Fierce Rivalries - Friends After?

Hello all,

First contribution on this forum, but for years I followed the boxing threads on original 606 and then more recently here. It's worth saying i've thoroughly enjoyed reading this board, and a lot of the chuff that went on a times on 606 seems to have been disappeared, leaving good debates with the odd bit of fun…that's why i've joined.

Anyway, the topic I want to discuss is essentially which fighters had fierce rivalries in the ring, but good relationships outside (either during their careers of after)??

Prompted by the Robinson-Burley thread from a few days ago, I looked back at his fights with Jake LaMotta and found the following documentary. It seemed to show there was respect and even friendship between the two:

(i'm not allowed to put links, but stick 'jake lamotta the way it was' into youtube)

I can think of a few cases where the opposite is the case (e.g. Frazier still doesn't like Ali, Benn v Eubank, etc) but what would your suggestions be for fierce rivalries ending up in respect/friendship between the fighters? Any reading/viewing material always welcome.

Thanks

Welcome aboard sportsman, good to see you contributing.

One that I'd suggest is an old video (which I believe is contained within our boxing vault) of Sugar Ray Robinson and Randy Turpin at their post-fight press conference. Real gentlemen and nothing but kind words for one another.

Think Benn and Eubank could fall into this category. Benn openly admits he hated Eubank when they were both fighting but relations seem to have thawed greatly in recent years.

Welcome aboard by the way

Tunney - Greb/Dempsey

Ward - Gatti

Robinson - Fullmer/Basilio/Turpin

rowley wrote:Think Benn and Eubank could fall into this category. Benn openly admits he hated Eubank when they were both fighting but relations seem to have thawed greatly in recent years.

Welcome aboard by the way

Cheers,

I do find the bent/eubank great entertainment. I've seen a video where they sign their contract live on tv, and eubank is talking as he always has - very sophisticated, saying he doesn't hate Bent, wants to prove he's number 1 etc. Then Bent just comes out with something like 'we'll I do actually hate the guy'...funny to see.

Ha yes I recall that one, sure it can be found on youtube, absolutely brilliant.

I'm not overly sure on this one, but didn't Morales and MAB have an utter hatred for each other? That pretty much divided Mexico as MAB was the upper class accountant (i think that's what he's qualified/went to qualify in) and Morales the boy done good from the slums etc

I don't think they ever became great mates, but after leaving their mark on each other (literally) they found a new level of respect for each other?

Absolutely true about Tunney and Greb. Gene was a pall-bearer at Greb's funeral, and the two always had the highest respect for each other.

Another well-documented case is that of Vicente Saldivar and Howard Winstone, who had that marvellous trilogy in the 1960s. They became great friends afterwards, with Winstone, I know, going over to spend time with Saldivar and his family during the 1968 Mexico City Olympic Games. This despite the fact that Saldivar had very little English and Winstone absolutely no Spanish! I believe that Winstone went to the Mexican's funeral and took the news of Saldivar's untimely death very hard.

Larry Holmes and Gerry Cooney became great friends and done a lot of work for charity together.

I dont think Tunney ever rated a heavyweight besides Dempsey either

Oddly enough, though, I believe that Greb was less impressed by Dempsey as a fighter. Having been kicked out of sparring camp once for making Dempsey look bad, Greb refused the invitation to help Jack prepare for his first fight with Tunney (not long, I suppose, before Greb's death). Greb is supposed to have said: "Doesn't matter what shape I help Jack get into, he can't lick Gene."

Harrison and Haye were best buddies, until Haye hit Harrison in a sparring session, then they really hated each other until just after their fight, when they became best buddies again, but considerably richer best buddies.

I am rather gullible though, so I may have been taken in by the hype, and that may not actually be true.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Oddly enough, though, I believe that Greb was less impressed by Dempsey as a fighter. Having been kicked out of sparring camp once for making Dempsey look bad, Greb refused the invitation to help Jack prepare for his first fight with Tunney (not long, I suppose, before Greb's death). Greb is supposed to have said: "Doesn't matter what shape I help Jack get into, he can't lick Gene."

I guess it would depend when Greb did his sparring with Dempsey. Dempsey seems to be a guy that went from quite ordianry to very good in a short space of time. I think he was world champ only about a year after losing to Willie Meehan. Maybe the version Greb sparred with was a young Dempsey or when Dempsey was coming back after a few years of inactivity in his later career?

SportsmanGC wrote:Hello all,

First contribution on this forum, but for years I followed the boxing threads on original 606 and then more recently here. It's worth saying i've thoroughly enjoyed reading this board, and a lot of the chuff that went on a times on 606 seems to have been disappeared, leaving good debates with the odd bit of fun…that's why i've joined.

Anyway, the topic I want to discuss is essentially which fighters had fierce rivalries in the ring, but good relationships outside (either during their careers of after)??

