Shane Williams

First of all let me just say what a superb player he has been over the last ten years or so for Wales, magnificent to watch and up there with the all time best in my humble opinion.

Just wanted to know your thoughts on his retirement...., could he play on for another year to help make the transition for youngsters to come through a little easier? Seems to still have the pace and an eye for the line?

I think he could and I kind of want him to but I think it's probably best if he does retire. He'll be 35 during next seasons 6N and we really need to be giving the youngsters more time. The back three I want to see is:

Stoddart
North
Halfpenny

They are the future and need a run together...

Yeah a good argument for blooding youngsters, just torn between us maintaining the best possible squad for 2012 so we can kick on from the world cup and sustain the form, also gives time for our quality youngsters to come through

Yeah I'm surprised how little mention there's been of Williams. He's been overshadowed by the likes of Warburton, North, Faletau, Roberts, Priestland etc.

He has been an amazing player over the years and has been a fantastic amassador for Wales and rugby in general.

His influence has been waning in games I think but it's worth noting that he scored probably Wales two most important tries in this tournament and also made that crucial tackle on SOB, so he is still a player for the big stage even if the wonder tries and seering breaks are becoming few and far between now. He still draws defenders though and creates space for his teammates.

I'd say he probably could still contribute something at international level if he wanted to continue but this seems like a good time for him to bow out and he'll be remebered as one of the best and exciting players of his generation.

If Matthew Morgan doesn't make it as a 10 he would be an interesting option as someone to replace Williams in the future.

He should retire from international rugby after Friday's game against the Wallabies. It would be a great shame if his career ended with him being dropped because he's hung around too long.

Ah we've known Shane was retiring after the rwc for ages. He came out before the 6N's and said that was his last 6N's and he'd hang his international boots up after the rwc.

What I like about Shane in this rwc is that he doesn't feel like he has to do everything himself. Like Rodders says he's scored two of our key tries and has always been in the right place to do his job brilliantly for Wales. With the other players stepping up now, he won't be the big loss he would have been last season. I think he's making the right decision.

Stoddard has been involved with the squad off and on for sometime now and is not a real youngsters as such so if he makes good recovery then it won't be such a big wrench.

With the amount of games they play these days, they will soon rack up the caps and experience.

Yeah agreed that stoddard can do a job, only concern is that if we want to be a top three side in the world then we need to start looking for more world class back three options - brew not being that... if any of the back three get injured - Williams doing another year or so would allow us some time - just a thought, can certainly see both sides of the coin

Another point is that Wales are playing a different way now and Williams is no longer the focal point in attack the way he was before.

The high risk offloading game has been replaced with a more pragmatic, power and defence orientated game. Jamie Roberts, and to a lesser extent George North, have really replaced Williams as main players in the back line and we see a lot less of Williams coming into 1st reciever looking for the half break and offload.

Williams still slots into the gameplan with his support play but he isn't crucial to it anymore.

roddersm wrote:

He has been an amazing player over the years and has been a fantastic amassador for Wales and rugby in general.

You must be joking! This is the player who got on a plane and went before a citing commissioner and lied that he heard something that he couldn't have heard because he wasn't close enough to hear and could have destroyed a fellow professional's reputation.

I hope Welsh rugby is better than that.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

He has been an amazing player over the years and has been a fantastic amassador for Wales and rugby in general.

You must be joking! This is the player who got on a plane and went before a citing commissioner and lied that he heard something that he couldn't have heard because he wasn't close enough to hear and could have destroyed a fellow professional's reputation.

I hope Welsh rugby is better than that.

What was that sin? Was it against Quinlan? I can't remember the exact details.

Anyways Williams has always been a fabulous player to watch and comes across as gentleman of the pitch.

If he lied to a citing commission then thats not cool but I still stand by my assessment of Williams.

Sin e

What are you referring too? i cant remember anything too controversial about Williams

Havent Wales already been blooding new young talent to replace Shane already? It was my impression that they had been and with sucess.

