Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

DOD wrote:Yes of course one of our top try scorers shouldnt be playing. I'm sorry but spence and cave are just not good enough yet and McFadden looks like being another jennings (looks good in the mini rugby games but anonymous with the big boys). Barnes will make it before the aforementioned trio. Oh and mr earls has done the business for ireland at fb, wing and centre. Maybe we should try him at oh cos mr sexton is lookingat best as beinga caretaker of the position and not much else

They are definitely good enough I think. Both are a lot better than Barnes, and have been tested a lot more.

No more Ulster or Munster quota players. Best players play. Jenno in - to mentor Dom Ryan for Ireland.

You know it make sense.

Cave has been around for some time and is a good decent club centre but nothing more. Spence is a bit like a headless chicken on occasions. Barnes is relatively new in comparison and is going in the right direction. The other two have hit a wall (cave especially). McFadden needs to make the most of his opportunity with Bod injured.

Rab C Nesbitt on now. Working-class God and soothsayer.

I think I need some of the ulster boys to come in and disagree with you guys about Spence/Cave. One of them will be our 13, both are much better than Barnes. Spence is the youngest of the lot and definitely hasn't hit a wall, he is still developing and is a fantastic talent. Cave has been outstanding lately, though I do prefer Spence.

Rory,
Barnes will maybe aspire to being a water-boy for the Irish A's. Dont worry about him. Less than Spence and Cave.

Worry about O Malley and Macken. They are our future choices at 13.

I think you all over look the obvious. Barnes was born in NZ that makes him better than any other 13 that we have.

red_stag wrote:I think you all over look the obvious. Barnes was born in NZ that makes him better than any other 13 that we have.

Exactly..
Although he was brought up in Kerry which would worry me.

Gibson wrote:Rory,
Barnes will maybe aspire to being a water-boy for the Irish A's. Dont worry about him. Less than Spence and Cave.

Worry about O Malley and Macken. They are our future choices at 13.

The real problem is that none of them are within an asses roar of being half as good as an injured BOD.

DOD wrote:

red_stag wrote:I think you all over look the obvious. Barnes was born in NZ that makes him better than any other 13 that we have.

Exactly..
Although he was brought up in Kerry which would worry me.

That only makes his rise to stardom more impressive.

True. Phhok whatever and whoever, we try and attempt to replace him with - in our virtual dreams, Decco. Its the same with Paulie. They go. We will dip. It will happen.

Some journo had the leinster and Ireland winning % today for when they play with or without BOD. Doesn't look for good reading.

It will hurt us (Leinster & Ireland) - for along while, when he leaves .But. He has to be left behind. Its the natural order of things. POC and BOD, they won us the SLAM. On their very own backs. It was phhokall to do with Kidney.

Controversial? No. Just the Truth.

We need to look for more leaders.

Sexton is one. Best is another.

Gibson wrote:He has to be left behind. POC and BOD, won us the SLAM. On their own very backs. It was phhokall to do with Kidney.

Controversial? No. Just the Truth.

The truth in a sort of gibson twilight cloggie removed from reality world...

Anyhow I think you will find that dk himself would agree with you..

For Wales and Scotland:

15-9 Kearney, Carr, Bowe, Spence, Gilroy, Keatley, Boss

20-22 Murray, Sexton, Earls

For Italy, England and France:

15-9 Kearney, Earles, Bowe, Spence, Gilroy, Sexton, Murray

20-22 Reddan, ROG, Trimble

Jeezuz, don't you just scorn - Scarlets fans, who support the anomoly that is Ulster rugby?

When there is a far more lucrative future... in their own team?

Don't trust it.

It's because it's an anomaly, it appeals to my non conformist nature.

Are you saying my selection is provincially biased? I've only had them as my second team for five minutes!

Show me yours - no compromises the team you would pick unfettered.

Connacht. To Connacht or die.

Thats what ye Brits caused.

Tha were lucky, we used to get up before we went to bed

What do you make of Carr playing AIL, Glas? That would be the eqivalent of the Welsh premiership.

It took a visionary in the form of Lyn Jones to spot talent in two players who were playing for Abercrave and Amman United (down three or four leagues again) and bring them through to play for Neath and then the Ospreys. They were a short fat guy with curly hair who couldn't have looked less athletic if he tried and a short thin guy who looked as if he might snap if you tackled him. They were Adam Jones and Shane Williams. Now it wasn't easy for either of them to break through to the international team. Detractors were everywhere. If we'd have listened to them we could have kissed goodbye to two Grand Slams, but we'd have had two players in their place who "showed up well in training". It seems to me Ireland are lacking in visionaries if they are prepared to waste his talent, but at least he's getting game time not warming a bench. I hope you find out what you've got before it's gone.

