Why is no-one complaining about Manny-Marquez?

2 years ago Floyd came out of retirement to beat the 2nd or 3rd (can't fully remember) ranked p4p fighter, dominated and didn't receive credit. Many claimed Marquez was over the hill.

Now Manny is fighting him and people seemed to have accepted it.

Should Manny win will/should he be credited?

Not heard any one say they think this is a good fight except form Top Rank.

Only one person I can think of has been making any kind of positive noises about this fight. Everyone else has been criticising this since the Mosley fight was made. Arum said Mosley was the best option then, and now he's saying this'll be a 'classic fight'. Not so classic he couldn't make a bit of money out of Mosley first though, eh?

Apologies... I didn't know this fight was discussed before.

Yeah, the general feeling has been that for Marquez III to have been valid Pacquiao should have taken it some time ago. Admittedly, he took the bigger money options and that can't be held against him, but to try and sell this fight now...a lot of people feel it's another example of Team Pacquiao selecting opponents very carefully, and they'd be right.

I think that Marquez might still have enough smarts to take Manny the full 12 rounds but I can't see him winning.

too old at too high a weight for it to be really competetive, manny is farcical this fight is farcical the man has been let down after let down since the cotto fight which was two years ago! clottey, marg, mosley. two were miles past it and one was a never was now marquez with another ridiculous catchweight? hate to sound like a floyd fanboy but please tell me which ones worse proving to not be on any form of PEDS making sure both fighters are clean or forcing weight stipulations on opponents so they cant perform to the best of there abilities? i know which one i thinks worse. does he go prove hes pound for pound number one when his opponents are either nobodies or are miles past it with catchweights he should at the very least be fighting on even ground in terms of weight. really begun to dislike him.

Alex, Marquez doesn't HAVE to come in at the full weight of 144, he's just at a disadvantage if he doesn't, he'll probably be at a disadvantage if he does. I said before; Pacquiao's the phenomenon who's too small for welter, too big for light welter, yet apparently has to be force-fed to maintain his weight. Call me a cynic, but...

he does if he wants to fight manny. its bs he cant go up to welter or down to light welter. hes fought at light middle well not really at 150 which is bigger than 144. he could easily drop to 140 every man and his dog can see that but he knows hes putting marquez at a disadvantage thats why. hes an annoying bell nowadays.

As far as I'm aware Marquez can come in whatever weight he likes below 145, but you're right; there's no reason Pacquiao couldn't come down to 140. It's alright for him to ask everyone else to either gain weight or cut weight, but not the other way around.

BALTIMORA wrote:As far as I'm aware Marquez can come in whatever weight he likes below 145, but you're right; there's no reason Pacquiao couldn't come down to 140. It's alright for him to ask everyone else to either gain weight or cut weight, but not the other way around.

http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings

dont understand what your link is about scott...
sorry balti i should have made myself clearer i meant he probably needs to come in at 144 to stand a chance to match up with manny physically.

Scott the rankings are pointless if he can't beat a guy without some kind of stipulation. He could beat Wlad and Vitali if they came down to 145 too.

Alex I think it's a case of which will be less detrimental for JMM, coming in light or coming in slow.

he might try and meet them in the middle think thats his best bet. he has 3 options the way i see it and to be honest i struggle to see him winning either way in truth.
he can come in light try and use his speed and box off the back foot and make manny come to him and play it like a game of chess like barrera did second time around. this will allow him to survive but unlikely to pick up many rounds.
come in heavy fight fire with fire and have a right good go he will still have to rely on countering as manny is still too powerful to meet head on. could see him picking up a couple of rounds but get stopped midrounds.
try a mix its risky as theres a chance the power wont be there and you may be too heavy to be quick but you may also be quick enough with enough weight to mix it up physically aswell. but still its unlikely and will probably end up getting smacked.
one thing that we can guarentee though to be fair is that jmm will give it everything hes got the man is a true warrior and never gives up no matter what. even against floyd when the fight was lost he was still trying other things out to win rounds. he does have a style that manny struggles with and if he can get himself into position to apply it he could pose questionr and most importantly make manny think which i think is a key as to how to beat him.
all this being said marquez at times has struggled with the physicality at lightweight against a hardhitting guy who has been up to 150 and still had respectable power and hits hard enough to knock guys out at welter i dont fancy his chances matching up physically even at 140. though it gives him a much more legit chance.
not that ive thought much about this...

