Luca who was instrumental in practically all the things Scotland has done well in the backline over the last few games. His passing is what has been giving the likes of Evans (England) , Ansbro (Ireland), Lamont (France) and Walker (Italy) into the spaces to score these tries.

He also looked very Strong in defence against Georgia and on the rare occasions he got the ball he looked dangerous. Ideally I would have started with Ansbro and De Luca at 12 & 13 but I think AR has gone for the more solid defencive options.

Shocking, really? Why? Is he injured? If that's a selection call, I hope Scotland trundle into another defeat with NdL and Morrison, the epitome of average rugby players both of them.

As pointed out, Argentina miss kicks. That's probably Scotland's best opportunity; if Argentina mix the flair from the last game, and the grunt from the England game, they will almost certainly win.

miaow wrote:
Really, I'm not sure why they don't score more. Sean Lamont, Max Evans and Danielli should be able to create and finish something with decent ball;

I think it's a problem at half back. They have loads of strike runners out wide and big ball carriers in the forwards. Parks in particular certainly sit's too deep in the pocket to launch any type of meaningful attack and the scrum halves mustn't be supplying quick enough ball. Sorry I haven't watched Scotland much since the 6N, it's too boring

I'm backing big Danielli for the hatrick!

That is very true. With Jackson playing, I completely forgot about the boot that is Dan Park distributing the ball. Just look at what he has done to the Blues, a creative, attacking team, and it's clear how NZ would probably struggle with Scotland's 'Dan the Man' at first receiver.

I think the SHs are alright.

What evidence do you have to back up your asumptions,last time I looked
the only reason England are top of the table is on points difference.
Scotland have two fairly recent wins over Argentina ,England in a closed
stadium struggled to put Argentina away.
Georgia without the 4 day turnaround would have run them close.
IF Scotland beat Argentina and on evidence,so far it`s no better than a 50-50 bet who wins.
Either side winning or gaining a bonus losing point,IF Scotland then beat England iit could mean good bye England.

Doze of reality time: despite Scotland's double tour win in Argentina 15 months ago and despite a (one place) higher IRB ranking, Argentina have shown better form thus far in the RWC and hence Scotland go into this game as underdogs. Our backline ran in a hatfull of tries against a hapless Romania, while our pack struggled with the strength of theirs; against the much vaunted Georgian pack, ours gained the upper hand, but our backline didn't threaten the white wash. Argentina looked off-key in their warm-up game against Wales, but then surprised most by pushing England close in the opening game of the pool and then demolished Romania with a free-scoring display from their underestimated backline.

BELIEVE

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Doze of reality time

A bit like watching Scotland...

Good post though, nice and unbiased.

miaow wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Doze of reality time

A bit like watching Scotland...

Good post though, nice and unbiased.

miaow, those are the facts as I see them, but my aspirations would be quite different!

Absolutely. I'd be disappointed if all Scottish rugby supporters didn't asipre to winning the WC. I'd be suprised if they actually analysed it so they thought it likely...

RubyGuby wrote:So what happens if they are all tied on points answer me you feckers!!!!!!

Comes down to points difference I think.

If Scotland lose on Sunday and beat England, I still think Scotland would be knocked out. England will get a bonus point against Romania and most likely a losing bonus against Scotland (were Scotland to win), so that would put them on more points than Scotland (unless we somehow lose by less than 7 to Argentina and score more than 4 tries against both Argentina and England.......unlikely). Argentina, having beaten us would likely then go on to beat Georgia, and assuming they get a bonus win in one of those games, they would likely top us on either bonus points or certainly on points difference.

Sunday is a knock-out game, in all but name.

Argentina should be slight favourties on form, but we have the capabilities to beat them. I don't think we want rain though, contrary to some thoughts on here, I think we want it cold and dry. Our tactics should be to move the ball and keep the Argentina forwards on the move. As we saw against Georgia, our handling skills aren't up to dealing with a wet ball.

FES any comment on your shout that uncontested scrums would "suit Ireland down to the ground" against Australia after we completely annihilated their front row in the scrum and pretty much won the match through it?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

miaow wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Doze of reality time

A bit like watching Scotland...

Good post though, nice and unbiased.

miaow, those are the facts as I see them, but my aspirations would be quite different!

As, apart from being shocked by the lack of your signature ,

Do you really think that Scotland can brave it out?

I see them reduced to an occasional side on apar woth Italy and Argentina.

