606v2 Greatest Test Wicket-Keepers Vote

First topic message reminder :

Morning folks

Same format as usual, the 10 greatest Test wicket-keepers, in your opinion, since the war.

In order, of course.

Cheers

skyeman wrote:LOL Reminds me of myself, in not checking out all the facts before posting. After this i always will

It is not as if I do not know the rule. I confused myself thats it.

I don't think this is going anywhere TBH. Coming up with the odd match where Healy gave a few byes away is not going to convince me that Dhoni's the better keeper. You could "talk" forever and a day and not get even close to convincing me. I've seen them both keep, on enough occasions to make my mind up, and like I said, they're not on the same planet. Healy would rank in the top 10 keepers (just keepers) of all time I've seen footage of, Dhoni wouldn't make the top 50.

But if you want to play Holly Wilaboobie for tat, when England toured India in 06 Dhoni gave away 19 byes in the first test, and that's in home conditions, on a pitch which can't have been that poor since it ended in a draw.

I must admit this swear filter sometimes brings us some amusing moments

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Mad - very good post.

As I said before, this is by far the most difficult category. I've currently got 5 definites and about 15 possibles. To me, they need to be at least a good keeper to get into my top 20. I'll then consider other factors as to whether they break into the top 10; Healy should be one who does.

which post was that?main test playing countries.

and if it's not too indiscrete who are your five definites? I'd guess Knott, Evans, Gilly and a couple of others?

Mad - I was referring to your post at 11:17pm although that seems a long time ago!

The five I'm pretty decided upon for inclusion in my top ten - although they may not be 1 to 5 in the final analysis - consist of 3 Englishmen and 2 Aussies. Another Englishman and another Aussie are also in contention for a top 10 place along with one or two from all the other main test playing countries.

Wow - you need to accept that personal assessment and evaluation has to come into all selections like this. You can expect us all to try and be as thorough and fair as possible but please don't expect us all to come to the same conclusions. For me, Dhoni is not dependable enough as a keeper throughout a test match as evidenced to my satisfaction in my earlier post. I appreciate you disagree.

Good night.

wow wrote:

skyeman wrote:LOL Reminds me of myself, in not checking out all the facts before posting. After this i always will

It is not as if I do not know the rule. I confused myself thats it.

LOL WOW, i was not referring to the above

Guild I am not forcing my opinion. Mad keeps saying that Dhoni does not even come in top 50, that's utter gibberish. That is by his criteria. You have only Aussies and Englsih in your list because you have seen these players closely.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/239025.html

As per you there was nothing in the pitch but Eng keeper gave away 17 byes in the first inning itself. And it wasnt me who brought byes into contention.
Dhoni's records show that he stands amongst tops what you think is your prerogative. As far as swearing is concerned then anyone can swear sitting in front of their laptop screens.

watching dhoni behind the stumps during the england tour this summer i wouldn't even put him in the top 50 wicketkeepers playing in england during 2011 let alone all-time

his test batting is ok but not spectacular and his captaincy cant be a factor in this discussion imo

well I beg to differ. Dhoni was tired when he came to England. He has been playing non stop and hardly had any rest. India won WC under his captaincy, he batted well and kept well during the cup. I doubt that the other guys played the same amount of cricket as Dhoni does.

He has performed well in all the formats of this game. Its not I disagree on his Eng tour performance but that was one off series. Matt Prior who is now best Eng WK had a very ordinary series in Aus.
Its very simple to prove that Dhoni is there amongst top because had he not been then he would have lost his place to another keeper.
Healy struggled in India and so did Gilly. Overall stats do tell us about a player and cannot be discounted.

dhoni's strengths as a cricketer in tests atm

captaincy>batting>wicketkeeping

and behave with all the tiredness nonsense , if he was not fit to play he shouldn't have been playing

he is an exceptional ODI batsman, a pretty good captain, an average test batsman and a below average wicketkeeper

if he wasn't indian you wouldn't be pushing his name at all tbh

rich1uk wrote:dhoni's strengths as a cricketer in tests atm

captaincy>batting>wicketkeeping

and behave with all the tiredness nonsense , if he was not fit to play he shouldn't have been playing

he is an exceptional ODI batsman, a pretty good captain, an average test batsman and a below average wicketkeeper

if he wasn't indian you wouldn't be pushing his name at all tbh

well have u seen the list made by most of the posters here. Dhoni deserves a mention without me being Indian. As per me Gilly has to be on top for his match winning capabilities.

Healy, Smith, and Taylor were technically pretty tight. Other names that come to mind are Tallon, Read, and Foster.