An average winger?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think I need some of the ulster boys to come in and disagree with you guys about Spence/Cave. One of them will be our 13, both are much better than Barnes.

Spence and Cave aren't just the future, they are the present too. Cave is maybe the best centre in the country right now.

Barnes was pretty outstanding when he came on for Earls so I wouldn't right him off either. Munster need to play him at 13 though and stop picking these overseas journeymen.

We keep hearing about how great these Leinster kids are but the reality is Gordon D'arcy is still the best centre in Leinster. McFadden had a cracker at 13 against Munster but is 25/26 and has come up short a few times for Ireland and is yet to nail down a spot at Leinster. This season is sh*te or bust for him. Likewise O'Malley who's pushing into his mid 20's as well.

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think I need some of the ulster boys to come in and disagree with you guys about Spence/Cave. One of them will be our 13, both are much better than Barnes.

Spence and Cave aren't just the future, they are the present too. Cave is maybe the best centre in the country right now.

Barnes was pretty outstanding when he came on for Earls so I wouldn't right him off either. Munster need to play him at 13 though and stop picking these overseas journeymen.

We keep hearing about how great these Leinster kids are but the reality is Gordon D'arcy is still the best centre in Leinster. McFadden had a cracker at 13 against Munster but is 25/26 and has come up short a few times for Ireland and is yet to nail down a spot at Leinster. This season is sh*te or bust for him. Likewise O'Malley who's pushing into his mid 20's as well.

Why do you think that, rodders, will they move on if they don't make the break-thru?

Agree with.Asbo. People are age obsessed.

I doubt they will move on but both are in danger of missing the boat. They aren't 21 anymore and need to be playing regularly.

McFadden certainly is potentially a quality player but he has a few serious flaws to iron out in his game, which at 25, he should have done already. His progress has been held back by the fact that he hasn't played enough and has been shunted around positions. I thought his interplay with Fitzgerald was very good last weekend and he looked good at 13 and picked some good running lines.

I know less of O'Malley but the same applies, he needs to be playing week in week out.

I personally think the concept of a player getting picked in their late teens and racking up around 70-80 caps is the exception rather than the norm.

Thomond wrote:An average winger?

No comment.

red_stag wrote:I personally think the concept of a player getting picked in their late teens and racking up around 70-80 caps is the exception rather than the norm.

+1 (even tho I hate agreeing with Staggy )

I agree with Rodders that McFadden is about 25/26 now (older than Fitzgerald or Earls who seem to have been around for ages) and he is still not starting for Leinster. He has to get gametime and show good form now, or he will be overlooked for younger and better options.

Barnes I actually thought looked better on the wing. To me that was his best performance yet. I know Munster are suffering a bit in the midfield but Barnes does look like he could be one of their wings. I think it was stag that told me he was a winger to begin with.

Could O'Malley play 12? From what I have seen he looks an exciting prospect but I think his talents could be better utilised at 12. He has very good feet. Another option is Fitzgerald at 13 which I think will be his best position ultimately, maybe even playing there in BOD's absence.

red_stag wrote:I personally think the concept of a player getting picked in their late teens and racking up around 70-80 caps is the exception rather than the norm.

I'm not sure what you mean stag?

O'Malley and McFadden are not teenagers. They are well into the prime of their careers and are still bit part players at their province.

Players learn and develop by playing big games, winning, losing, not by holding tackle bags.

Rodders my point is that you are focused on age.

Why would playing McFadden from the age of 28-31 (three seasons in the Irish starting #12 shirt) not be an option.

Mike Ross made his Ireland debut when he was 29 or 30. That didn't matter in the slightest.

We have become used to a system where we pick a young player and keep picking them until they simply can't keep up anymore.

You are suggesting that players who are 24 and 25 years old are not going to make it. Donnacha Ryan turns 28 years old next month and has never at any stage of his career been first choice for Munster. However I still back him to have 1-2 seasons starting for Munster and Ireland.

BTW Eoin O'Malley only turned 22 years old in the summer.

To be fair stag, using Ross or Ryan as an example isn't really the same. Generally forwards come into the frame later on in their careers, because of the physicality required and especially for props, the experience needed.