A great player and will be remembered as one othe best wingers of al time.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

He has been an amazing player over the years and has been a fantastic amassador for Wales and rugby in general.

You must be joking! This is the player who got on a plane and went before a citing commissioner and lied that he heard something that he couldn't have heard because he wasn't close enough to hear and could have destroyed a fellow professional's reputation.

I hope Welsh rugby is better than that.

What was that sin? Was it against Quinlan? I can't remember the exact details.

Anyways Williams has always been a fabulous player to watch and comes across as gentleman of the pitch.

If he lied to a citing commission then thats not cool but I still stand by my assessment of Williams.

The Ospreys cited Marcus Horan for racially abusing Elvis Seveali'i in a Heineken Cup game (this was as a counter to Munster citing Mustoe for stamping on Horan's head - which required stitches). Shane Williams went to the hearing (got on a plane and flew to Dublin, so he had time to think about it) and swore that he heard Marcus Horan abusing Elvis. The mikes picked up exactly what Horan said and the cameras showed that Shane Williams wasn't close enough to Horan to actually hear what he said anyway. The statement from the ERC was very strong which stated that Horan never uttered the words in the first place.

After that incident, independent citing commissioners were introduced.

Think how annoyed Ulster fans were about the Spide incident and multiply it by about 1000.

I can see how that would upset Munster fans Sin.

im not going to get into it here but thanks for clearing up what you meant.

Standulstermen wrote:I can see how that would upset Munster fans Sin.

im not going to get into it here but thanks for clearing up what you meant.

Do you not think it shows what kind of person he is? FFS, he was prepared to lie and destroy a man's career to try and get someone's suspension shortened by a few weeks!
Whatever about him being a great rugby player, he is a very disappointing human being no matter how well he speaks after losing a match.

Sin

Like i say im not going to get into here because it will end up in a 10 page thread arguing round and round. Im not dismissing what you are saying at all and i appreciate your point. But in the interests of not arguing tirelessly with welsh fans on here (and i am tired) im not going to post what i think publicly. if i had more energy i may have posted what i think.

Yeah same here Sin. It is a fair point and it is a blight on his character if he did lie as you are suggesting.

I can only judge him on what I have seen and for me he has been a wonderful player and comes across as a fine sportsman.

roddersm wrote:Yeah same here Sin. It is a fair point and it is a blight on his character if he did lie as you are suggesting.

I can only judge him on what I have seen and for me he has been a wonderful player and comes across as a fine sportsman.

There is no doubt that he lied.

Report of the hearing:

".....
- in the case of Marcus Horan, for an alleged remark made during the match to a player of the opposing team, the Committee did not find it established that Mr Horan, or anyone else on the Munster team, had made the remark complained of. Therefore the Committee dismissed the citing. Had the Committee found the remark had been made, the Committee would have regarded it as racist abuse and foul play. The Committee went further and held that the alleged remark had not been made.".

You still think he is a fine sportsman?

Sin é wrote:
You still think he is a fine sportsman?

If he lied to the committee, and it looks like he may have done, then I would deem it out of character for a player who has always come across as a fine sportsman.

Do you deem Alan Quinlan a dirty player because he got banned for gouging? I don't.

I don't think you can judge someones whole career and character on one isolated incident.

As a player he was fantastic - this coming from an Englishman. However, I didn't like it whenever we had to face him. Surely THAT is the best praise any International player can get?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
You still think he is a fine sportsman?

If he lied to the committee, and it looks like he may have done, then I would deem it out of character for a player who has always come across as a fine sportsman.

Do you deem Alan Quinlan a dirty player because he got banned for gouging? I don't.

I don't think you can judge someones whole career and character on one isolated incident.

Alan Quinlan never lied to get someone else into trouble - thats the bit that is very unsportsman like - and as I said, he didn't do it on the spur of the moment. He had time to think about it. Mustoe got a 12 week ban for stamping Horan. He tried to destroy Horan's reputation/career to get Mustoe off for a few weeks.

