Vote on your 10 greatest Test seamers

Next one up is the seamers, gents.

Remember, you need to submit your 10 picks in order of 1 to 10 please.

As suggested by a couple of you, we are only voting on seamers that have played since the war, though I wouldn't expect any from before then to have been included anyway. Players currently playing can be selected if you feel that they warrant a place.

Marshall
McGrath
Garner
Akram
Holding
Trueman
Walsh
Ambrose
Hadlee
Lillee

I am sure I have missed one or more people out, and I didn't want to include Steyn as he is still playing and can add to his legacy.

Marshall
McGrath
Ambrose
Akram
Hadlee
Lillee
Trueman
Holding
Waqar
Garner

1.Malcolm Marshall
2.Wasim Akram
3.Courtney Walsh
4.Glenn Mcgrath
5.Waqar Younis
6.Michael Holding
7.Richard Hadlee
8.Zaheer Khan
9.Fred Trueman
10.Dale Steyn

Cricketfan - surprised you didn't try to sneak David Masters in there!

Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Glenn McGrath
Wasim Akram
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Fred Trueman
Alan Donald
Richard Hadlee
Courtney Walsh

Zaheer Khan CF?

S.F. Barnes?

Marshall
Ambrose
Wasim
Garner
Holding
Mcgrath
Trueman
Hadlee
Waqar
Steyn

Hoggy_Bear wrote:S.F. Barnes?

I think it's post war?

Yes, the opening article states it's post war. Each to their own but I still think some bowlers of the 1950s and late 1940s deserve a shout. In particular, Ray Lindwall and Keith Miller.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Zaheer Khan CF?

quality bowler in all conditions, with new ball, old ball, and also look at his test record, home and away.

guildfordbat wrote:Yes, the opening article states it's post war. Each to their own but I still think some bowlers of the 1950s and late 1940s deserve a shout. In particular, Ray Lindwall and Keith Miller.

Steyn is better than both.He has got similar numbers but he has bowled to better batsmen,heavier bats and FAR FLATTER pitches.

cricketfan90 wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Zaheer Khan CF?

quality bowler in all conditions, with new ball, old ball, and also look at his test record, home and away.

Mate I think you have only looked at his record in the past 3 or 4 yrs which admittedly is exceptional but you told me the other day that you were considering overall record and Zaheer averages 32 with the ball in Test Cricket which is certainly not an average of an All Time Great.

But anyways your choice mate

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Yes, the opening article states it's post war. Each to their own but I still think some bowlers of the 1950s and late 1940s deserve a shout. In particular, Ray Lindwall and Keith Miller.

Steyn is better than both.He has got similar numbers but he has bowled to better batsmen,heavier bats and FAR FLATTER pitches.

Shanky - thanks for putting me right on that ....

guildfordbat wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Yes, the opening article states it's post war. Each to their own but I still think some bowlers of the 1950s and late 1940s deserve a shout. In particular, Ray Lindwall and Keith Miller.

Steyn is better than both.He has got similar numbers but he has bowled to better batsmen,heavier bats and FAR FLATTER pitches.

Shanky - thanks for putting me right on that ....

Was that a sarcastic comment mate?

Steyn though is perhaps in the middle of what could be a great or maybe just good career.
That's why he isn't in my top 10.

Stella wrote:Steyn though is perhaps in the middle of what could be a great or maybe just good career.
That's why he isn't in my top 10.

If he retired now then his figures would be similar to Lindwall but when you conisder the quality of batsman and flat pitches that Steyn has had to bowl on I think I would go for Steyn.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Stella wrote:Steyn though is perhaps in the middle of what could be a great or maybe just good career.
That's why he isn't in my top 10.

If he retired now then his figures would be similar to Lindwall but when you conisder the quality of batsman and flat pitches that Steyn has had to bowl on I think I would go for Steyn.

But he hasn't retired.

Stella wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Stella wrote:Steyn though is perhaps in the middle of what could be a great or maybe just good career.
That's why he isn't in my top 10.

If he retired now then his figures would be similar to Lindwall but when you conisder the quality of batsman and flat pitches that Steyn has had to bowl on I think I would go for Steyn.

