606v2 Greatest Test Wicket-Keepers Vote

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:36 am

Morning folks

Same format as usual, the 10 greatest Test wicket-keepers, in your opinion, since the war.

In order, of course.

Cheers

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:45 am

Keepers or keeper-batsmen?

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:47 am

Those which have had the biggest impact upon their team, so in all likelihood that will be keeper-batsmen.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:47 am

As an all-round package.

by Stella Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:50 am

I done some research yesterday and came up with a man called Jack Blackham.
He was apparently the greatest keeper of his era, which was of course before the war.

Headscratch

I will have to re-do my 10 Very Happy

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:53 am

Surely Adam Gilchrist would be top of the list, he changed the way keepers are now chosen.

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:55 am

Purely for keeping skills - Alan Knott who could also bat though.

by Stella Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:55 am

1. Adam Gilchrist
2. Godfrey Evans
3. Alan Knott
4. Andy Flower
5. Jeff Dujon
6. Wasim Bari
7. Syed Kirmani
8. Ian Healy
9. Mark Boucher
10. Rod Marsh

Ames and Blackham were in my original list as was Bob Taylor but he missed out due to lack of tests played.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 15 Nov 2011, 10:58 am

Off the top of my head, and in no particular order I'd go:

Godfrey Evans
Andy Flower
Adam Gilchrist
Mark Boucher
MS Dhoni
Alan Knott
Deryk Murray
Ian Healey
Rod Marsh
Matt Prior

buit's there's a lot of good players missing out, and I'll probably change my mind later.
One interesting thing is the number of modern players in that list. That may just be because I remember them better, but I do think that the 'keeper, and especially the 'keeper-batsman, has become far more an integral part of teams these days than in the past.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:00 am

Needs to be in order for this process, Hoggy.

Cheers

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:04 am

Fair enough Fists.
I'll go:
1) Alan Knott
2) Adam Gilchrist
3) Andy Flower
4) Ian Healey
5) MS Dhoni
6) Rod Marsh
7) Godfrey Evans
8) Mark Boucher
9) Matt Prior
10) Deryk Murray

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:05 am

Thanks, mate.

by Guest Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:07 am

1.Godfrey Evans
2.Andy Flower
3.Adam Gilchrist
4.Alec Stewart
5.Jeffrery Dujon
6.Mark Boucher
7.M.S.Dhoni
8.Rod Marsh
9.Matt Prior
10.Kumar Sangakarra

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:15 am

(1) Adam Gilchrist (Teams were terrified when he came to bat, very good keeper too)
(2) Alan Knott
(3) Donald Tallon
(4) Les Ames
(5) Derek Murray
(6) Rod Marsh
(7) Andy Flower
(8) Ian Healy
(9) Alec Stewart
(10) Jeffrey Dujon

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:18 am

Les Ames was pre-war (OP asks for post WWII), otherwise I'd definitely have had in in my top 10.

by **Biltong** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:22 am

Well here is my list.

1.Gillchrist
Batting Average 47.60
Centuries 17
Fifties 26
Catches 379
Stumpings 37
Dismissals per innings 2.178

Probably the quintessential wicket keeper batsman, he was a good gloveman, motivator and superb batsman in an era where Australia dominated the game. You could argue that Andy Flower or even Boucher would have also excelled in the company of McGrath, Warne etc.

But in my opinion the best yet.

2. Flower
Batting Average 51.54
Centuries 12
Fifties 27
Catches 151
Stumpings 9
Dismissals per innings 1.454

Looking at his glovework on statistics alone, you would think he wasn't very effective, until you consider the quality of bowling Zimbabwe have posessed over the years, in my mind only Heath Streak was really an international class bowler who had a good stint with Zimbabwe. His 1 not outs as a middle order batsman does enhance his average somewhat as Zimbabwe never really had the greatest batting line up and hence close to 20% of his innings had an asterisk behind it.

3.Boucher
Batting average 30.55.
Centuries 5
Fifties 34
Catches 502
Stumpings 22
Dismissals per innings 1.962

Having batted for the most part of his career anywhere from 7 up to 9, he was probably the player with the most unselfish behaviour when it came to batting. whether in an ODI or test, he would have little regard for his average and would bat depending on what the match dictated. His longevity as a gloveman alone puts him alongside one of the best glovemen to have played the game.

4.Dhoni
Batting average 37.69
Centuries 4
Fifties 23
catches 176
Stumpings 26
Dismissals per innings 1.741

As an allrounder Dhoni sets a strong example for an Indian team littered with stars. Most likely his responsibility as a batsman would increase when Dravid, Tendulkar and the like eventually retire. But for now up there as one of the best.

