Lady golfers unhappy about law to end sex discrimination

by Adam D Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:48 am

After the numerous ladies golf articles recently, I found this interesting one. Apparently lady golfers want equal rights but not have to pay as much as the men. Disgrace!! Thoughts?

The Equality Act has given women more rights in golf clubs – but many lady golfers have been left out of pocket and out of sorts.

It was meant to put women on a par with men.

Women golfers have long faced restrictions at their local courses on what times they could play and which bars they could drink in. Often they were blocked from becoming club captain.

So when Harriet Harman introduced the Equality Act to give women more rights in work places and social settings, golf clubs were seen as ripe for reform.
But the drive by Labour’s leading feminist seems to have landed in the bunker. Many women golfers say that, following the changes, which have brought an end to men-only tee-off times at many clubs, they now have to pay more for membership.

Although the legislation was passed by Parliament just before last year’s election and came into force in October, many of its effects are only now being felt, with golf clubs forced to rewrite their own rule books.

As well as allowing ladies to play on whatever day they want, clubs are also having to admit women to “men only” bars and restaurants in clubhouses, and some are abolishing the traditional post of club captain. Others are even planning to scrap “husband and wife” contests, replacing them with “mixed competitions” in which civil partners can also compete.

Kirstie Thirde, from the English Golf Partnership which incorporates governing and professional bodies, said many women were unhappy that they must now have the same unrestricted membership terms as men, meaning that they lost their ladies’ discount.

Mrs Thirde backed the Act but admitted: “Many golf club ladies don’t want equality.

“All they feel the Equality Act does is increase their fees and allow them access to the course at weekends, which they really don’t need.
“I visit an awful lot of clubs talking about the equality issue, and they will say to you 'women don’t want this.’ ”
Many women golfers are over 50 and retired. She said: “They play during the week. They don’t need access to the course at the weekend, so why would somebody pay for something they don’t want?”

Chris Jones, editor of Golf World magazine, said he too had heard women golfers complaining about the Act. “A lot of them are on fixed incomes and can’t justify an extra £40 a month for golf club membership.

“Most women don’t want to play with us men. They don’t want to endure the bravado, the trying to play like Tiger Woods, and the swearing, stamping and snapping of golf clubs that ensues. Ladies’ day is their day when they can get away from us.”
At some clubs, the post of club captain – once the preserve of men only – has been scrapped in favour of separate ladies’ and men’s captains. A 70-year-old honorary secretary at one club, who asked not to be named, regretted the change.
“To be club captain is one of the highest honours. These people that come up with the legislation don’t understand the traditions of this place.”
Some clubs have introduced changes with reluctance. Lenzie Golf Club, near Glasgow, announced that “veteran ladies” would now be expected to pay the same as “veteran gents”.

However, Robert Chalmers, the club captain, added: “I hope members will appreciate the changes are to be made as the result of legislation which we must comply with and not of our own initiation.”

A newsletter from Northwood Golf Club in Middlesex worried that “the new law bans the candidacy of a captain only being available to men. There’ll be a few harrumphs about this at the club bar, I am sure.”
The move was voted through with a big majority, but the club is now grappling with the thornier issue of whether it can still allow husband and wife discounts, or whether the average couple will have to pay an extra £200 in fees.

In Northwood’s newsletter, Steve Derbyshire, the club’s general manager, writes that “husband and wife competitions are discriminatory and need to be 'mixed competitions’ in future, taking into account civil partnerships as well as gender reassignment and sexual orientation issues”.
Alison Root, 43, the editor of Women & Golf magazine and a regular player, admitted: “To be honest, a lot of women don’t want change. They play during the week. They don’t care what happens on Saturdays. If you’re happy with your lot, why change?”
Objections to the Act among female golfers surprised Barry Johnston, compiler of the book The Wit of Golf. “I am sure they don’t want to go back to the bad old days,” he said.