Dhoni has a few kinks.

How about jack Russell then?

jack russell was a very good keeper but his batting let him down at a time that more emphasis was being placed on a wicketkeeper needing to be an "all-rounder"

thats why this is such a tough topic to decide on because the criteria used to decide upon what constitutes a good wicketkeeper has changed alot and continues to change when you also consider limited overs cricket

Lot of assessment of Dhoni's keeping skills here, is based on the England tour, not his finest moment as keeper, batsman, and captain by any stretch of imagination.
Also I feel unknowingly, keeping to the swinging ball and faster bowlers have been rated above keeping to spinners. Keeping to spin on a helpful track is all the more dificult than keeping to the swinging ball, as at least when you keep to the fast bowler, your reaction time is more. Dhoni has done pretty ok as a keeper in general, and the England tour is not his benchmark by any means.
He is not the purest of keepers, but as I said, he is good enough. The all-round package that he is, I don't think not many would come close to that, and therefore, he has to be in there.

msp83 wrote:Lot of assessment of Dhoni's keeping skills here, is based on the England tour, not his finest moment as keeper, batsman, and captain by any stretch of imagination.
Also I feel unknowingly, keeping to the swinging ball and faster bowlers have been rated above keeping to spinners. Keeping to spin on a helpful track is all the more dificult than keeping to the swinging ball, as at least when you keep to the fast bowler, your reaction time is more. Dhoni has done pretty ok as a keeper in general, and the England tour is not his benchmark by any means.
He is not the purest of keepers, but as I said, he is good enough. The all-round package that he is, I don't think not many would come close to that, and therefore, he has to be in there.

I agree on the whole, hence he gets into my top 10. However to suggest his keeping is anywhere near the standard of (say) Healy and Knott is nonsense. Knott's keeping was extraordinary, and Healy is the only one (IMO) in the period I've watched who came close to him.

Dhoni is a decent wicket-keeper, but no better than that. He is a good batsman (going through a rough patch) and a good captain. If we were arguing on keeping alone though he would be nowhere near the top 10 (mind you, Gillchrist would probably struggle as well).

People say of Dujon that he kept to a great bowling attack, but they were all fast bowlers. Any keeper will tell you keeping to fast-bowlers is the easy part (until you get to England and the ball does bizzarre things). As I say, according to someone who is far more qualified than I, his keeping was mediocre.

If keeping is the only criteria then Latiff and Moin should also get mentioned.

Mike, who was it who told you Dujon's keeping was mediocre? I may have to change my list a little (replace Dujon with Wasim Bari).

msp, like I said, I've been biased towards the keeping side of things, hence why Dhoni misses out. Its an intuitive thing, but basically with Dhoni's standard of keeping (which everyone will admit isn't that great) his batting would have to be at least as good as Gilchrist's to make the list. Again, these are my standards for the list, and I appreciate that others see it differently, and don't have a problem with that.

wow wrote:If keeping is the only criteria then Latiff and Moin should also get mentioned.

Rashid Latif wasn't far away from making my list: he was in the "also considered" category, but ultimately don't see who he would replace on my list of ten, and they're a few more candidates ahead of him still.

Moin Khan was always a bit inconsistent in my opinion.

It's not that surprising that this is one of the most hotly-contested categories so far, as everyone will have a different criteria when it comes to rating the players.

Mike Selig wrote:

msp83 wrote:Lot of assessment of Dhoni's keeping skills here, is based on the England tour, not his finest moment as keeper, batsman, and captain by any stretch of imagination.
Also I feel unknowingly, keeping to the swinging ball and faster bowlers have been rated above keeping to spinners. Keeping to spin on a helpful track is all the more dificult than keeping to the swinging ball, as at least when you keep to the fast bowler, your reaction time is more. Dhoni has done pretty ok as a keeper in general, and the England tour is not his benchmark by any means.
He is not the purest of keepers, but as I said, he is good enough. The all-round package that he is, I don't think not many would come close to that, and therefore, he has to be in there.

I agree on the whole, hence he gets into my top 10. However to suggest his keeping is anywhere near the standard of (say) Healy and Knott is nonsense. Knott's keeping was extraordinary, and Healy is the only one (IMO) in the period I've watched who came close to him.

Dhoni is a decent wicket-keeper, but no better than that. He is a good batsman (going through a rough patch) and a good captain. If we were arguing on keeping alone though he would be nowhere near the top 10 (mind you, Gillchrist would probably struggle as well).