Prompted by the Robinson-Burley thread from a few days ago, I looked back at his fights with Jake LaMotta and found the following documentary. It seemed to show there was respect and even friendship between the two:

(i'm not allowed to put links, but stick 'jake lamotta the way it was' into youtube)

I can think of a few cases where the opposite is the case (e.g. Frazier still doesn't like Ali, Benn v Eubank, etc) but what would your suggestions be for fierce rivalries ending up in respect/friendship between the fighters? Any reading/viewing material always welcome.

Thanks

benn and eubank are now friends.
as are calzaghe and froch who now openly share a respect for each other's careers.

It was 1920, Manos. Greb was sparring Dempsey as part of Jack's preparations for his defence against Billy Miske, and they did three sessions together. Greb was reportedly "like a whirlwind", split Dempsey's tongue and was not invited back.

The appeared to be some dislike between Mayweather and Hatton before there fight, but apparently are both now friends, Mayweather even praised Hatton after the fight (a traight rarely seen in Mayweather)

Am always a bit wary of putting too much stock into these sparring stories because sparring obviously ain't fighting. Larry Holmes tells a story of a fall out Ali had with heavyweight fringe contender Roy Williams in camp and they sparred 20 odd rounds full pelt with Williams apparently giving Ali all he could handle and then some, does not mean it would happen had they met for real. However the Greb story does appear to have plenty of credence to it. Personally get the impression though that Greb's style was so unorthodox even those who could handle him such as Tunney took a hell of a long time to work him out.

Yeah with Dempsey against Greb I would have imagined it was a case of two similar kind of swarmers and that a good big 'un beats a good little 'un.

Makes you wonder if it didnt half tempt Greb to take a shot at the heavyweight title himself!

Great article

I would contribute Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano who had 3 murderous fights. Only 1 of those fights were recorded on film but the ko by Zale was tremendous. They became friends after.

Also Carman Basillio and Tony Demarco. I think they had 2 fights but they were classics. Demarco is dead now but Bassilio considered him a very good friend for years.

There was talk about Greb-Dempsey for real in 1922 and 1924, either a ten-round non-title match, or even a fight for all the marbles. The newspapers of the day reported that "Greb makes Dempsey look like a kitten" after their sparring, and a noted promoter, Charley Murray, supposedly tried to arrange a title fight in '24. However, when the match was mooted, Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, is reported to have said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch." Dempsey was a bit keener, apparently, but that was the end of it.

Marquez & Vasquez have beat the absolute living hell out of each other, but they always seemed quite respectful of each other.

de gale and groves

captain carrantuohil wrote:There was talk about Greb-Dempsey for real in 1922 and 1924, either a ten-round non-title match, or even a fight for all the marbles. The newspapers of the day reported that "Greb makes Dempsey look like a kitten" after their sparring, and a noted promoter, Charley Murray, supposedly tried to arrange a title fight in '24. However, when the match was mooted, Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, is reported to have said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch." Dempsey was a bit keener, apparently, but that was the end of it.

Interesting. Im going to have do more reading into Dempsey. It does look a bit like his management were of the safety first approach and low risk kind of mould. Rather poignant that 4 of Dempseys title opponents had losses to Greb previously (although Tunney obviously means little). Perhaps time for a "Did Dempsey Duck Greb?" article.

manos de piedra wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:There was talk about Greb-Dempsey for real in 1922 and 1924, either a ten-round non-title match, or even a fight for all the marbles. The newspapers of the day reported that "Greb makes Dempsey look like a kitten" after their sparring, and a noted promoter, Charley Murray, supposedly tried to arrange a title fight in '24. However, when the match was mooted, Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, is reported to have said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch." Dempsey was a bit keener, apparently, but that was the end of it.

Interesting. Im going to have do more reading into Dempsey. It does look a bit like his management were of the safety first approach and low risk kind of mould. Rather poignant that 4 of Dempseys title opponents had losses to Greb previously (although Tunney obviously means little). Perhaps time for a "Did Dempsey Duck Greb?" article.

My opinion is he did but would be as much Kearns' doing as Dempsey's. From what i've read Greb got the better of the sparring, and must have been some fighter.

Had to search for it on YouTube after it was mentioned on here. Benn and Eubank signing the contract for their first fight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO-jsOiJfxs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

If only boxing was this entertaining now.

Floyd Patterson and Ingemar Johansson became good friends after their trilogy. Don't think there was too much bad blood in the fights themselves but they did knock seven shades out of each other in a fierce sporting rivalry. Visited each other regularly once they retired and even did a few marathons together..

The Galveston Giant wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

captain carrantuohil wrote:There was talk about Greb-Dempsey for real in 1922 and 1924, either a ten-round non-title match, or even a fight for all the marbles. The newspapers of the day reported that "Greb makes Dempsey look like a kitten" after their sparring, and a noted promoter, Charley Murray, supposedly tried to arrange a title fight in '24. However, when the match was mooted, Jack Kearns, Dempsey's manager, is reported to have said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch." Dempsey was a bit keener, apparently, but that was the end of it.