There is no similarity between Quinlan (or Warburton for that matter) & Williams. Warburton isn't a dirty player either, but he got a ban. What Williams did wasn't in the heat of battle - he had plenty of time to think rationally about it.

Sin I don't know enough about the incident to debate it. I'm not defending Williams but it is out of character.

If he lied then that is terrible sportsmanship but it is an isolated incident and aside from this Williams has been an model sportman.

roddersm wrote:Sin I don't know enough about the incident to debate it. I'm not defending Williams but it is out of character.

If he lied then that is terrible sportsmanship but it is an isolated incident and aside from this Williams has been an model sportman.

Rods - there is no doubt he lied. How much more proof do you want. That incident prompted the ERC to introduce an independent citing commissioner because sportmanship went missing in this incident. Hopefully Williams learned something from the incident by being caught out, but I don't think good sportmanship comes to him naturally.

However, the Welsh side's attempted camouflage descended to ignominious levels when they counter-cited, asserting incredulously that their Samoan centre, Elvis Seveali'i, had suffered racial abuse from Marcus Horan.

The blameless Clare man had to wait until days before he was due to play for Ireland against South Africa to clear his name; Munster angrily responded by stating that "the action taken by ... Ospreys has no place in sport."

Horan later admitted that he would never speak to Seveali'i again; nor Shane Williams, who remains at the club, although he is currently sidelined.

"They're the two guys who lied that day," Horan later recalled. The controversy prompted the ERC to introduce their independent citing system.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/bad-blood-2461163.html

Ickle Shane should do what he wants to do.

I don't like what he's done to England from time to time (i.e. scoring).

He's an all-time great for Wales - Along with Barry, Gareth, JJ, JPR, the Pooler front row etc..

Sin é wrote:
Rods - there is no doubt he lied. How much more proof do you want.

Sin I'm not disputing it but there's a difference between saying something that is untrue and lying. Perhaps it was a genuine mistake?

If it was a deliberate lie, and it may well have been, then that is terrible.

I think if it was not for Shane poaching - things could have been a diff story against Samoa - we will certainly miss this guy.

I was hoping he would stay on 1 more year to surpass the international try record (believe the Japanese fella at the top does not really count)

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Rods - there is no doubt he lied. How much more proof do you want.

Sin I'm not disputing it but there's a difference between saying something that is untrue and lying. Perhaps it was a genuine mistake?

If it was a deliberate lie, and it may well have been, then that is terrible.

There was video evidence which proved that Shane Williams was no where near the alleged incident so he couldn't have heard anything.

So, he did make it up.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

He has been an amazing player over the years and has been a fantastic amassador for Wales and rugby in general.

You must be joking! This is the player who got on a plane and went before a citing commissioner and lied that he heard something that he couldn't have heard because he wasn't close enough to hear and could have destroyed a fellow professional's reputation.

I hope Welsh rugby is better than that.

What was that sin? Was it against Quinlan? I can't remember the exact details.

Anyways Williams has always been a fabulous player to watch and comes across as gentleman of the pitch.

If he lied to a citing commission then thats not cool but I still stand by my assessment of Williams.

The Ospreys cited Marcus Horan for racially abusing Elvis Seveali'i in a Heineken Cup game (this was as a counter to Munster citing Mustoe for stamping on Horan's head - which required stitches). Shane Williams went to the hearing (got on a plane and flew to Dublin, so he had time to think about it) and swore that he heard Marcus Horan abusing Elvis. The mikes picked up exactly what Horan said and the cameras showed that Shane Williams wasn't close enough to Horan to actually hear what he said anyway. The statement from the ERC was very strong which stated that Horan never uttered the words in the first place.

After that incident, independent citing commissioners were introduced.

Think how annoyed Ulster fans were about the Spide incident and multiply it by about 1000.

Marcus who ?

