Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Did anybody else think the choice of ref was baffling.

This is the showpiece of the Pro 12. The two best and biggest clubs going head to head in front of 50 thousand. Why not give it an Irish ref who knows both teams. Let them go at it for 80 minutes and lets have a spectacle of a match without blowing for every possible 50/50 infringement.

We need to promote the game not bore people to death.

Munster tactics and negative play contributed to the dullness in fairness.

I can see why Joe was so upset about the game not being entertaining - no more big cash nights for Leinster Rugby on Munster's back!

A lot of the big cash nights have come to an end. I was shocked to be offered tickets to the Northampton game for next week end from numerous people. Considering the nice bit of history between the sides and it being HC, a stadium the size of TP would be a sellout months in advance in previous years. Also the seasontickets were a stretch for the clubs this year, a lot of people renewed only after significant effort from the clubs.

On the game going to Lansdowne road, considering there are only c.3,000 spare seats at RDS these days it would be silly not to move the game and give it the proper pomp 'n' ceremony it deserves.

Oh, and I'm not going to claim Leinster are immune to a drop in demand, a poor HC run and this wagon might be on the move up the N1!

I'll also add that the IRFU as landlord get a fair wedge of cash renting out the venue, cash which goes towards repaying the loans of building the bedpan but that money may also cover part of some centrally contracted players wages. I doubt Leinster are the only ones who benefit.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Did anybody else think the choice of ref was baffling.

This is the showpiece of the Pro 12. The two best and biggest clubs going head to head in front of 50 thousand. Why not give it an Irish ref who knows both teams. Let them go at it for 80 minutes and lets have a spectacle of a match without blowing for every possible 50/50 infringement.

We need to promote the game not bore people to death.

Munster tactics and negative play contributed to the dullness in fairness.

I can see why Joe was so upset about the game not being entertaining - no more big cash nights for Leinster Rugby on Munster's back!

Classic munster mentality that Leinster somehow owe munster some sort of debt of gratitude.

Not many opposition teams would be able to fill the Aviva enabling Leinster to feather Nacewa's pension fund well. So yes, you should be grateful.

Sin é wrote:

Not many opposition teams would be able to fill the Aviva enabling Leinster to feather Nacewa's pension fund well. So yes, you should be grateful.

The only reason Munster fans can help fill NLR is because so many of them had to move to Leinster to find jobs.

mafi spear tackled sexton, sexton lashed out with the boot, mafi then started swinging digs and ronan mc cormack sat on the two of them. i have no sympathy for mafi it was very dangerous. glad he got a boot. should sexton have gotten yellow for retaliation of course but he didnt and was cited. job done. its well in the past now.

i also found friday quite boring. i have actually found a lot of rugby quite boring off late. no real line breaks, defenses way on top, slow ball and messing at breakdown,props standing in the out half position, little or no offloading/line breaks, lots of aimless kicking the list goes on.

the ref was very fussy. granted both teams offended a lot but it keeping the yellow in his pocket so long spoilt it as a spectacle

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Did anybody else think the choice of ref was baffling.

This is the showpiece of the Pro 12. The two best and biggest clubs going head to head in front of 50 thousand. Why not give it an Irish ref who knows both teams. Let them go at it for 80 minutes and lets have a spectacle of a match without blowing for every possible 50/50 infringement.

We need to promote the game not bore people to death.

Munster tactics and negative play contributed to the dullness in fairness.

I can see why Joe was so upset about the game not being entertaining - no more big cash nights for Leinster Rugby on Munster's back!

A lot of the big cash nights have come to an end. I was shocked to be offered tickets to the Northampton game for next week end from numerous people. Considering the nice bit of history between the sides and it being HC, a stadium the size of TP would be a sellout months in advance in previous years. Also the seasontickets were a stretch for the clubs this year, a lot of people renewed only after significant effort from the clubs.

On the game going to Lansdowne road, considering there are only c.3,000 spare seats at RDS these days it would be silly not to move the game and give it the proper pomp 'n' ceremony it deserves.