“That’s when you heard stories about the ladies sitting on the veranda who were appalled by swearing from so-called gentlemen on the 18th hole. When the ladies complained, the committee took action – by banning ladies from the veranda.”

by LadyPutt Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:16 am

Please stop this rash of posts on women's golf - it's getting tedious. If we want to discuss women's golf, then we will. We don't need you to prompt us, especially as you have never posted articles on women's golf before the recent spat.

by gaelgowfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:38 am

Still Ladyputt it's an apt reminder that the real elephant in the room are the female members themselves who are too selfish to change and include weekend golf for their competitions.

I've also never understood the logic behind the claim that if women decided to play competitions at weekends that they must therefore play WITH the men.

Ah, dear old Northwood Golf Club: now there's a rave from the grave. Isn't this the club that, on inviting the Club Captain to the annual ladies' lunch, he then proceed to tell them off for not sending his wife the (up to that point) traditional bouquet of flowers?

At my club the women (all old like me) refuse to change the bad habits of the previous century and, as this frees up more time for male members at weekends, the men are happy to collude in this unspoken understanding.

by Marcus Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:47 am

What next? A thread on tips for women's golfing attire?

Golf clubs are getting better. I've just joined Prince's and wimmin are made to feel very welcome. Unfortunately the club next door is still in the dark ages, where they can play with a member, but then have to sit in the car park while the men sit in the club house.

by gaelgowfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:55 am

The daft thing is that if (an equal status) club has more than one 'drinking hole' in it, you tend to find the women using one and men t'other. At least, that's what happens at my club.

by drive4show Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:28 am

Due to current legislation, my club has recently changed it's membership subscriptions to just full, 5 day, junior etc. There is no longer a Men's and Lady's subscription. Seems to work pretty well I think.

Women are now fully entitled to play on Saturdays*

*providing of course they have finished all the housework

by George1507 Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:33 am

I don't understand why clubs don't have 'competition days' - say Sundays - when both men and women compete. It doesn't have to be in the same competition of course - although I have played in competitions open to men and women.

It just seems anachronistic for women not to play golf at the weekend, when many women golfers work through the week.

Also, clubs could do a lot more to help - for example running team competitions at weekends where a team could have 1 or more women.

by LadyPutt Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:50 am

My last club (on a municipal course) used to have joint competition days on Sundays for men and women when we could both play together, or separately, whichever we preferred. There was still an antiquated "ladies day" midweek - when the (even) older ladies used to play before the Senior men - and the majority of matches etc were played during the week although there was an interclub league for ladies among other clubs attached to pay and play courses which was played at weekends. Some clubs in Kent also started up a Business Ladies league which was played at weekends, but it appeared to be a bit of a "closed shop" as to who could play and another club I belonged to briefly still insisted on picking women who worked part-time (and therefore could play during ther week) and left out those of us who worked full time!

The ridiculous situation of working women not being able to play matches, competitions and outside events such as Opens at the weekend is one of the reasons I no longer belong to a club and will wait until I retire from full-time work (probably in about 5 years time) to join somewhere again.

by oldparwin Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:54 am

I did mark a ladies card in a medal comp, but her card it was rejected, because it was not marked by another lady member, but as she marked my card, and I had no problems with her marking it.

I think the ladies, themself need to look at what they want from the golf club, my opinion is that they are the ones, who do not seem to move forward.

by gaelgowfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:57 am

George, mine's is the last generation of 'stay at home' mums. However, this doesn't mean to say there weren't those who were in full time work. This group could demand a fundamental change in the fixture list but they prefer to play together on a midweek evening even if they've just come straight from their place of work - something which I absolutely hated in my working days in Edinburgh. I put it down to 'them and us' syndrome.

by George1507 Fri 28 Oct 2011, 12:24 pm

Gael, evening golf is fine. If they want to play then, then that's great. The problem is of course that from September until April it's not feasible to work and then play in the evening.

As far as I know most clubs have already abolished different fee levels for women and men. There are usually two or three categories now - full members, off peak members, and five day members. If women pay the same as men, then I can't see why (or how) they should be stopped from playing at the weekend.

Oldparwin's point above has some truth, but I think a lot of women in golf clubs have been members for a long time, remember how things used to be, and don't want to rock the boat. I think there's a sea-change coming though.

by gaelgowfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 12:40 pm

George ... do you routinely play your main stroke play competition on a midweek evening with no weekend choice available because if you don't ....