1
1) Too short

2) Too lightweight

3) Poor defensively

Wee Shane was never as good as a lot of Welsh fans thought, but in his day he was very good and as a jinking sidestepping wing he was excellant, but did not have the physical attributes to be considered Great in this era, but good despite his limitations!

english warrior wrote:1
1) Too short

2) Too lightweight

3) Poor defensively

Wee Shane was never as good as a lot of Welsh fans thought, but in his day he was very good and as a jinking sidestepping wing he was excellant, but did not have the physical attributes to be considered Great in this era, but good despite his limitations!

No sorry I disagree. Williams was not the best defensively and wasn't strong in contact.

However every player has their strengths and weakenesses and Williams strengths far outweighed his weaknesses. His try scoring and try creating was fantastic by any standards and he is legitimally one of the best wingers of his generation.

english warrior wrote:1
1) Too short

2) Too lightweight

3) Poor defensively

Wee Shane was never as good as a lot of Welsh fans thought, but in his day he was very good and as a jinking sidestepping wing he was excellant, but did not have the physical attributes to be considered Great in this era, but good despite his limitations!

You're entitled to an opinion by all means but merely "good" is a remarkable understatement. Shane is and will go down as a world class player, I've been rating him within the all-time great bracket for Wales for quite some time now. A catalyst at the heart of two Grand Slams, one of the top try-scorers ever and generally an incredible attacking player. His defence was maybe not the best but recent try-savers on Banahan and SOB, as well as a host of other important tackles throughout his career, reflect how he's always punched above his weight in that area, you can't ask more than that. He's certainly no ROG

english warrior wrote:1
1) Too short

2) Too lightweight

3) Poor defensively

Wee Shane was never as good as a lot of Welsh fans thought, but in his day he was very good and as a jinking sidestepping wing he was excellant, but did not have the physical attributes to be considered Great in this era, but good despite his limitations!

Ha Ha Ha

What Poopie.

He's good enough to stop a guy 12 inches taller and 6 stone heavier on the line but then again England have always gone for size over skill.

Short and lightweight.....and very fast and very elusive and very strong.

I presume you can squat 3 times your bodyweight like he can.

And as for overrated well he must have been lucky to get 50+ international tries.


And Sin e I don't know what world you inhabit where you think lying (if he did) is worse than gouging.

munkian wrote:
Marcus who ?

Marcus "Heineken Cup x 2, Grand Slam x 1, Magners x ??, Triple Crown x loads winning prop" Horan.

doctornickolas wrote:

And Sin e I don't know what world you inhabit where you think lying (if he did) is worse than gouging.

I think you are in complete denial if you think he wasn't lying. What do you think he was trying to do in attending a citing and declaring that Marcus Horan had racially abused Elvis when a) Horan didn't (the mikes on the sideline picked up what he said) and b) Shane Williams wasn't near enough to hear what was said in the first place?

And for the record Quinlan was suspended for inappropriate contact of the eye AREA. Leo Cullen turned up at the hearing and said there was nothing in it.

There's a bloke works down the chip shop thinks he's Elvis - was it him that Horan racially abused?

Sin E, as much as you obviously hate Shane Williams, I've never heard that story before, and it wont be long before I forget it.

Shane Williams is a class act on the rugby pitch. His highlight reel will attest to that. And he was probably doing what he thought was right (if your teammate tells you he's been racially abused, you stick up for him - regardless of how far away you were from the alleged abuse - thats what team mates do).

I've never had a bad word to say about him, although, like everyone, im sure hes not perfect.

I really hope he at least plays in the December Australia match so Cardiff has a chance to wave him off - which we were denied during the 6N.

Shane is a legend of the game.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:I really hope he at least plays in the December Australia match so Cardiff has a chance to wave him off - which we were denied during the 6N.

Shane is a legend of the game.

If history is anything to go by, there will be a number of farewells. Plus he'll be playing Rabo and HCs won't he?

Comfort wrote:Sin E, as much as you obviously hate Shane Williams, I've never heard that story before, and it wont be long before I forget it.

Shane Williams is a class act on the rugby pitch. His highlight reel will attest to that. And he was probably doing what he thought was right (if your teammate tells you he's been racially abused, you stick up for him - regardless of how far away you were from the alleged abuse - thats what team mates do).