But he hasn't retired.

But atm he is an All Time Great.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

But atm he is an All Time Great.

Shanky - you are either an All Time Great or you are not.

He is.

Guildford

Was your earlier comment sarcastic?

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:He is.

Guildford

Was your earlier comment sarcastic?

Good heavens, no ....

I find it very hard to include players still in the middle of their careers in any all-time great list. For people like Tendulkar now or Warne in his later years it is fine as we can reflect on their career overall, but someone like Steyn is probably only half-way through his career. He could go off the boil, he could get even better, and one can't have any kind of "look back". For that reason I leave him out, but will happily include him in 5 years time.

I shall give the names in the order in which they come into my head, and order them afterwards:
1) Wasim Akram
2) Holding
3) McGrath
6) Hadlee
5) Marshall
7) Lillee
4) Ambrose
8) Truemann
9) Imran Khan
10) Donald

Guys like Garner, Pollock, Procter, Lindwall and a few others are unlucky. Waqar Younis at his peak would be near top of the list, but not consistent enough over his career. Barnes would no doubt be in there if we weren't restricting to post-war.

I was sort of replying to the OPs assertion that no pre-war paceman would make the list when I said S.F. Barnes but, fair enough, post war I'd go with:

1) Marshall
2) Hadlee
3) Ambrose
4) McGrath
5) Wasim Akram
6) Garner
7) Trueman
8) Lindwall
9) Lillee
10) Bedser

Honourable mentions to Holding, Thompson, Davidson, Snow, Adcock, Pollock S., Roberts, Statham, Imran Khan, Waqar Younis, Kapil Dev, Fazal Mahmood and a number of others. I've deliberately left out players who are still playing, although I reckon only Steyn has a chance of making such a list at the moment

Hoggy - for a seamer (as opposed to a fast bowler), Bedser is a very good call to squeeze into the top ten.

Surprised that Holding misses out and only gets an honourable mention. I'm certainly not criticising you for that - as I wrote earlier on this thread, ''each to their own'' - but am interested as to why. Cheers, Guildford.

guildford
Just think the 10 in my list were better than Holding. That's not denigrating Holding, or any of the others for that matter, but 10 is quite a small number to choose, so some very good players are always going to miss out.

Hoggy - agreed and understood. I've got about 25 names at the moment to go into this top ten!

guildfordbat wrote:Hoggy - agreed and understood. I've got about 25 names at the moment to go into this top ten!

Who are the 25?Name them mate

Looks like Marshall may end up being at one.

I haven't seem Andy Roberts' name come up yet. Very good but great? Obviously not

Stella wrote:Looks like Marshall may end up being at one.

I haven't seem Andy Roberts' name come up yet. Very good but great? Obviously not

Is is so obvious?Andy would be in my top 20 and anyone who is in the top 25,I would call him a great.

I was just kidding, shanks.

Never saw him bowl but he was a hostile fellow by all accounts.

Shanky - Hoggy's top ten and twelve honourable mentions give you 22. For me, Procter, Tyson, Miller and Walsh can also go in the mix. Errh, make that at least 26 ....

Re: Andy Roberts.

Apologies if I'm a year or so out here but Andy Roberts really came to the attention of those watching County Championship cricket in around 1974 when his considerable pace helped him take a load of wickets for Hants. According to a press article then, he had debuted for Hants second eleven the season before. When he originally played for the seconds, his direction was said to be somewhat wayward resulting in him ''not getting that many wickets but several retired hurts!''.

Certainly a very fine Test match bowler but, for me, behind Holding, Marshall and Garner.

Didn't Roberts knock out Botham's teeth in Beefy's first match for Somerset?

Stella - yep, don't remember if it was Botham's debut but that certainly happened.

Stella
Don't think it was Both's debut (it's a while since I read Bothams autobiog, so my recollection may be off and it might have been his CC debut after some successful one day games), but was certainly in his first season for Somerset. He made the classic mistake against Roberts - AR bounced him and Both played a pull shot for four. Roberts bounced him again next ball, and Botham tried to repeat the shot only to realise that the second bouncer was an awful lot faster than the first one...