Oh, and I'm not going to claim Leinster are immune to a drop in demand, a poor HC run and this wagon might be on the move up the N1!

I'll also add that the IRFU as landlord get a fair wedge of cash renting out the venue, cash which goes towards repaying the loans of building the bedpan but that money may also cover part of some centrally contracted players wages. I doubt Leinster are the only ones who benefit.

I'd say it far more likely that Leinster get the Aviva at a cheaper rate. As regards the central contracts - the IRFU are cutting back on them and the provinces have to fund them more and more.

Its a pity Leinster didn't build their own stadium - while Munster were playing in the Aviva - Thomond Park was hired out to Rugby League. I doubt very much if the IRFU are getting a cut of that - it will help repay the LOAN Munster have from the IRFU.

DOD wrote:The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

I'd hardly call winning the HC with the toughest route ever and scoring nearly 30 tries, with the greatest comeback in HC final history to score 27 unanswered points in the second half boring. But maybe we would have been better off sealing off possession for the last 10 minutes like your lads.

dublin_dave wrote:mafi spear tackled sexton, sexton lashed out with the boot, mafi then started swinging digs and ronan mc cormack sat on the two of them. i have no sympathy for mafi it was very dangerous. glad he got a boot. should sexton have gotten yellow for retaliation of course but he didnt and was cited. job done. its well in the past now.

i also found friday quite boring. i have actually found a lot of rugby quite boring off late. no real line breaks, defenses way on top, slow ball and messing at breakdown,props standing in the out half position, little or no offloading/line breaks, lots of aimless kicking the list goes on.

the ref was very fussy. granted both teams offended a lot but it keeping the yellow in his pocket so long spoilt it as a spectacle

It maybe in the past, but evidently its not forgotten by either of them.

dublin_dave wrote:mafi spear tackled sexton, sexton lashed out with the boot, mafi then started swinging digs and ronan mc cormack sat on the two of them. i have no sympathy for mafi it was very dangerous. glad he got a boot. should sexton have gotten yellow for retaliation of course but he didnt and was cited. job done. its well in the past now.

i also found friday quite boring. i have actually found a lot of rugby quite boring off late. no real line breaks, defenses way on top, slow ball and messing at breakdown,props standing in the out half position, little or no offloading/line breaks, lots of aimless kicking the list goes on.

the ref was very fussy. granted both teams offended a lot but it keeping the yellow in his pocket so long spoilt it as a spectacle

Yeah cynical play is not being clamped down on properly,I' beginning to think yellow cards should mean 15 minutes in the bin,Osreys,Munster and Cardiff are all doing well this season despite getting a huge amount of cards.Have defences worked out how to deal with being a man doen for short periods?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Not many opposition teams would be able to fill the Aviva enabling Leinster to feather Nacewa's pension fund well. So yes, you should be grateful.

The only reason Munster fans can help fill NLR is because so many of them had to move to Leinster to find jobs.

Not many Munster fans at that game. Mostly 'new' Leinster fans who obviously turn up to be entertained.

DOD wrote:LB was clearly wearing his heino goggles....

Stats from friday
18 Kicks from hand 11
125 Passes 73
89 Runs 69
173 Metres run with ball 288

Attacking
3 Clean breaks 5
7 Defenders beaten 9
3 Offloads 8

Which one do you think are Munsters stats????

In relation to clean breaks, Johne Murphy had a fabulous break in the second half, brilliant line of running by the fella.
Mind you looking at all the stats, I thought there were more than 30 penalties in the game!

http://www.espnscrum.com/rabodirect-pro12-2011-12/rugby/match/144631.html

I wonder where these stats occurred on the field.
Leinster scored on 7 penalties from the 13 conceded by Munster and all those kicks were in easy range. Leinster conceded more penalties, 17, but I suspect a lot would have occurred around the time of the penalty try (2-3 penalties there) and 2-3 during the lineouts in the corner.
Again, on the metres made in a game, Murphy/Barnes/Howlett running back kicks is great way to bump up the metres with ball in hand stat.