Interesting. Im going to have do more reading into Dempsey. It does look a bit like his management were of the safety first approach and low risk kind of mould. Rather poignant that 4 of Dempseys title opponents had losses to Greb previously (although Tunney obviously means little). Perhaps time for a "Did Dempsey Duck Greb?" article.

My opinion is he did but would be as much Kearns' doing as Dempsey's. From what i've read Greb got the better of the sparring, and must have been some fighter.

Yeah quite possibly, which is the same argument put forward for not fighting Wills. But fighters have to live and die by thier managements choices to some extent.

They certainly do, i believe if Dempsey really wanted the fight it would have happened.

Would have been interesting to see how Dempsey would have handled Greb. Tunney eventually got the better of Greb from their 3rd fight on (the second fight went to Tunney but the decision was contentious) by following the blueprint, laid out by Benny Leonard, of countering the non-stop Greb with a body attack yo slow him down. Dempsey was never a counterpuncher and it's likely that he would have engaged in an all out war. Dempsey probably hit harder than anyone Greb ever faced so he would have a chance of stopping Greb if he could pin him down long enough. Would have been fascinating though and not beyond the realms of possibility for Greb to take a decision.

As to the original question, what about Johnson and Choynski? Jack and Al were jailed after their fight at which point Al proceeded to teach Jack a few of the defensive tricks for which Johnson became famous.

Great stuff isn't it Superflyweight.

Lewis and Bruno were rivals there was bad blood between them coz Bruno said Lewis was not really British I think this offended Lewis and was uncalled for and he proved he was the better fighter than Bruno. The two are friends now which is good to see they shook hands at the Haye Harrison fight and had plenty of respect for each other I guess you could say Haye and Harrison were rivals from their younger days but they are also friends again now.

That's good to hear about Froch and Calzaghe.

What Froch has done recently is incredible and a level of competition unheard of for British fighters of the same generation so I like to hear there is a mutual respect now.

Burley and Moore becam good friends in Burley's later years.

RE Morales and Barrera, I think Barrera's hatred petered out, whereas Morales never seemed to stop. When Morales fought Manny, Barrera said he wanted Morales to win because he always wants the Mexican to win. Morales said he didn't believe him. You've gotta wonder what makes a guy like Barrera keep on coming in boxing when he could be making a good living doing something where there aren't guys trying to kill him.

defp Gatti/Ward, they used to spar after their fights, Ward sparred Gatti before a couple of his last fights and they were very complimentary of each other i think

I would agree on Ward/Gatti after the wars they had in the ring they were very friendly outside the ring. Cant recall where i saw the clip but there is one of Ward & Gatti in the hospital after a fight side by side having a joke and a laugh. Very good sportsmaship shown between the pair.

Did Joe Louis and Max Schmeling not become quite good friends after their second fight?

Always felt sorry for Schmeling in how he was used as a propaganda tool by his goverment.

coxy0001 wrote:I'm not overly sure on this one, but didn't Morales and MAB have an utter hatred for each other? That pretty much divided Mexico as MAB was the upper class accountant (i think that's what he's qualified/went to qualify in) and Morales the boy done good from the slums etc

I don't think they ever became great mates, but after leaving their mark on each other (literally) they found a new level of respect for each other?

What about you and D4 fierce rivals for nearly 3 years...best friends after?

Ingemar Johansson and Floyd Patterson, who shared that epic trilogy, became very close friends in later life, often holidaying at each other's homes and - if I remember rightly - opening a small business together in Sweden.

Johansson used to joke that Patterson was more popular in Sweden than he was.

DoubleD22 wrote:I would agree on Ward/Gatti after the wars they had in the ring they were very friendly outside the ring. Cant recall where i saw the clip but there is one of Ward & Gatti in the hospital after a fight side by side having a joke and a laugh. Very good sportsmaship shown between the pair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svt5xxgd9W4

This the one?

pryor and arguello

JBW - great find that video, really shows how much a boxer has to go through after a war like that. You can kinda see why some boxers are more negative and take safer options in their career...it's hard to criticise when you see this.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

DoubleD22 wrote:I would agree on Ward/Gatti after the wars they had in the ring they were very friendly outside the ring. Cant recall where i saw the clip but there is one of Ward & Gatti in the hospital after a fight side by side having a joke and a laugh. Very good sportsmaship shown between the pair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svt5xxgd9W4

This the one?

Yea thats the one!

Recon you could add Cleverly/Bellew to this list now

Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis were rivals who can forget that press conference? Tyson said he would eat Lewis' children Lewis had no kids lol. Now the two of them are friends there is no bad blood anymore.

Mayweather Jnr and Zab Judah really hated each other before there fight. Remember the scuffle between the two corners at the end of round 10 (I think). Now they are very good friends.

prettyboykev wrote:Mayweather Jnr and Zab Judah really hated each other before there fight. Remember the scuffle between the two corners at the end of round 10 (I think). Now they are very good friends.

together they are the millwall of boxing, and can be seen wandering around town together, bathed in bling singing "no-one likes us, we don't care"