Where is your evidence to support this "sea-change". I see absolutely no evidence of it in my part of the world. It's business as usual.

The simple fact is that boys at my club can access weekend competitions. Girls can't. It shouldn't therefore come as any surprise to learn that my club hasn't produced from its meagre girl ranks even so much as a club champion never mind county or national champion in over forty years.

by Adam D Fri 28 Oct 2011, 12:59 pm

I think its disgraceful that women arent given exactly the same rights as men.

coould you imagine if it was based on race?

"Sorry - you cant enter competitions on weekends because you have black skin."

There would be an uproar - why should it be any different with regards to women being allowed to play?

by Davie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:03 pm

Once again I'm delighted to realize that I belong to such a progressively thinking golf club

Out of interest I looked at the events diary for this month and found the following ladies' competitions...

Weekends: 1 Non-Qual, 2 Qualies and one fun "match" between teams representing Lady Captain and Lady Vice Captain
Midweek: 2 Qualies, 1 midweek mixed seniors event

As it is close to the end of season now for qualifiers I also looked back at June as an example

Weekends: 2 Qualies and 36 hole ladies club championship
Midweek: 3 Qualies, 1 mixed seniors event and a ladies invitational day

by Davie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:07 pm

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:I think its disgraceful that women arent given exactly the same rights as men.

coould you imagine if it was based on race?

"Sorry - you cant enter competitions on weekends because you have black skin."

There would be an uproar - why should it be any different with regards to women being allowed to play?

Irrelevant. And a perfect example of a strawman argument

by George1507 Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:08 pm

Gael - no, I don't play stroke play competitions in the evening. If women want to do that, then as I said, that's fine. They should have an alternative though, that was my point.

My evidence for a sea change? I don't have 'evidence' but I do know that a lot of golf club committees in the south of England, north east of England, and some in central Scotland have been advised that their positions regarding women and weekend play are untenable. They have to act.

This is one of those 'avalanche' issues. Once a few clubs change, there'll be no stopping the rest. It may take a court case - but I think the change will happen soon.

by Maverick Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:18 pm

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:I think its disgraceful that women arent given exactly the same rights as men.

coould you imagine if it was based on race?

"Sorry - you cant enter competitions on weekends because you have black skin."

There would be an uproar - why should it be any different with regards to women being allowed to play?

The race card gets played to often in circurmstances where it's irrellevant, like this one. The world has moved on (except in the deep south of america) race is now not something that even comes into.

With regards to playing rights for men and woman yes they should be equal in the times they can play, the amount of competitions and the fees they pay. I don't however think every competition should be mixed as the skill levels are vastly different, this is not to take away from the talent any lady golfer has. Just that an equal playing field would not be in all events. There should be some mixed, and some mens and ladies only events so people can choose what they want to play in

by Adam D Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:28 pm

How is is it different exactly?

Discrimination is discrimination irrespective of the root of its evilness.

Would a club be allowed to have rules against ethnic groups? No. But they are allowed to have them against genders. That is the relevance to the discussion point - they are both forms of discrimination - one is openly spoken about and enforced, the other is socially taboo to most.

Racism, casual or otherwise, is an evil act, as is sexism. Why should either be allowed in golf rules?

by LadyPutt Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:36 pm

The trouble is, in this case, the sexism is in a large number of cases - probably the majority - condoned by the group who is supposed to be discriminated against! As others have said, many women golfers are their own (or perhaps that should be "their sex's") worst enemy by being happy to play midweek and leave the course free to the men at weekends. It doesn't do the working women any favours and can lead, as Gael said, to a dearth of good young female golfers.

by Maverick Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:37 pm

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:How is is it different exactly?

Discrimination is discrimination irrespective of the root of its evilness.

[Would a club be allowed to have rules against ethnic groups? No. But they are allowed to have them against genders. That is the relevance to the discussion point - they are both forms of discrimination - one is openly spoken about and enforced, the other is socially taboo to most.

Racism, casual or otherwise, is an evil act, as is sexism. Why should either be allowed in golf rules?