To be honest, despite Manny rightly being a huge favourite, JMM is a more valid fight than Mosley etc as he has, to my mind, still looked pretty impressive recently. The man is a great great fighter and I find it strange that he is being written off as some sort of no hoper. Pacquaio to win, but don't expect it to be a total panning, JMM still has the skill, timing, power and the main issue is whether he can retain any speed.

its a well worn argument but i struggle to think that a guy who won his first title at flyweight can be called too big for a guy of similar natural physicality who started at feather. I recall similar debates about Hatton having to go up to welter to fight fmj who had fought most of his career at a lower weight. A handy excuse for the defeat but that's what it was, an excuse.

Yes manny seems to have carried weight as well as any fighter in history but it's not like he has huge height and reach advantages. JMM gave manny fits stylistically. In fact, other than mayweather - who just does everything jmm does only better - marquez has given everyone trouble because he's a quality fighter.

I agree that the weight stipulations with manny fights are garbage, so i'm with you that it's unnecessary to pick 144, when that just happens to be the weight manny tends to come in at when fighting at welter... but you can see why they'd not want their guy to drop below his current fighting weight. It goes on easier than it comes off. I also agree that a third fight should have happened earlier given the contentious nature of the previous fights. However, at least you have a grudge match between 2 guys where you know they aren't struggling to make the weight.

As to the fight, I think it's entirely conceivable at this stage of their respective careers that manny might walk through him. However, I don't think that that scenario is a forgone conclusion. jmm hasn't been very active but he didn't look shot dismantling katsidis. Sure there are better fights out there for manny, but there are probably worse ones. Truth is, both manny and fmj will get bitched at whoever they fight until they fight each other.

As it goes I wasn't that critical of mayweather for taking the JMM fight at the time - but it was a rare occasion where i was 100% certain of the outcome. Many put it down to the weight... and sure jmm looked tubby at the weight... but fmj would beat him any time at any weight.

jay-z wrote:Apologies... I didn't know this fight was discussed before.

~Now, sir, no need for a young fella new to boxing fandom to apologize for not knowing the incredibly rich history between Mr. Manny and Mr. Marquez, but that's OK, I've no doubt you'll be swapping leather with the lads in no time.

Sir, first and foremost boxing is a risk/reward/prizefighting driven sport, the first professional of note and the richest in it's heyday, and it's even richer for the big stars today. This is a great trilogy on par with the Mr. Morales trilogy, and need I remind you of Mr. Marquez's P4P rankings, it bears repeating that no fighter in boxing history has faced more Ring ranked P4Pers than Mr. Manny.

Mr. Arum has been promoting Mr. Manny as beautifully as Mr. Freddie has fined tuned him, and now is the time for the final payday between the two. Regrettably, there is nobody else for Mr. Manny to face, but with Mr. Golden Boy having apologized to Mr. Arum and Mr. Manny for slandering them, there is the possibility of a renewal of a promotion that might rival Mr. Manny's previous wins over GB stars, Mr. Golden Boy and Mr. Hatton.

So there you have it, Mr. Marquez with his biggest payday ever, and Mr. Manny with another notch in his gun.

Tally Ho~Ho for now, and good luck........

This is a great trilogy on par with the Mr. Morales trilogy, and need I remind you of Mr. Marquez's P4P rankings, it bears repeating that no fighter in boxing history has faced more Ring ranked P4Pers than Mr. Manny.

Marquez was considered over the hill before their first fight.

Has Manny ever fought a decent fighter at the top of their game?

I'd say Hopkins has Manny in the P4P opposition stakes, on paper and definitely in reality.

Won't mention Barrera then, jukebox, bit of a daft comment. Marquez was an outstanding fighter at the time, and is still pretty handy now!

We the public were sold the Mosley fight on the basis that it was the best option out there; it would be the toughest, most exciting opponent Pacquiao could face and would make good money. We were told this in spite of Marquez having chased Pacquiao for years and across weight divisions. We're now being told that Marquez III will be a 'classic fight'-Bob Arum's own words. The public aren't all stupid enough to believe the man.

BALTIMORA wrote:Alex, Marquez doesn't HAVE to come in at the full weight of 144, he's just at a disadvantage if he doesn't, he'll probably be at a disadvantage if he does. I said before; Pacquiao's the phenomenon who's too small for welter, too big for light welter, yet apparently has to be force-fed to maintain his weight. Call me a cynic, but...