I've never had a bad word to say about him, although, like everyone, im sure hes not perfect.

I don't hate Shane Williams - I hate what he tried to do to a fellow professional - its not sportmanslike. Laud Shane Williams as a great rugby player, but he isn't much of a sportman because he claimed HE HEARD Horan racially abusing Elvis. He didn't go to the hearing and say Elvis told him he was racially abused, he claimed he heard him being abused.! He should have been banned for bringing the sport into disrepute. Your moral compass is way off. Maybe its all that bad karma is catching up now.

great shame to see him retire but i am not as worried as i was at the beginning of the WC when he said he would retire- a class player and will be remembered as a great but now time to let the youngsters have a go- i dont think he will be as missed as much as we all originally thought

welshy824 wrote:great shame to see him retire but i am not as worried as i was at the beginning of the WC when he said he would retire- a class player and will be remembered as a great but now time to let the youngsters have a go- i dont think he will be as missed as much as we all originally thought

Hmm maybe however if he didn't come off his other wing and poach the try against Samoa we could easily of been on the next plane home. Even with the special youngsters coming thru I do feel Shane still has that extra bit of magic that saves our bacon on quite a few occasions!

So you can confidently say that there was no point in the game at which Shane Williams could have heard a remark being passed?
You've obviously never played a game of rugby if you believe that, sly marks can be exchanged anywhere at any time on the pitch.

Also, why are people so quick to criticise great players and try and cut them down?
Firstly, pound for pound, Williams is very good defencively, Banahan, Lamont, O'brien.. All much bigger players who've been unable to get passed Williams in vital situabtions (all within 3-4 meters of the line).
Secondly, he's a very good and proffessional sportsman, I see him quite regularly attending events for grassroots rugby, gymnastics and other fundraisers around the Bridgend area without asking for a penny in return. Also, other than this extremely exagguratted incident that you've seemed to pluck out of thin air, he's not been in or around any trouble in his 11 year international career.
Finally, he's not only scored the 3rd most international tries ever (behind the incredible Campese and a Japanese winger that only plays teams that my local club could beat) but he's countless oppertunities for others to score. All of this, by the way, with poor ball behind an often very poor welsh pack.
Never mind the fact that he's done all of this in a unique style that's attracted spectators and kept crowds turning up, keeping the showboating to a minimum.

Good person. Great player. The Hall of fame awaits.

he will go down in rugby union history as one of the greatest wingers of all time. lomu will be the other.

kultschar wrote:

welshy824 wrote:great shame to see him retire but i am not as worried as i was at the beginning of the WC when he said he would retire- a class player and will be remembered as a great but now time to let the youngsters have a go- i dont think he will be as missed as much as we all originally thought

Hmm maybe however if he didn't come off his other wing and poach the try against Samoa we could easily of been on the next plane home. Even with the special youngsters coming thru I do feel Shane still has that extra bit of magic that saves our bacon on quite a few occasions!

yes he still does but not as much as he did in say 08- that was his best year i would say- still incredibly hard working and would be great if he could stay even just to guide the younger ones but i am saying we dont rely on him AS much

Touch of sour grapes from being knocked out by Wales ? Or in defence of AR?

Shame

Great player, should play in the December the 3rd game to give Welsh fans a chance to say goodbye, but it is time to retire now, he is looking slower and weaker now. No shame in that he has had a magnificent career, and age catches up with everyone, but there are a lot of young guns coming through the ranks for Wales and the Ospreys now and all he is really doing is bed blocking from this point onwards.

Shane Williams, Tommy Bowe, and Nikki Walker are basically holding up the development of young Ospreys players like Hanno Dirksen, Eli Walker, Kristian Phillips and Tom Prydie all of whom could potentially be quality international players based on the glimpses of skills they have shown over the past 2 seasons.

Shane scored one and made one yesterday. He deserves a December send off, as does Stephen Jones.

Shane Williams has been a great servant to Welsh Rugby and i for one wish him Bon voyage and good luck