5.Sangakarra
Batting average 56.93
Centuries 27
Fifties 38
Catches 167
Stumpings 20
Dismissals per innings .994

At home Sangakarra must be one of the most devastating batsmen around, but perhaps as a true gloveman he lacks accuracy, having kept wicket for the alltime record holder Muralitheran, I would have expected not only more dismissals but also more stumpings.

The rest I leave up to you guys.

by Stella Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:24 am

cricketfan90 wrote:1.Godfrey Evans
2.Andy Flower
3.Adam Gilchrist
4.Alec Stewart
5.Jeffrery Dujon
6.Mark Boucher
7.M.S.Dhoni
8.Rod Marsh
9.Matt Prior
10.Kumar Sangakarra

Your list disappoint's me. I was expecting Kamran Akmal to be in your list Smile

by Guest Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:25 am

Stella wrote:
cricketfan90 wrote:1.Godfrey Evans
2.Andy Flower
3.Adam Gilchrist
4.Alec Stewart
5.Jeffrery Dujon
6.Mark Boucher
7.M.S.Dhoni
8.Rod Marsh
9.Matt Prior
10.Kumar Sangakarra

Your list disappoint's me. I was expecting Kamran Akmal to be in your list

i considered him lol Wink

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:29 am

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Les Ames was pre-war (OP asks for post WWII), otherwise I'd definitely have had in in my top 10.

Thank you Hoggy.

Revised;

(1) Adam Gilchrist (Teams were terrified when he came to bat, very good keeper too)
(2) Alan Knott
(3) Donald Tallon
(4) Derek Murray
(5) Rod Marsh
(6) Andy Flower
(7) Ian Healy
(8) Alec Stewart
(9) Jeffrey Dujon
(10) Godfrey Evans

by **Biltong** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:38 am

Skyeman

Ian Healy vs Mark Boucher.

How on earth can Ian Healy be at no 7 on your list and Boucher who by all standards were better than Healy doesn't even feature on your top ten.

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:42 am

biltongbek wrote:Skyeman

Ian Healy vs Mark Boucher.

How on earth can Ian Healy be at no 7 on your list and Boucher who by all standards were better than Healy doesn't even feature on your top ten.

Because I think he was better than Boucher. I have seen them both play, and that is MY top ten.

by Guest Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:53 am

skyeman wrote:
biltongbek wrote:Skyeman

Ian Healy vs Mark Boucher.

How on earth can Ian Healy be at no 7 on your list and Boucher who by all standards were better than Healy doesn't even feature on your top ten.

Because I think he was better than Boucher. I have seen them both play, and that is MY top ten.

lol it staggers me that, if i say that, then i get jumped on for not giving a good enough reason, but other people seem to not have that issue Shocked

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:55 am

Biltong, we need a top 10 mate. 5 won't do.

Cf, nobody has jumped on your choices? Have they?

by Guest Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:57 am

not on this post, but usually they do

when i usually say its my top 10 and i think its better and thats that i get jumped on

lol im not gonna name names i just want the posters that do jump on me for that to remeber this.

by Stella Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:57 am

cricketfan90 wrote:
skyeman wrote:
biltongbek wrote:Skyeman

Ian Healy vs Mark Boucher.

How on earth can Ian Healy be at no 7 on your list and Boucher who by all standards were better than Healy doesn't even feature on your top ten.

Because I think he was better than Boucher. I have seen them both play, and that is MY top ten.

lol it staggers me that, if i say that, then i get jumped on for not giving a good enough reason, but other people seem to not have that issue

To be fair, there's not much difference between the two but you did have Stephen Fleming ahead of jack Hobbs in an all time test XI Shocked

by **Biltong** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:57 am

Well what can I say.

Donald Tallon has a batting average of 17.13 and takes 1.388 dismissals per innings, and he is 3rd on the list.

Astounding.

Deryck Murray has a batting average of 22.9 with 11 fifties and takes 1.58 dismissals per innings, he is number 4 on the list.

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 11:59 am

cricketfan90 wrote:
skyeman wrote:
biltongbek wrote:Skyeman

Ian Healy vs Mark Boucher.

How on earth can Ian Healy be at no 7 on your list and Boucher who by all standards were better than Healy doesn't even feature on your top ten.