All in all it was a fairly even game with Leinster's defense coping slightly better than Munsters (Munster did give away more scoring opportunities through penalties) but Leinster's scrum was schooled (we were nudged backwards most occasions) and Cullen was dominated by POC when he called lineout to himself, Toner always seemed the better percentage option and Heaslip was a good option also.

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

I'd hardly call winning the HC with the toughest route ever and scoring nearly 30 tries, with the greatest comeback in HC final history to score 27 unanswered points in the second half boring. But maybe we would have been better off sealing off possession for the last 10 minutes like your lads.

Home quarter final and home semi final does not equal toughest route ever. Just look at the stats for home wins.

Mickado wrote:

DOD wrote:The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

I'd hardly call winning the HC with the toughest route ever and scoring nearly 30 tries, with the greatest comeback in HC final history to score 27 unanswered points in the second half boring. But maybe we would have been better off sealing off possession for the last 10 minutes like your lads.

I think Munster's group to the '08 final was as tough. Clermont in the group stages - no home quarters or semis and Toulouse in the Final. All done on the road (and not in the Aviva).

DOD wrote:The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

Leinster don't play anything like munster. Previously Leinsters forwards were man for man much weaker than they are now. This has nothing at all to do with munster. There is now a better balance and strength from 1 to 15 whereas there was not before.

Leinster v Northampton was one of the most exciting finals in Hcup history. There is no comparison with Munsters low scoring snooze fest final appearances.

Nah, we beat the 3 best teams in England and France to win it. it’s the toughest route to a victory ever lads.

leinsterbaby wrote:

DOD wrote:The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

Leinster don't play anything like munster. Previously Leinsters forwards were man for man much weaker than they are now. This has nothing at all to do with munster. There is now a better balance and strength from 1 to 15 whereas there was not before.

Leinster v Northampton was one of the most exciting finals in Hcup history. There is no comparison with Munsters low scoring snooze fest final appearances.

Didnt Leinster win a semi final in 09 6 -5 yes Six five? Doesnt have to be high scoring to be entertaining.....

Anyone else think BlueMuff and LeinsterBaby are the same person?.......

Yeah but the other team were very negative and were cheating. They were even worse than playing munster.

roddersm wrote:Anyone else think BlueMuff and LeinsterBaby are the same person?.......

Dont know what angle your coming at with that one but wasnt I just highlighting the weakness of his argument?

BlueMuff wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

DOD wrote:The only thing is Gibson...Toulouse still play like Toulouse as do ASM. Leinster dont play anything like Leinster used to. Thanks to their forwards...and learning from us...

Leinster don't play anything like munster. Previously Leinsters forwards were man for man much weaker than they are now. This has nothing at all to do with munster. There is now a better balance and strength from 1 to 15 whereas there was not before.

Leinster v Northampton was one of the most exciting finals in Hcup history. There is no comparison with Munsters low scoring snooze fest final appearances.

Didnt Leinster win a semi final in 09 6 -5 yes Six five? Doesnt have to be high scoring to be entertaining.....

And people will remember that game for years to come, but mainly because of the jokeshop move towards the end of the game.

I will say Munster beating Biarritz in MS was an amazing occasion. Leinster beating Northampton in MS was a great come back. Finals are not always entertaining matches.

To dog it out on the road through a QF and SF is a great story, but a better group run would have given home advantage so to claim Leinster's run is lessened because they were putting try bonus point wins over Racing Metro and Saracens, picking up away wins at both teams and dealing with Clermont.

Two provinces performing epic feats on the european stage to emulate Ulsters previous success and then claim the crown for a second time.

BlueMuff wrote:

roddersm wrote:Anyone else think BlueMuff and LeinsterBaby are the same person?.......

Dont know what angle your coming at with that one but wasnt I just highlighting the weakness of his argument?