I'm surprised that Botham isn't getting more mentions as at least an honourable mention in the bowling stakes. Yes, in the later stages of his career he was a fat wobbly medium pacer, but before his back injury in the mid 80s, he was a high class fast medium seam bowler and was the leading test wicket taker (overtaking Lillee iirc).

One other consideration is that sometimes quick bowlers don't have a consistent and long career, but do produce very high levels of performance for a small number of years. How you then rate bowlers like Thompson or Tyson, who were virtually unplayable for only about 3 seasons against the likes of McGrath or Ambrose, who had long and consistent careers makes this sort of discussion difficult.

Anyway, I think most of the correct names have been mentioned, and so in no particular order:
Marshall
McGrath
Holding
Truman
Hadlee
Akram
Garner
Lillee
Imran
Thompson (for the time until his shoulder injury slowed him down)

Always thought that while Ambrose and Walsh were magnificent bowlers, they were not quite on the same level as the previous generation.

Obviously a lack of South Africans, but I don't think Steyn quite makes the list yet, and the likes of Proctor miss out more through a lack of opportunity than talent.

dummy_half wrote:
I'm surprised that Botham isn't getting more mentions as at least an honourable mention in the bowling stakes. Yes, in the later stages of his career he was a fat wobbly medium pacer, but before his back injury in the mid 80s, he was a high class fast medium seam bowler and was the leading test wicket taker (overtaking Lillee iirc).

One other consideration is that sometimes quick bowlers don't have a consistent and long career, but do produce very high levels of performance for a small number of years.

Dummy - very good post, several fine points.

Agree with you about Botham the bowler.

On the other part of your post I've quoted , Tyson fits that bill well. He'll therefore probably miss out on my top ten and will have to make do with an honourable mention. Another to miss out altogether is Bob Massie - probably the greatest seam bowler ever over the shortest period of time?

Ian Bishop is a bowler who could have made the top 20 at least but for his back injury.
He was very very rapid when England toured in 1990.

i dont think bishop fulfilled his full potential, most probably from injury.

I'll be totalling these tomorrow evening so anyone that still wishes to submit their top 10 please do so prior to then.

Thanks for the tip off, Fists.

My top ten:

1. Holding

2. McGrath

3. Lillee

4. Marshall

5. Garner

6. Hadlee

7. Trueman

8. Lindwall

9. Bedser

10. Botham

Many apologies to many fine bowlers not listed. I've tried to go for seam specialists as well as pure pacemen. That's my explanation for including Bedser and Botham although I've still surprised myself by omitting Ambrose and Procter!

Although not in my top ten, a belated and very honourable mention to Brett Lee. Always played the game the right way. Hard but with a smile.

We recently had another thread titled "10 greatest fast bowlers". Now, we have one about 10 greatest seamers. Will I see one about 10 greatest swingers?

In rank order:

1. Marshall
2. Holding
3. Ambrose
4. Trueman
5. Lindwall
6. Garner
7. Barnes
8. Lillee
9. Steyn
10. Hall

In no particular order (as of yet, will rank them later).

McGrath
Ambrose
Holding
Marshall
Garner
Wasim Akram
Trueman
Hadlee
Lindwall
Donald

As have done many others, have left out Steyn as he's only halfway through his career. Have just compared with what I put down as my top ten of all time in a previous post, and the only change is Donald in for Barnes (who would make the cut if we weren't talking post war only)

in order

1. Glenn McGrath
2. Wasim Akram
3. Michael Holding
4. Malcolm Marshall
5. Joel Garner
6. Fred Trueman
7. Richard Hadlee
8. Curtly Ambrose
9. Ray Lindwall
10. Alan Donald

The rest of the top 20 would include: Lillee, Botham, Willis, Bedser, Imran Khan, Walsh, Younis, Proctor Roberts, Kapil Dev. Well, something like that anyway (still talking post war obviously)

Did we reach a result with this one Fists?

Sorry mate been really busy lately, I will get the results written up tonight.