Because I think he was better than Boucher. I have seen them both play, and that is MY top ten.

lol it staggers me that, if i say that, then i get jumped on for not giving a good enough reason, but other people seem to not have that issue

LOL Give it time, it's only been a few minutes. But i did give a reason, as stated, i have seen them both play and imo Healy was better.

by Guest Tue 15 Nov 2011, 12:00 pm

skyeman its not about u i assure you thumbsup

im just saying i want people to rember this

but lets move on with this fantastic thread Very Happy

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 12:04 pm

biltongbek wrote:Well what can I say.

Donald Tallon has a batting average of 17.13 and takes 1.388 dismissals per innings, and he is 3rd on the list.

Astounding.

Deryck Murray has a batting average of 22.9 with 11 fifties and takes 1.58 dismissals per innings, he is number 4 on the list.

With these two, i mainly went for their keeping skills, the same with Alan Knott who was not the best batsman but was an exceptional keeper.

by **Biltong** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 12:10 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Biltong, we need a top 10 mate. 5 won't do.

Cf, nobody has jumped on your choices? Have they?

1. Gilchrist AUS
2. Flower ZIM
3. Boucher SA
4. Alec Stewart
5. Rod Marsh AUS
6. Alan Knott ENG
7. MS Dhoni IND
8. Sangakarra SRI
9. Ian Healy AUS
10. Jeffrey Dujon. WI

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 12:11 pm

Thanks very much, mate.

by **Biltong** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 12:13 pm

Fists of Fury wrote:Thanks very much, mate.

Yeah, you made me work there, had to go look at these guys I have never seen play to see who merits a mention.

by Hoggy_Bear Tue 15 Nov 2011, 12:13 pm

skyeman wrote:
biltongbek wrote:Well what can I say.

Donald Tallon has a batting average of 17.13 and takes 1.388 dismissals per innings, and he is 3rd on the list.

Astounding.

Deryck Murray has a batting average of 22.9 with 11 fifties and takes 1.58 dismissals per innings, he is number 4 on the list.

With these two, i mainly went for their keeping skills, the same with Alan Knott who was not the best batsman but was an exceptional keeper.

Knott was a pretty decent batsman skyeman. Much better than the likes of Murray, Tallon and IMO better with the bat than Boucher, Marsh, Healey or Dujon

by Mike Selig Tue 15 Nov 2011, 1:34 pm

My list in no particular order for now (order to be added later):

Knott
Gillchrist
A. Flower
Evans
Tallon
Healy
Marsh
Boucher
Dhoni
Kirmani

Some people are relying far too much on statistics. By all accounts Tallon was a fantastic keeper. By my account Knott was a genius with the gloves keeping to Underwood, ditto Healy to Warne (Healy was certainly a better keeper than Boucher, and as good a batsman, scoring runs under pressure and averaging 3 runs lower in a tougher time for batting).

Can't understand Stewart being in so many lists and so high there. He was a decent batsman but always batted better without the gloves, and his keeping ranged from poor to average.

Sangakara is a far better bat when he doesn't have the gloves also.

Gillchrist was underrated as a keeper, he wasn't exceptional but he made very few mistakes and took the odd blinder.

A. Flower is probably the best batsman of all wicket-keepers, and a decent keeper (to be fair he didn't always have much to do).

Knott was a fantastic keeper (of all the ones I've seen he'd get the nod as the champion) and as Hoggy has said he was a very reasonable bat (averaged high 20s?) who scored runs in unusual ways at vital times.

The last 3 make up my top 3 without a doubt, but what order and what order for the rest?

Let me go for:
1. Gillchrist
2. Knott
3. Flower
(gap)
4. Evans
5. Tallon
6. Healy
7. Boucher
8. Marsh
9. Dhoni
10. Kirmani

EDIT: I'm sorry but I've changed my mind, Knott is no 2 and Flower no.3. Flower is unfortunate his keeping didn't really make much of an impression.

by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:15 pm

Off the top of my head
Will do more research later and see if I can come up with a better list.
Atm off the top of my head

Andy Flower
Adam Gilchrist
Les Ames
Alan Knott
Denis Lindsay
Kumar Sangakkara
Alec Stewart
Matt Prior
MS Dhoni
Mark Boucher
Ian Healy
Godfrey Evans

by Guest Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:22 pm

Les Ames was pre war shanky it has to be post war, and we only need 10.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:25 pm

1. Gilchrist
2. Flower
3. Knott
4. Sangakkara
5. Marsh
6. Stewart
7. Boucher
8. Dujon
9. Healy
10. Prior

by JDizzle Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:26 pm

I placed a lot of emphasis on the batting when deciding my last so here it is:

Gilchrist
Flower
Sangakarra
Alan Knott
Mark Boucher
Alec Stewart
Godfrey Evans
Rod Marsh
Don Tallon
Ian Healy

Can't get MS Dhoni on my list at all. A great ODI batsman, and a decent Test one but that combined with his sometimes shoddy glovework but him not even top 15 of all time in my opinion. Of course his captaincy adds something, but not enough for me.

by Stella Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:30 pm

I agree about Dhoni's keeping.