Some in the states do. Augusta national only relatively recently changed this from a no blacks rule. Totally disgraceful, no place in the world for racism.

Not saying it's right to have rules for different Genders, but that doesn't mean everyone has to mix the whole time if they choose not to, but they should have the option to mix or not.

Racism and sexism do not have a place in the rules of golf. I think your confusing the rules of golf with the rules of private members clubs. Private members clubs are allowed to set their own rules and accept who they want into their folds. Again whether thats right or wrong is a different matter. But the two should not be confused. Because golf is not a racist or sexist game.

by Davie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:56 pm

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:
Would a club be allowed to have rules against ethnic groups? No. But they are allowed to have them against genders. That is the relevance to the discussion point - they are both forms of discrimination - one is openly spoken about and enforced, the other is socially taboo to most.

You've answered your own questions about relevance. One is largely eradicated in this country and therefore has no relevance to the discussion. As I said earlier, it's a strawman

by Adam D Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:07 pm

Because something is eradicated it has no relevance?

Bizarre logic.

Why is it eradicated? Because of the social outcry. But golf clubs perpetuate another form of discrimination and you are fine with that?

Is racism worse than sexism? Is sexism worse than racism? Are they the same thing?

I am going to add a poll to the OP to see whether people want lady golfers at their clubs.

by drive4show Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:09 pm

Adam

Please can you ammend the poll to differentiate between good looking female members and non good looking female members.

That will give a truer reflection of how the males vote Whistle

by Diggers Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:11 pm

You should also have a poll to see if people would prefer their clubs not to be mixed race. For comparison purposes.

by Maverick Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:20 pm

Adam D (Hobo) wrote:I am going to add a poll to the OP to see whether people want lady golfers at their clubs.

Thats not the issue here is it. The issue is equality of the members not about not having them there at all. Also there are 2 ladies that have posted on here stating that half the issue is actually the lady members themselves. this just seems to be another thread getting blown out of proportion

by Marcus Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:20 pm

I have voted for no, as we're no longer in the 1950s. As far as I'm aware, the "no dogs or women" sign at Royal St George's has long since been taken down.

I have no issue with the laydeez playing golf at the same time as the men, as long as they're not playing in a fourball, taking an eternity to play each shot, and have regard for the etiquette of the game for calling faster playing groups through. Also, some of the female members are quite nice to look at.

by gaelgowfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:55 pm

The EU stuffed up bigtime. When the decided to lump together all types of clubs that was it ... game over for any hope of meaningful change.

by No1yankee Fri 28 Oct 2011, 4:06 pm

drive4show wrote:Due to current legislation, my club has recently changed it's membership subscriptions to just full, 5 day, junior etc. There is no longer a Men's and Lady's subscription. Seems to work pretty well I think.

Women are now fully entitled to play on Saturdays*

*providing of course they have finished all the housework

by oldparwin Fri 28 Oct 2011, 4:56 pm

All restriction on weekend golf has been lifted for the ladies at our club, they just choose a tee time and put their names down.

They have been doing it for the last 12 months, without any problems, in fact they have become more sociable in the clubhouse, due to the banter on the first tee.

by mystiroakey Fri 28 Oct 2011, 5:18 pm

whats going on with all these lady golfer threads.

anyway

surely its good to have a mixed club- otherwise what would we whinge about- aprt from the greens,bunkers, societys of course

by Maverick Fri 28 Oct 2011, 5:26 pm

oldparwin wrote:All restriction on weekend golf has been lifted for the ladies at our club, they just choose a tee time and put their names down.

They have been doing it for the last 12 months, without any problems, in fact they have become more sociable in the clubhouse, due to the banter on the first tee.

Agreed...

Our place did the same thing in january, it has helped to make a more harmonious environment, with the ladies enjoying some good banter and a cup of tea or two where before they simply kept themselves to their own groups.

by hogie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 5:54 pm

drive4show wrote:*providing of course they have finished all the housework [/i]

by Mary Fri 28 Oct 2011, 5:59 pm

My club has always been equal rights for all groups. Cheaper fees for Juniors and Youths, otherwise we all pay the same and no restrictions on when you can play.