Exactly. One minute we're led to believe Manny has had six meals and a protein shake prior to weigh in at 138 against Hatton, the next he can't make 140lbs......

i can't see jmm been given a decision if its close, he needs a KO to win, which is very very unlikely. manny didnt perform that well against mosley and if he fights like that again jmm might have a chance, otherwise its pretty obvious who will win, jmm near lost to katdisis for gods sake

I would have said Pacquiao is now a better fighter than in their second fight, and Marquez, whilst not shot, has declined. So there should only be one outcome.

Fists of Fury wrote:Won't mention Barrera then, jukebox, bit of a daft comment. Marquez was an outstanding fighter at the time, and is still pretty handy now!

You think Barrera was at his peak?

Marquez was an outstanding fighter, but he wasn't considered so at the time. Why would he have been? Who'd he fought?

Manny Paquiao has had a very well managed career.

First time Manny fought him he was pretty much at his best. He had beaten Morales and Johnny Tapia the year before and beat Morales again after being beaten by Manny first time around, so yeah I think he was around his prime at that time.

Do you think Barrera and Morales were both at their peak for their third fight?

No but that was a bit after, he was just at the end of his prime when Manny caught him.

Bob wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:Alex, Marquez doesn't HAVE to come in at the full weight of 144, he's just at a disadvantage if he doesn't, he'll probably be at a disadvantage if he does. I said before; Pacquiao's the phenomenon who's too small for welter, too big for light welter, yet apparently has to be force-fed to maintain his weight. Call me a cynic, but...

Exactly. One minute we're led to believe Manny has had six meals and a protein shake prior to weigh in at 138 against Hatton, the next he can't make 140lbs......

his circumstances seem to change whoever he's fighting.
he could eat well on the day of weigh in and still make 140lbs.

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Won't mention Barrera then, jukebox, bit of a daft comment. Marquez was an outstanding fighter at the time, and is still pretty handy now!

You think Barrera was at his peak?

Marquez was an outstanding fighter, but he wasn't considered so at the time. Why would he have been? Who'd he fought?

Manny Paquiao has had a very well managed career.

Barrera was at the peak of his powers, having just dethroned Hamed and looking menacingly awesome in destructing a over-matched Sanchez, Pacquiao win over Barrera at the time is one of the astonishing performances of the noughties if not the greatest.

To claim Manny is just well managed is a little silly, the quicker people cut out this nonsense between Floyd and Manny the better, we'll never be happy with the chosen opponent of either man until they fight each other, You could say Ortiz is the most well managed picked fight by team Money. I guess you'll disagree.

There is not much size difference between the two men the biggest difference is Pacquiao had the better talnts and attributes to campaign higher and seek the bigger fights. Marquez bolis down to make Lightweight, Pacquiao barely bothers to cut weight for his fights at welter. On fight night there wont be more than a couple of pounds difference weight between the two going off past performances.

Outside of Mayweather, no matter who Pacquiao faces he will pretty much be slated. I think the fight will be one sided but that is down to Pacquiao being too good for Marquez as things are now.

Pacquiao could have made the fight easily enough a 140 but few fighters are going to give away advantages they dont have to and its unlikely to make much of a difference anyway.

manos de piedra wrote:There is not much size difference between the two men the biggest difference is Pacquiao had the better talnts and attributes to campaign higher and seek the bigger fights. Marquez bolis down to make Lightweight, Pacquiao barely bothers to cut weight for his fights at welter. On fight night there wont be more than a couple of pounds difference weight between the two going off past performances.

Outside of Mayweather, no matter who Pacquiao faces he will pretty much be slated. I think the fight will be one sided but that is down to Pacquiao being too good for Marquez as things are now.

Pacquiao could have made the fight easily enough a 140 but few fighters are going to give away advantages they dont have to and its unlikely to make much of a difference anyway.

Yep, and I'd add, people complain about there being too many weight divisions, but complain also when the P4P number one doesn't move down a division to fight someone who comes in at a similar size to him on fight night.

The Hamed fight was nearly 3 years earlier.