It was minor county level last summer.

by sirfredperry Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:44 pm

Gilly has to be number one. Has there been such a good lower-order striker of the ball and he could keep, too.
Knott was terrific. Marvellous keeper and waspish batsman who saved England time and time again. Of the keepers who could bat there are Dujon, Stewart, Boucher, Healey (very good glovesman as well), Marsh, Murray (should have played more but they kept picking Jim Parks)
Prior could turn out to be England's best-ever wicket keeper batsman. Older posters may go for Ames, though.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:24 pm

Care to trouble us with a definitive top 10 list, Sir Fred?

Ames would certainly get in, I'd imagine, if this was an all-time greatest, but it is since the war in this instance.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:42 pm

Oldfield was pre-war wasn't he?

he would have been a shoe-in to my top 10. Need to think about this one for a bit, but the certs are
Knott
Gilchrist
Evans
Tallon
Flower
Healy
Boucher
Dujon

that's eight, a decent start; Dhoni won't be in there, decent bat (even so averages less than 40 in tests) and good at stumpings, but pretty average keeper apart from that, and as a keeper myself I'm going to pick mostly the best keepers. Actually Bob Taylor should be in there too. And maybe Rod Marsh for the last spot, so:

1. Knott
2. Evans
3. Gilchrist
4. Healy
5. Tallon
6. Flower
7. Taylor
8. Boucher
9. Marsh
10. Wasim Bari

seems about right to me Very Happy

by ShankyCricket Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:54 pm

Why do people have Dhoni above Prior?
I think we are talking about Tests here.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:57 pm

Dhoni should be nowhere near an all-time top ten TEST wicket-keeper debate for me, but hey ho it's all about opinions I guess.

Are you sure I can't slip Oldfield and Ames in there?

by GG Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:58 pm

Gilchrist
Flower
Knott
Healy
Tallon
Boucher
Dujon
Marsh
Jacobs
Stewart

by skyeman Tue 15 Nov 2011, 4:59 pm

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Why do people have Dhoni above Prior?
I think we are talking about Tests here.

If Prior continues with his (last 2 year) Test form, i think you younger guys might well be including Prior in an all time top list on forums in 30 years time.
Is batting and keeping have improved so much.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 5:40 pm

After re-considering I have found a place for Prior at 10.

by msp83 Tue 15 Nov 2011, 5:54 pm

Adam Gilchrist.
Godfrey Evans
Alan Knott.
Mark Boucher.
MS Dhoni(there has been a few questions on Dhoni here. People shouldn't judge his keeping only on the basis of the last English summer. He was never among the greatest wicket keepers, but genrally, he gets the job done, and at present, no other keeper is as good as Dhoni when it comes to quick reflex stumpings. He's a pretty good bat, better than many other names put up here. 202 dismissals in 62 tests makes him India's most successful wicket keeper, surpassing Syed Kirmani with 198 of 88 matches, thus explaning his ability to do a decent job).
Ian Healy.
Andi Flower.
Syed Kirmani.
Jeff Dujon.
Rod Marsh.

by msp83 Tue 15 Nov 2011, 5:59 pm

Prior has been good with the bat consistently, and more so in the last couple of years. However, at an overall level, he doesn't come anywhere close to Dhoni in the keeping department, althugh there has been a remarkable improvement over the last 2 years or so. Ask Ryan Sidebottom if you want!!!. Anyone remember his horrer show behind the stumps in Sri Lanka when England toured the last time? Even now he has his share of problems keeping to Graeme Swann, Firstly, he has to prove himself behind the stumps in slow and low conditions when keeping to spinners, then we can think of him being in there in any alltime sides.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 15 Nov 2011, 6:07 pm

TBH msp I wouldn't have Prior anywhere near the list either, him and Dhoni are probably top 20 (with not much to separate them right now, Dhoni the better keeper upto the stumps - but less good standing back and a less good batsman in tests), but a top ten all-time list? Even since the war, no way for me.

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