People say of Dujon that he kept to a great bowling attack, but they were all fast bowlers. Any keeper will tell you keeping to fast-bowlers is the easy part (until you get to England and the ball does bizzarre things). As I say, according to someone who is far more qualified than I, his keeping was mediocre.

I haven't watched Nott keeping, but from whatever I read up, he was superb. But I have watched Ian Healy, and on pure keeping alone, I must say he's far ahead of Dhoni. Gilly made an impactful ODI debut in 1996, there was a reason why he had to wait another 3 years to make his test debut!!.
But as I said, Dhoni is not as bad a keeper as he's at times made out to be.

Dujon had a certain grace.

Artistic impression got him in my 10

I don't like getting involved in these things but I've found some of the responses very interesting so I'll add 3 comments:

1. I am surprised at the lack of acknowledgement for Sangakarra - the guy is a batting genius and has spent much of his international career standing up to the stumps with the thing spitting up, down and sideways, to Murali and his back ups, his record is exceptional.
Keeping to the Slinger can't always be fun either.

2. The lack of respect for Alec Stewart who may have spent much of his career in an average England team is surprising to me, his fitness and concentration to spend 2 days fielding then open the batting was remarkable.

3. The over respect given to Mark Boucher.
He's been a model player for SA and an outstanding performer, but the attack he's played with have rarely offered anything other than pace and seam up, his life behind the sticks hasn't been that tough in my opinion.
AB De Villiers took over for a test (or two ?) a couple of years back and his team mates felt there wasn't much to choose between them.
I geneuinely hate criticising professional and nice guys (and MB is both) but I can't have him as a top 10 keeper since the war.

I think sanga's exclusion is because of the fact that he does not keep in tests any more. But I agree that he is a top man for the job.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/50710.html

He has scored 27 tons which might be highest for a keeper but his dismissals are 167 roughly 10 behind Dhoni and he has played nearly 30 tests more than Dhoni which can be attributed to the fact that he is not keeping regularly in tests.

Sangakkara averages 40 with the gloves, 72 without them, that's a huge difference.

Grizzly wrote:I don't like getting involved in these things but I've found some of the responses very interesting so I'll add 3 comments:

1. I am surprised at the lack of acknowledgement for Sangakarra - the guy is a batting genius and has spent much of his international career standing up to the stumps with the thing spitting up, down and sideways, to Murali and his back ups, his record is exceptional.
Keeping to the Slinger can't always be fun either.

2. The lack of respect for Alec Stewart who may have spent much of his career in an average England team is surprising to me, his fitness and concentration to spend 2 days fielding then open the batting was remarkable.

3. The over respect given to Mark Boucher.
He's been a model player for SA and an outstanding performer, but the attack he's played with have rarely offered anything other than pace and seam up, his life behind the sticks hasn't been that tough in my opinion.
AB De Villiers took over for a test (or two ?) a couple of years back and his team mates felt there wasn't much to choose between them.
I geneuinely hate criticising professional and nice guys (and MB is both) but I can't have him as a top 10 keeper since the war.

Inclined to agree with everything you have just said.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Sangakkara averages 40 with the gloves, 72 without them, that's a huge difference.

Still not a bad average with the gloves.

yeah but not enough to get him into my top 10, again with his level of keeping, and given he's played most of his career on the flatter pitches, I'd say he'd need to have an average similar to Gilchrist's (with the gloves) to get in there. It's much the same thing with Stewart, his batting dipped when he had the gloves, and his keeping wasn't top standard either.

Boucher I've discussed before, I rate him highly as a keeper, and can't help thinking that if AB was really that close to him in terms of wicket-keeping he'd have taken over the role by now. Boucher's longevity is also a big factor.

South Africa see AB as the most important batsman around they can build a core of uppcoming pplayers after the Kallis days. Rather than his lack of keeping skills or for that matter that of Boucher, its De Villiers's importance as a batsman that prevents the SA management from thrusting the keeping responsibilities. To add to that, SA sees ABDV in a leadership role as well, and he has been already given the responsibilities of the limited overs sides. .
As I said in Dhoni's case, managing all these responsibilities, is just not easy, and many keepers haven't done it successfully.

Dhoni is the most successful keeper captain anyway. His stats are pretty impressive too. If you see he is the only Indian player who hardly had any rest in year 2011. He plays non stop cricket. He can even bowl and nearly had his first scalp

yeah Dhoni was about India's second-best seamer in the last England series

JOKE! DON'T SHOOT ME!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yeah Dhoni was about India's second-best seamer in the last England series

JOKE! DON'T SHOOT ME!