It was widely accepted that we'd seen the best days of Barrera and Morales at the time of their second fight. Don't forget that by 2003 Barrera was in his 9th year of world title fights. That's not saying he was shot, but he was clearly not at his best. This is a trait that's seen in nearly all of Pacquiao's opponents.

i am complaining,i think at 144 JMM can't really win. i think he gets ko'd and i am not happy about it

Scottrf wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:There is not much size difference between the two men the biggest difference is Pacquiao had the better talnts and attributes to campaign higher and seek the bigger fights. Marquez bolis down to make Lightweight, Pacquiao barely bothers to cut weight for his fights at welter. On fight night there wont be more than a couple of pounds difference weight between the two going off past performances.

Outside of Mayweather, no matter who Pacquiao faces he will pretty much be slated. I think the fight will be one sided but that is down to Pacquiao being too good for Marquez as things are now.

Pacquiao could have made the fight easily enough a 140 but few fighters are going to give away advantages they dont have to and its unlikely to make much of a difference anyway.

Yep, and I'd add, people complain about there being too many weight divisions, but complain also when the P4P number one doesn't move down a division to fight someone who comes in at a similar size to him on fight night.

What was wrong then with taking Cotto and Margarito at 147 and 154 respectively?

BALTIMORA wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:There is not much size difference between the two men the biggest difference is Pacquiao had the better talnts and attributes to campaign higher and seek the bigger fights. Marquez bolis down to make Lightweight, Pacquiao barely bothers to cut weight for his fights at welter. On fight night there wont be more than a couple of pounds difference weight between the two going off past performances.

Outside of Mayweather, no matter who Pacquiao faces he will pretty much be slated. I think the fight will be one sided but that is down to Pacquiao being too good for Marquez as things are now.

Pacquiao could have made the fight easily enough a 140 but few fighters are going to give away advantages they dont have to and its unlikely to make much of a difference anyway.

Yep, and I'd add, people complain about there being too many weight divisions, but complain also when the P4P number one doesn't move down a division to fight someone who comes in at a similar size to him on fight night.

What was wrong then with taking Cotto and Margarito at 147 and 154 respectively?

Nothing.

So why the catchweights? All these arguments cut both ways.

Also I dont think Pacquiaos career below lightweight can be questioned whatsoever. Its a massive myth that he was selective in his fights at the lower weights. Can see how his work at lightweight and above can be scrutinised as opportunistic timing but below that not at all for me. Barrera was a top 3 pound for pound fighter when Pacquaio faced him the first time, Morales was the number 8 pound for pound fighter and had lost a razor thin decision to Barrera so they were most definately not considered shot. Even when they began to slide somewhat there were few more credible fights out there at those weights if you include Marquez, who Pacquiao fought twice.

Sorry jukebox but Pacquaio's win over Barrera shocked the boxing world, and nobody can tell me that wasn't a peak Barrera. As someone mentioned earlier, that was one of, if not THE win of the decade.

BALTIMORA wrote:So why the catchweights? All these arguments cut both ways.

What argument? Margarito had a massive weight advantage, he benefited from Pacquiao moving up from 147. The Marquez fight is the same fight at 140, they will be the same size in the ring whether it's at 140, 144, 147 or 168.

Scottrf wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:So why the catchweights? All these arguments cut both ways.

What argument? Margarito had a massive weight advantage, he benefited from Pacquiao moving up from 147. The Marquez fight is the same fight at 140, they will be the same size in the ring whether it's at 140, 144, 147 or 168.

They weighed in at the same weight division. Cotto was around the same weight. If it's only a few pounds, why the stipulations? He can't have things both ways. If a catchweight doesn't make a difference, then there's no need to have it. Which one is it-are they necessary or not?

Déjà vu

Well, yeah, but it's a valid criticism and one which a lot of people are realising undermines his status at higher weights. If they're both gonna weigh the same come fight night, why not fight at 135 or 140? Forget about the belt, because we all know that Marquez would take the fight regardless of that. If there's no difference and no advantage to be had from a limit of 144, WHY NOT HAVE THE FIGHT AT A LOWER WEIGHT? Pacquiao could still make those lower weights, especially 140.

Why do boxers ask to come into the ring second if it's not an advantage?

He doesn't do it because he's the draw, he has an ego and he wont be dictated by someone else, and it's silly to think he will.

Scottrf wrote:Why do boxers ask to come into the ring second if it's not an advantage?

He doesn't do it because he's the draw, he has an ego and he wont be dictated by someone else, and it's silly to think he will.