Sorry BlueMuff, I'm just yanking your chains , you guys do seem to be kindred spirits though....

We can all agree that our win in 09 was at least as boring as either of Munster wins. That's taken as read. But clearly the 2011 victory can be held up as the most impressive in the history of the competition. Given the quality of the opposition and manner of victory throughout.

roddersm wrote:Anyone else think BlueMuff and LeinsterBaby are the same person?.......

Anyone else think Rodders and Eamon Holmes are the same person?

leinsterbaby wrote:

roddersm wrote:Anyone else think BlueMuff and LeinsterBaby are the same person?.......

Anyone else think Rodders and Eamon Holmes are the same person?

Rumbled

. its well in the past now.

Oh no, you don't understand...

Mickado wrote:Nah, we beat the 3 best teams in England and France to win it. it’s the toughest route to a victory ever lads.

nah - you have to do it on the road - especially with French teams. Its a while since Leinster ('06 - toulouse?) have beaten a top team in France.

Munster have done it recently (USAP who were top of the Top 14 at the time). Bonus try win down in France '09.

Mickado wrote:We can all agree that our win in 09 was at least as boring as either of Munster wins. That's taken as read. But clearly the 2011 victory can be held up as the most impressive in the history of the competition. Given the quality of the opposition and manner of victory throughout.

Northamptonn was beaten up the week before by Leicester - they were just knackered from that and couldn't keep going.

A bit like how 'tired' Leinster were when they played Munster in the Magners Final.

Would Leinster have been able to beat Toulouse & Leicester away?

Out of interest, has Leinster ever won in Welford Road?

On a serious note;

We all knew his shoulder wasn't right. He wasn't crashing into the line at pace and DArcy and the wingers were always drifting in close to him. I reckon that injury goes back as far as the HC final and they knew surgery would have kept him out of the rwc.

O'Malley now has his chance to step up! Or more likely McFadden plays 13 for Leinster up to Christmas.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/1107/leinster_ireland_odriscollb_surgery.html

clutching at straws chaps. i would almost propose fielding a weakened side losing a few group games to get an away path to the quarters and winning it that way to gain Sin e's approval

which johnny foreigner will win it for us this year. Steven Sykes maybe?

at the end of the day munster will not be getting near another HC unless they find a way to win at home, put more faith in their existing young players, find some more, clear out great servants who no longer can perform at top level and bring in a new coach. i have not seen anything that would lead me to believe mc gahan is up to it at HC level.

ah back to the old away victory in perpignan again are we.

Weren't Racing Metro top of the Top 14 (or close to it) when we schooled them?

winning it that way to gain Sin e's approval

No, no, you don't understand...

its great that we are having an argument over who's victories have been better and who has won the tougher games, shows how far the provinces have come.


To those worried about the standard of rugby they have been seeing
i have come to realise through watching the world cup the 6 nations the tri nations super 15 the robocop the jeff and the top 14. nothing comes close to the heineken cup, it is the best competition for rugby.

it has everything,

dublin_dave - I just think its a bit arrogant to claim that win as the best/most difficult route to win the Heineken Cup.

I rate the Munster win in '08 because it was done on the road against difficult opposition. It was a far more difficult route than the '06 route. Home QFs/Semis are vital. Do you think you would have beaten Toulouse in a semi down there last season? If you did then, I would rate that as a better win than Munster beating Toulouse in the final as that was neutral.

As for your second point - from Paul O'Connell in the Irish Times.

"Young guys coming in are, as I said, they’re big, they’re strong, they’re able to play ball. But what set those guys apart [Foley, Quinny etc] and what set Munster on the run to success was those guys’ mental attitude and their mental strength. If they came across a guy that was better than them, they’d figure a way to beat them. That remains to be seen in the young guys coming through.”

Full interview here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1107/1224307165027.html

Mickado wrote:Weren't Racing Metro top of the Top 14 (or close to it) when we schooled them?