And therefore only ever good enough to
a. make the quarters
and
b. beat England

Portnoy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

miaow wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Doze of reality time

A bit like watching Scotland...

Good post though, nice and unbiased.

miaow, those are the facts as I see them, but my aspirations would be quite different!

As, apart from being shocked by the lack of your signature ,

Do you really think that Scotland can brave it out?

I see them reduced to an occasional side on apar woth Italy and Argentina.

And therefore only ever good enough to
a. make the quarters
and
b. beat England

Ah, Portnoy, variety is the spice of life'n'all that! (or else senility has set in more than I realised!)

Yes, I do think Scotland can brave it out - this is a knock out game for Scotland as much as it is for Arg, a loss for either effectively ending the tournament (a Scottish loss vs Arg and a win over England would require too many other things to fall favourably). We are due a big 'together' performance from Scotland, and a number of players will have the knowledge that we could (should?) have beaten Arg in the quarters in 2007 (if we'd opened up the game and played like we did in the last 20 mins, it would have been over by half-time - ifs & buts, woulda, shoulda, coulda!!) and broke a significant hoodoo that they had over us in head-to-head matches with the summer 2010 double win in Argentina.

I don't see us as a reduced side - I believe that we've hit our nadir and are on an upward trajectory - the raft of talent coming thru at U18, U20, U21 is really encouraging, particularly in the backline. I'm hoping that we've now got the organisational side of things straight, the appropriate structures in place, and that the game will start to grow again north of the border.

We may only ever make RRWC quarter finals, but having made it there every single time is a decent record for a country with our playing population. As for raising our game only against England, I think that's a bit of ancient history now - the players are professionals and need to be aiming for consistency of performance.

(happy now? )

Artful_Dodger wrote:FES any comment on your shout that uncontested scrums would "suit Ireland down to the ground" against Australia after we completely annihilated their front row in the scrum and pretty much won the match through it?

I should have said "uncontested scrums OR a referee that didn't know what he was doing".......

Only joking......I was wrong about the Irish scrum, Ross, Best and Healy were all superb and deserve the plaudits. Having seen them play together this year I must say I was slightly surprised, and had Australia had the two Benns and Moore I think it would have been less decisive, but there's no arguing with the fact that the Irish front row nailed their Aussie counterparts.

It'll be interesting to see if they can repeat that trick against Italy.

Fair play, not so sure we will repeat it against Italy, I would be happy with parity against the likes of Castrogiovanni and Perugini.

flyhalffactory wrote:

beshocked wrote:roddersm Scotland lost though. They were plucky in defeat but no more.

Don't forget Argentina might still have been a bit rusty against England as they don't play often together. Their demolition of Romania shows they are no pushovers.

This match between Scotland and Argentina will be a very tight affair. Argentina will be slight favourites on form.

Scotland's biggest weapon is rain. After that it's the backrow. The breakdown battle and the kicking contest will decide the match in my opinion.

The Argentinian kicker missed 5 vs England.

Scotland need to put in a good performance because after Argentina their toughest match is to come.

England have in most people's eyes been poor but dispatched Argentina and saw off Georgia comfortably in the end.

Scotland will need to up their game.

Rubyguby I can only see Scotland beating England if it rains.

Beshoked
You seem to think that on a bright day that England have the better athletes and natural runners, I would pit the Lamonts, Jackson, Ansbro or Evans against the current England backs and be quite confident.

We have a decent winning streak even though we playing pretty average, I think we will scrape past Argentina and with that out of the way, I honestly can't see a problem with England if we play like we did the last time against you

England do have the better athletes and natural runners. You only have to look at the try stats over the years in the 6 nations.

Scotland struggle to score tries. The poor Scottish backs isn't myth. It is fact.

Even if you take just the two world cup games England have scored more tries than Scotland. 7 to 4. England have not yet played Romania and Scotland have not yet played Argentina. Scotland have conceded 2 tries to England's 1.

beshocked, in fairness, stats like those depend on things like how much possession a team has, the quality of the half backs to deliver it to the outside backs, etc. - difficult to draw too many conclusions from your numbers imo

beshocked wrote:
England do have the better athletes and natural runners. You only have to look at the try stats over the years in the 6 nations.

True Beshocked but thats because they're all Samoans or Kiwis .... unless you are referring to Nick Easter that is....