Joke, but not so far away from the truth sadly!.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yeah Dhoni was about India's second-best seamer in the last England series

JOKE! DON'T SHOOT ME!

It is quite funny.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yeah Dhoni was about India's second-best seamer in the last England series

JOKE! DON'T SHOOT ME!

That made me laugh. See PM wrt Dujon (don't feel I should name the guy publicly).

Grizzly wrote:I don't like getting involved in these things but I've found some of the responses very interesting so I'll add 3 comments:

1. I am surprised at the lack of acknowledgement for Sangakarra - the guy is a batting genius and has spent much of his international career standing up to the stumps with the thing spitting up, down and sideways, to Murali and his back ups, his record is exceptional.
Keeping to the Slinger can't always be fun either.

2. The lack of respect for Alec Stewart who may have spent much of his career in an average England team is surprising to me, his fitness and concentration to spend 2 days fielding then open the batting was remarkable.

3. The over respect given to Mark Boucher.
He's been a model player for SA and an outstanding performer, but the attack he's played with have rarely offered anything other than pace and seam up, his life behind the sticks hasn't been that tough in my opinion.
AB De Villiers took over for a test (or two ?) a couple of years back and his team mates felt there wasn't much to choose between them.
I geneuinely hate criticising professional and nice guys (and MB is both) but I can't have him as a top 10 keeper since the war.

1) As mentioned Sanga is a good batsman when with the gloves, but not extraordinary (not in the league of Gillchrist and Flower certainly). His keeping was good but not great as well, I think SL have had many better keepers.

2) Stewart was a fairly average keeper for most of his career (he improved with age) and mostly failed with the bat when asked to keep wicket. Honestly he'd struggle to make my top 20, let alone a top 10.

3) Boucher had a dodgy start with the gloves, but from his return (after the somewhat stupid Tsolekile experiment) he has been consistently the best keeper in international cricket. I also feel he usually gets runs when his team needs him the most.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/series-tournaments/west-indies-in-india/top-stories/Im-neither-specialist-batsman-nor-extraordinary-keeper-Dhoni/articleshow/10769408.cms

This is what Dujon has to say about Dhoni however Dhoni is candid enough to admit what he is.

My top ten:

1. A Gilchrist
2. A Knott
3. G Evans
4. R Marsh
5. S Kirmani
6 I Healy
7. J Russell
8. Deryck Murray
9. R Taylor
10. D Lindsay

Apologies and highly honourable mention to Wasim Bari who was just squeezed out of the above list.

Gilchrist was not the best in terms of pure keeping but he was still a good keeper and had that X factor. As a result, he would be the wicket keeper I would most want in my team. That's why he gets my number one spot.

One other to particularly flag is Jack Russell who has, in my view, been surprisingly overlooked by many here. As talented as he was eccentric; he holds the record for the most dismissals in a test match (eleven against South Africa) - the night before when he was on the verge of attaining this record he, by his own admission, sat up until 4:00am drinking tea and watching the lightning outside his hotel balcony! More than any keeper, he made it possible for any type of bowler (not just a slow bowler) to take a wicket through a stumping; sit back and enjoy the link below. Also, Russell had some considerable batting triumphs - two test centuries but probably his best innings was his 29* when he held out for over four and a half hours against South Africa to steal a draw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgn4f8xDYI8

Finally honourable mentions in no particular oder to to D Tallon, W Grout, K Wadsworth (as flagged in an earler post), I Smith, J Dujon, F Engineer, K Sangakkara, A Flower, John Murray and countless others.

Right my actual list:

1) Gilchrist
2) Healy
3) Knott
4) Jack Russel
5) Kirmani
6) Marsh
7) Sangakkara
8) Dhoni
9) Smith
10) Wadsworth

My top ten:

M S Dhoni
Adam gilchrist
Andy Flower
Mark Boucher
Ian Healy
Kumar Sangakkra
Jeff Dujon
Lee Germon
Mushfiqqur Rahim
Taibu

Forget to mention Mongia. A natural mover.he made keeping look so easy.

guildfordbat wrote:My top ten:

1. A Gilchrist
2. A Knott
3. G Evans
4. R Marsh
5. S Kirmani
6 I Healy
7. J Russell
8. Deryck Murray
9. R Taylor
10. D Lindsay

Apologies and highly honourable mention to Wasim Bari who was just squeezed out of the above list.

Gilchrist was not the best in terms of pure keeping but he was still a good keeper and had that X factor. As a result, he would be the wicket keeper I would most want in my team. That's why he gets my number one spot.