Ladies morning is traditionally a Monday. We have 4 x loops of 9, so other members can always get on the course somewhere. Apart from comps such as Lady Captain's day and the Club Champs, we always have an alternative comp day allocated at the weekend for those who prefer to play then.

We have approx 3 official mixed pairs comps each year, and have just started doing some team comps which involve all sections of the club. Our pro shop also runs weekend stableford comps which are open to all.

I really like the fact that all sections get to mix together, probably as I am a great lover of banter! Very Happy

by 1GrumpyGolfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 6:16 pm

Welcome Mary, you will find the golf crew is a welcoming bunch. The last few days have been a little fraught but we're hoping that is over soon so please don't be put off.

Membership at my club is very small but there are no restrictions and couples can get a discount if they join together. There are several women who take part in our Saturday morning roll up and the groups or teams are then selected at random. The banter seems to work pretty well.

by Maverick Fri 28 Oct 2011, 6:30 pm

I know that Mrs Mav would prefer me playing at a single sex club! Apparently I'm to friendly.....

In all honesty though I don't get involved in playing mixed comps no reason other than they've never really appealled to me. Quite enjoy a mixed bounce game but when it comes to comps its just not for me.

by haystongolfer Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:48 pm

I used to date a lady golfer and we played in quite a few mixed events. They aren't for everyone but I found them quite good fun. We used to pick events that involved a decent course and an overnight stay and for about 12-15 quid you get to play courses that would normally cost at least 50 quid for both of you. That kinda takes the sting out of the hotel bill and it's a nice wee weekend. Sure the golf isn't the same as playing with the lads but it's a nice social day and with luck you play with nice people. At my club we are looking at harmonising fees and will offer different categories of membership to all irregardless of gender. Ladies can already join as full members and we are looking at a type of membership that both genders can hold with restricted access to the course which will allow ladies and gents to pay less and receive a restricted use of the course. We already have a five day membership and ladies can apply for this. It is a couple of hundred quid a year cheaper,

by Skydriver Sat 29 Oct 2011, 8:09 am

There's possibly a very good (or very bad) idea for a spawned thread there, in terms of experiences / advice regarding when your partner is your playing partner on the course?

by gaelgowfer Sat 29 Oct 2011, 9:18 am

haystongolfer wrote:I used to date a lady golfer and we played in quite a few mixed events. They aren't for everyone but I found them quite good fun. We used to pick events that involved a decent course and an overnight stay and for about 12-15 quid you get to play courses that would normally cost at least 50 quid for both of you. That kinda takes the sting out of the hotel bill and it's a nice wee weekend. Sure the golf isn't the same as playing with the lads but it's a nice social day and with luck you play with nice people. At my club we are looking at harmonising fees and will offer different categories of membership to all irregardless of gender. Ladies can already join as full members and we are looking at a type of membership that both genders can hold with restricted access to the course which will allow ladies and gents to pay less and receive a restricted use of the course. We already have a five day membership and ladies can apply for this. It is a couple of hundred quid a year cheaper,

So hayston, if any of your ladies decide they want to pay the full whack (the implication being they will want to play golf at weekends) have you discussed how the ladies' fixture will work in practice to accommodate those players or is this, as I suspect, just "a cunning plan" Rolling Eyes

to encourage the retention of what effectively amounts to a status quo situation viz keeping the old biddies happy by giving them cheap golf in order to keep weekends for male competitions only?

If you do decide to respond, please bear in mind, from a practical point of view, just how small (by comparison) ladies' sections are in the first place. For example, it's far easier to organise a separate midweek men's senior fixture list than it is to organise a meaningful weekend women's fixture list. Oh and please don't come back with alternative days because they didn't work under (enforced) associate m'ship days and they sure as hell won't work now.

by haystongolfer Sat 29 Oct 2011, 6:50 pm

Hi Gael

ladies have been able to become full members since about 2002. They get full playing rights including being able to book tee off times at any time even if it is a gents medal that day.If it's a ladies medal the ones who are full members can play earlier than the ones who are lady associates because they are not restricted to certain times. It seems to work okay. I quite often see ladies out on a Saturday morning playing alongside gents 3 balls.

by gaelgowfer Sat 29 Oct 2011, 7:52 pm

Hayston, when you say "medals", presumably you are referring to non drawn monthly medals? I'm more interested in which day the ladies drawn competitions are held.