They were well out of the competition when you played them at home. It was your last match I think so were not bothered. French teams are like that.

BOD out for 6 months.

He should really retire now.

arrogant claim hm we won the HC beating the best teams in the competition again. unless you are very lucky you have to beat the best along the way at some stage.

We did it last year with a bit of panache and topped it off with a terrific comeback in a great final. best ever? dont know. impressive? definitely

two wins v munster and leicester in neutral venues were also not to be sniffed at given our reputation as bottlers and chokers. closed it out v Leicester first time of asking and beat the mighty munster very convincingly in the final not too shabby at all thanks

"Young guys coming in are, as I said, they’re big, they’re strong, they’re able to play ball. But what set those guys apart [Foley, Quinny etc] and what set Munster on the run to success was those guys’ mental attitude and their mental strength. If they came across a guy that was better than them, they’d figure a way to beat them. That remains to be seen in the young guys coming through.”

Yes, by lying all over the ball.

This is an arrogant claim:

But clearly the 2011 victory can be held up as the most impressive in the history of the competition.

EDIT: And a stadium within a few kilometres of your home ground (in your province) is not a neutral venue.

That was never Foleys way Glas. And it was only a small part of Qunnies dark arts.

With O’Driscoll out what do you think of starting McFadden and O’Malley in the center next week?

Mick - I'd be surprised if your team changed at all next week.

I think McFadden will see a lot of gametime at 13.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Iosa and Rob Kearney switch positions.

Other than that I’d prefer if O’Malley started but can’t see it happening.

Boss should start again, thought he had a very good game.

too tired of some of the nonsense spouted on here to look over all HC campaigns to find the most impressive to be honest. if there were better well and good. end of the day HC champions are best team. its a long enough competition to remove the wheat from the chaff.

if we played two semi's in Dublin it is a reward for excellent group performances.

Should semi's be played in a completely different country? maybe but it could turn into a logistical nightmare. I mean would it have made sense to play Toulouse in Twickers or somewhere. Dont think so and the attendance would have suffered We were one of top seeds so got home path to final.

and dont suggest Thomond for a Leinster semi - far too many fairweather fans for that tinpot stadium.

I wouldn't be coy Stag. It was an effective ploy. The current batch just don't have Quinny's finesse at the dark arts.

BlueMuff wrote:BOD out for 6 months.

He should really retire now.

Nice rest and back in time for the final. He's only 32 so life in the old dog yet. Will be good to see someone else get a chance in the 6n though.

dublin_dave wrote:

if we played two semi's in Dublin it is a reward for excellent group performances.

No, its just luck. Toulouse were 'lucky' the year before.

Leinster were 'lucky' that both Munster's home semis ended up being played in Dublin ('06 & '09). Some reward for excellent group performances!

*

Sadly you right Glas. I think Munster actually have a team that can win with positive rugby. However injuries have hit us badly. We need one foreign signing still IMO.

Wian du Preez
Mike Sherry
BJ Botha

Donnacha Ryan
Paul O'Connell

Denis Leamy
David Wallace
Peter O'Mahony

Conor Murray
Ian Keatley

Lifeimi Mafi
Danny Barnes

Keith Earls
Doug Howlett
Felix Jones

If we use our last NIQ place to bring in a top centre or backrow then I'm chuffed. Can't decide which we need more.

Forgive me, that’s a bit out of line.

Here’s what I meant.

Since Leinster have beaten Munster you’ve written about:

1) How ex-Leinster pundits are biased, more biased than ex-Munster pundits
2) How Sexton only got a ONE WEEK ban for kicking Larry Murphy in the face
3) How Munster won’t entertain against Leinster because we’d make money off of it
4) How Munster’s win in 08 was as good as Leinster’s in ‘11

Very very little talk about the match that JUST happened there.

RS -

Give me TOL over Murray
Plus I think Chambers will improve...

Mickado playing the man...could be a citing. For feics sake Sin É can make whatever points he wants. If people find them boring dont answer them.