Hape is about as athletic as a slug.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I don't see us as a reduced side - I believe that we've hit our nadir and are on an upward trajectory - the raft of talent coming thru at U18, U20, U21 is really encouraging, particularly in the backline. I'm hoping that we've now got the organisational side of things straight, the appropriate structures in place, and that the game will start to grow again north of the border.

)

Unfortunately every side from Exeter (who are exceptional in the age-groups) through 'Monglia' to Scotland all have exceptional sides coming through.

The only thing about potential is self-explanatory.

miaow wrote:Hape is about as athletic as a slug.

When Jonny Wilkinson is winning all your sprint tests then you know you have problems....

Scotland is a home nations team. Of course I'll be supporting them, and of course they can win! Key will be quick ball though, not sure if Scottish backrow can compete with Argentina's.

Do I think we can win - yes
Do I think we can lose - yes
Do I think we can draw - yes

Will I be supporting the team and watching it with a huge hangover - yes
Will I scream at the TV and scare the GF when we drop a ball and do a silly move that stops our 'flowing' play - yes

Is it too early to say bye bye to Scotland - yes

Can we still win the group - yes


All to play for imo - we are not favouriates but all comes down to the day - come on Scotland

Even if Scotland lose (and I hope they win but dont see it happening) they will have the chance against England to send the english into a 1/4 final with NZ instead of France. Now I know you Scots don't even want to think about that but I get the impression if it were to happen that you would gain a significant amount of vicarious pleasure from it

RubyGuby wrote:Even if Scotland lose (and I hope they win but dont see it happening) they will have the chance against England to send the english into a 1/4 final with NZ instead of France. Now I know you Scots don't even want to think about that but I get the impression if it were to happen that you would gain a significant amount of vicarious pleasure from it

Actually that would not really be any consilation - certainly for me it is a myth that I would prefer anyone but England to win. I hope taht us Scots have grwon up by now - cos all it does it makes us look very silly

Like I said, I'm sure many don't even want to think about that but I would put my house on it that it will be the truth for the vast majority:thumbsup:

roddersm I was referring more to backline players but Nick Easter has shown against certain opposition he knows where the try line is. The first no 8 to score 4 tries in one match for England.

Aslongas do you honestly think Scotland has a dangerous backline?

Scotland's best wins have been with no tries involved. Built on strong defence.

Hape still managed two tries against Georgia despite being compared to a slug. What does that say about the Scottish backs?

My main point is that Scotland should not try and outscore the opposition in the try department as it is a grievous weakness.

Praying for rain, a good backrow performance and kicking to glory are Scotland's best chance against Argentina and England.

beshocked wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

beshocked wrote:roddersm Scotland lost though. They were plucky in defeat but no more.

Don't forget Argentina might still have been a bit rusty against England as they don't play often together. Their demolition of Romania shows they are no pushovers.

This match between Scotland and Argentina will be a very tight affair. Argentina will be slight favourites on form.

Scotland's biggest weapon is rain. After that it's the backrow. The breakdown battle and the kicking contest will decide the match in my opinion.

The Argentinian kicker missed 5 vs England.

Scotland need to put in a good performance because after Argentina their toughest match is to come.

England have in most people's eyes been poor but dispatched Argentina and saw off Georgia comfortably in the end.

Scotland will need to up their game.

Rubyguby I can only see Scotland beating England if it rains.

Beshoked
You seem to think that on a bright day that England have the better athletes and natural runners, I would pit the Lamonts, Jackson, Ansbro or Evans against the current England backs and be quite confident.

We have a decent winning streak even though we playing pretty average, I think we will scrape past Argentina and with that out of the way, I honestly can't see a problem with England if we play like we did the last time against you

England do have the better athletes and natural runners. You only have to look at the try stats over the years in the 6 nations.

Scotland struggle to score tries. The poor Scottish backs isn't myth. It is fact.

Even if you take just the two world cup games England have scored more tries than Scotland. 7 to 4. England have not yet played Romania and Scotland have not yet played Argentina. Scotland have conceded 2 tries to England's 1.

Well how about a little side wager
I'll take Jackson to manipulate our backs ................ we Scotland have always approached matches driven by our forward dominance, now with Jackson we can start using our decent back line.

I would say we are more concerned with the threat of the Pumas than England, we have already proved we can more than outplay them over 80 mins, we just need a playmaker at 10. If we manage to take the win against Argentina we should be able to take England if both teams are on form.