One other to particularly flag is Jack Russell who has, in my view, been surprisingly overlooked by many here. As talented as he was eccentric; he holds the record for the most dismissals in a test match (eleven against South Africa) - the night before when he was on the verge of attaining this record he, by his own admission, sat up until 4:00am drinking tea and watching the lightning outside his hotel balcony! More than any keeper, he made it possible for any type of bowler (not just a slow bowler) to take a wicket through a stumping; sit back and enjoy the link below. Also, Russell had some considerable batting triumphs - two test centuries but probably his best innings was his 29* when he held out for over four and a half hours against South Africa to steal a draw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgn4f8xDYI8

Finally honourable mentions in no particular oder to to D Tallon, W Grout, K Wadsworth (as flagged in an earler post), I Smith, J Dujon, F Engineer, K Sangakkara, A Flower, John Murray and countless others.

What a terrific piece of wicket-keeping. Thanks for sharing that, Guildford, it is a clip I've unfortunately not laid eyes on before.

You know, I had completely overlooked Russell, and feel ashamed to say that I had forgotten about him altogether. At this late stage he has very little chance of getting in to our top 10, judging by the votes, but I'm certainly glad he got an honourable mention.

I find Russell an interesting one, I gave him some serious consideration, but ultimately left him out for two reasons:

1) lacked the longevity factor, as the selectors preferred Stewart for most of his career. Admittedly this says probably more about England's batting short-comings than anything else.

2) I remember that tour to the WI (think it was 97-98) where Russelle struggled quite badly: lots of byes, and quite a few missed chances. Unfortunately this tour was just after I started watching cricket seriously so stuck in my mind.

On his day, a keeping genius, in the line of Knott, Taylor and others. But perhaps not as dependable as the other names on my list. Then again, looking at that video again, and remembering similar brilliant pieces of work (in fact there's a remarkably resemblant stumping of Dermot Reeve in the WC quarter final here - about 6:40 into the video), maybe I'm being a bit too harsh on the lad...

Mad - looking in just before bed.

Certainly no major disagreement on Russell. We've both got our memories of him and also done a bit of research. Just come to slightly different conclusions, not so much about him but where he fits in (or doesn't).

A flawed genius would be my view. Being a genius of any sort gets him in my top ten but his flaws keep him out of my top five.

I accept your point 2) without complaint. Someone with Russell's eccentricities would almost inevitably have inconsistentcies in character and performance. Totally natural that early cricket impressions last a lifetime :eg, me watching Mike Procter bowling for the Rest of the World in 1970; eg, the Corporal listening on the radio to commentaries of Ken Barrington batting in the 1960s. Just a shame for you and Russell that your first impressions of him were duff ones! To be fair, that's Russell's fault and not yours.

Understand your point 1) and accept it to a degree. Russell still played over 50 tests. In my view, he was unlucky to be kept out so much by Stewart who was not a patch behind the stumps although clearly a superior batsman. As you suggest, Russell lost out too often due to the failings of others with the bat. It should be noted though, as I flagged earlier, that Russell was no mug with the bat and could at times be highly effective.

Super link you provided, many thanks. Of all the wicket keepers we've considered, Russell was probably the best at making a stumping. On the link I supplied, look at the expression on bowler Gladstone Small's face after the wicket - a mix of relief, pleasure and bewilderment. It was not a planned action between bowler and keeper - just a possible opportunity Russell saw and took brilliantly.

Btw, really enjoyed and appreciated our posts on this subject. Good night.

wow wrote:My top ten:

M S Dhoni
Adam gilchrist
Andy Flower
Mark Boucher
Ian Healy
Kumar Sangakkra
Jeff Dujon
Lee Germon
Mushfiqqur Rahim
Taibu

Rahim and Taibu but no Prior or Knott?

If Mushfiqur Rahim continues to bat the way he's been doing for the last 2-3 years and improve his wicket keeping skills considerably, he can be talked about in such a list may be 3-4 years from now. the guy is just 24, and already has international experience close to a decade. During that period, he has shown that he's a determined and skilled batsman, improving consistently. In between, he showed flashes of brilliance behind the wicket, but has been very inconsistent. Even in 3 years time, he would hardly make it to the top 10, but might just be talked about.

Tatenta Taibu has been Zimbabwe's best behind the wicket. His batting isn't too shabby either. But not good enough to make it to the list as yet. Again, Zimbabwe are back to test cricket, and if Taibu continues to develop his all-round game, may be who knows?