Incidentally, you must be a very wealthy club to be able to consider offering reduced m'ship fees to what must be an ageing m'ship. Of course, the difference in loss of income would only be noticeable if a large section of your senior men's section decided to abdicate to the lower ranks. Whistle

by haystongolfer Sun 30 Oct 2011, 10:56 pm

Nope I'm referring to drawn monthly medals when lady full members can book a time with equak status to gents even if a gents medal is on. The lady (non full members) can play after 1pm or so I think

I dont think we are a wealthy club at all but we own our land and clubhouse and are retaining our membership by and large

by Doon the Water Mon 31 Oct 2011, 8:08 am

This was mentioned early but I don't think a man can sign for a womans club medal card.
Seemingly it is OK for a woman to sign a mens club medal card.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

by LadyPutt Mon 31 Oct 2011, 10:29 am

Doon - I've never come across men not being able to sign a lady's medal card. As long as the man holds a proper handicap, I don't think there's any stated rule that says he cannot mark a card - it's just that some ladies' sections are a bit precious when it comes to playing with men. Some clubs have it a "club" rule that medals can only be played on the designated day and within a particular time frame but that, from my memory (which is getting sketchy as I get older Shocked

) can only apply to the "club" medal element and not the EWGA (used to be LGU) medal which is a different thing.

I've been fortunate that no such restrictions applied at my old club and we all could play with who we liked and at whatever time we liked as long as it was on the same day.

by oldparwin Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:27 am

Doon

This is for some reason a local rule at our club

by Doon the Water Mon 31 Oct 2011, 11:38 am

OPW
I seem to remember from my past that I was unable to sign my daughters medal card for some reason.
I know this looks dodgy in some circumstances but no more so than 'mates' playing together.

by LadyPutt Mon 31 Oct 2011, 12:27 pm

Agree with you Doon - it's no more open to cheating for mates to sign each other's cards (especially if the same 4-ball always plays together) than for relatives (eg LordPutt and me; you and your daughter). In fact, I think mates are more likely to do it - in fact I've witnessed it.

by Mary Mon 31 Oct 2011, 12:35 pm

Doon - this is currently the rule at my club. But ...... there is a motion to change it being put forward at our AGM this very evening, so that any member can sign a lady's card for a comp. Best remember to take my tin hat along tonight - it could be lively!

by JDandfries Mon 31 Oct 2011, 1:51 pm

The issue with signing cards is down to the LGU, or CONGU or something, which says that the 'lady's card' must be signed by another female competitor eithing the group, or something like that anyway.

Our club recently brought this rule in, but has gottenr ound it by identifying the ladies section as an under represented group and therefore, becuase of its reduced number, does not fall under the equality bill, and they still have restrictions and pay a reduced fee!

I have no problem with this in theory, but as a full playing member, who due to work can only play at weekends, why am I not offered a 2 day membership, where is the equalty that supports me??

It has always been that way, and I have no issue, but if we are going to start this type of nonsense, where does it stop?

by gaelgowfer Mon 31 Oct 2011, 4:58 pm

Hayston, the problem with non drawn events is that it leaves the potential for a female who would prefer to play at weekends not being able to find anyone to play with. I would have preferred it if my club (equal status since 1979 btw!) had reversed the situation and placed the drawn (trophied) events at weekends with the non drawn stuff taking place during the week. There is no reason why this can't work as weekends consist of two days and it might make all the difference in trying to retain the interest of girls in the game.

I'll leave you with this thought. What do you think the standard of men's golf would be today (let alone m'ship numbers) had boys not been able to access club/area weekend competitions?

by Doon the Water Mon 31 Oct 2011, 5:23 pm

Gael is that not one of the main reasons young girls do not play golf.
They find it difficult to get off school/college to play in the Tuesday medal.

Woould you prefer your club to be single sex?