That's fine, but it's ridiculous to tell people one thing when you're clinging to the opposite of that. The order in which fighters enter the ring has no physical bearing though, whereas weight does.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:So why the catchweights? All these arguments cut both ways.

What argument? Margarito had a massive weight advantage, he benefited from Pacquiao moving up from 147. The Marquez fight is the same fight at 140, they will be the same size in the ring whether it's at 140, 144, 147 or 168.

They weighed in at the same weight division. Cotto was around the same weight. If it's only a few pounds, why the stipulations? He can't have things both ways. If a catchweight doesn't make a difference, then there's no need to have it. Which one is it-are they necessary or not?

It saves Pacquiao the bother of having to sweat off a bit of weight or dehydrate down to 140 before replenishing back up to his usual 144lb fighting weight.

It does the same for Marquez. Marquez has been campaigning a lightweight where he has normally has to dehydrate down to 135lb to make the weigt and then rehydrate up to the 140ish mark come fight night. Now he wont have to do this. He can simply avoid the dehydrating part and come in whatever weight below 144 suits him.

Pacquiao wont weight above 144 (which he rarely does anyway at welter) and on fight night Marquez weighs circa 140lbs even when hes fighting at lightweight. So in reality all Marquez has to do is put on a pound or two of muscle and forgoe dehydrating himself and he will weigh in or around the same as Pacquiao. The difference the catchweight makes in this particular fight is limited as both of the guys are similarly sized and weigh similar amounts on fight night whether the fight is at lightweight, light welterweight or welterweight.

why has manny delayed each rematch for so long?after each fight his next fight should have been against marquez considering they were so close.but the gap inbetween each rematch has been 2-3 years.

supremeboxingskills wrote:why has manny delayed each rematch for so long?after each fight his next fight should have been against marquez considering they were so close.but the gap inbetween each rematch has been 2-3 years.

Because they were so close. I believe after the second fight he said that he was done with fighting Marquez, that that business was finished. Clearly he meant to add 'until such time as Marquez is almost forty'.

Probably because gruelling fights like that can cut short your career considerably. Don't want to be involved in 3 of those in a row, it'll take years off you.

Think this one is happening now because a) Marquez has kept chasing it and b) there are no real options other than FMJ.

Fists of Fury wrote:Probably because gruelling fights like that can cut short your career considerably. Don't want to be involved in 3 of those in a row, it'll take years off you.

Think this one is happening now because a) Marquez has kept chasing it and b) there are no real options other than FMJ.

They wouldn't have been three in a row, although yes, they'd have been in fairly close proximity. However close together, the situation would have been the same for Marquez, which begs the question why was he the only one wanting the third fight? I know people will say because he's the one who lost, but it was far from definitive.

the hateboys are getting a bit tiresome for me. There is some serious revisionist history going on here.

There's more money fighting established stars, and of course they're often getting on a bit because its their successful longevity that's made them names. Fight an unbeaten up and comer and you get slated for taking on an unproved nobody. Or as mayweather has just done, a young fresh, chinny nobody.

Since the last fight with jmm, pacquiao's fought diaz (1 defeat) for the lightweight belt, de la hoya, (aging but who, unless my memory fails me, was clear favourite for the fight), hatton (1 defeat to mayweather), cotto (1 defeat against a guy with plaster in his gloves), Clottey (3 defeats: 1 dq he was winning, 1 he got injured in, and 1 disputed split decision), marg (big super middle, considered a beast prior to shock defeat to mosley), mosley i'm not going to defend because he'd clearly seen better days. Now, with limited other options, he's back fighting the one guy that people think he didn't get the better of... but getting bitched about because he's now too old.

Yes, he got some of these at the right time, and yes the quality of opponent has tailed off a little, but really the only huge fight out there is fmj. Every management team picks opponents on a risk reward basis. But when you look at the guys manny has fought over the years at the range of weights its pitiful to pick him up on it.

Clearly manny should have stayed at super feather for ever and not fought any of the above... maybe he could have chased chris john for a fight in indonesia so he could beat the man who beat the man... that might have proved his worth...

But no, the cheating little scumbag has to go up another 4 weight divisions and beat up the aging glamour boys. Shocking career, brazenly skipping through the flyweight to super middle divisions. Manny Pacaquiao, an embarrassment to boxing. Don't know how i never saw this before.