Backs however are chosen at much younger ages, as they do not need the same level of physicality.

McFadden I think is the player rodders is talking about, as he is not at the place he should be and he is 25/26 now. He still hasn't broken onto the Leinster team. I think Fitzgerald should be ahead of him and play 13 imo.

red_stag wrote:BTW Eoin O'Malley only turned 22 years old in the summer.

I stand corrected. For some reason I thought he was older.

Stag I hate to break it to you but 28 is already coming to the end of a players prime especially for an outside back were pace and athleticism is critical. 24-28 is a players athletic prime.

Tight 5 forwards it is not such an issue but even Mike Ross we will be lucky to get 3 season out of. That is not ideal as you want to build continuity and consistancy.

It also takes time for most players to adapt to international rugby at 28 a player doesn't have that and it takes time for combinations to develop.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:To be fair stag, using Ross or Ryan as an example isn't really the same. Generally forwards come into the frame later on in their careers, because of the physicality required and especially for props, the experience needed.

Backs however are chosen at much younger ages, as they do not need the same level of physicality.

But you also have to bear in mind what the obstacles they have had in their career. Fergus McFadden is only a couple of months older than Darren Cave. I know if he was in Munster, McFadden would more than likely be starting.

That said off course if McFadden is 28 and the best 12 you would select him but he has a better shot at being the best 12 or 13 earlier if he is playing regulary now and not in 2 seasons.

I would rather he was the best center in the country at 25 and pick him, than at 29, that is my point.

Given the desire of some to turn the Irish team into a training/development squad why not take promising under 12's and start them. By the WC of 3041 we will have a decent team.

Well lets take James Downey who is 30 - he could have ended up playing for a few years for Ireland - we'll never know. But he was doing well for Saints and Darcy/Wallace were not for Ireland. Could have easily seen a 28/29 year old make a breakthrough there.

I think that people over estimate the amount of time that it takes to adapt internationally. I still hear people talk about how Sexton needs gametime to adapt internationally and how he needs to experience the international game - the bloke has nearly 30 caps for his country and played in 2 Heineken Cup finals.

IMO it takes no more than 18 months for a group to gel as a unit.

McFadden will get plenty of gametime before the 6nations, if he’s good enough to play in the center for Ireland at that stage, then he will. I don’t really see what the debate is, we can’t shelve him because there’s possibly better players who will mature around the same time as him.

I prefer Spence to Cave, Sin. I know that Cave also is 25 or so, same as McFadden. However both Spence/Cave are the best 13s in the country right now. McFadden SHOULD be the best 12, but he isn't because he isn't starting and hasn't actually been tested enough at 12. He needs to take the shirt from D'Arcy, which I think will be even more unlikely now with BOD's injury.

Sin é wrote:
But you also have to bear in mind what the obstacles they have had in their career. Fergus McFadden is only a couple of months older than Darren Cave. I know if he was in Munster, McFadden would more than likely be starting.

That may well be Sin but he's not at Munster and he isn't starting, which means that players like Earls and Cave are further on at an earlier stage of their career. The same applies to Ryan at Munster but thankfully it looks like he is starting to turn a corner. However as I said before 26 is much older for a 3/4 than a tight 5 forward.

Mickado wrote:McFadden will get plenty of gametime before the 6nations, if he’s good enough to play in the center for Ireland at that stage, then he will. I don’t really see what the debate is, we can’t shelve him because there’s possibly better players who will mature around the same time as him.

I don't think that is the point, I think the point is he isn't good enough to play in the centre yet because he isn't even starting there for Leinster.. D'Arcy is. Do you think McFadden will replace D'Arcy soon? Personally I hope he does, but for some reason that isn't the case.

There appears to be 2 points here:

- You need to show you can do it for your province before you should be getting into the national team - I agree

- Anything beyond 25 is too old for a back to be making a step up - I disagree

red_stag wrote:There appears to be 2 points here:

- You need to show you can do it for your province before you should be getting into the national team - I agree

- Anything beyond 25 is too old for a back to be making a step up - I disagree

The points aren't as black and white as that. The point is, McFadden is 25 and STILL hasn't managed to replace D'Arcy. By now, he probably should be starting as he has been around for a while. He is bigged up as our next inside centre and yet D'Arcy, who has been terrible for a while now, is still starting. He isn't too old by any means, but he should be further along in his development than he is.

Back up the truck.

Mick I am not on about shelving anyone. I am saying McFaddens career is in danger of passing him by if he doesn't make a serious breakthrough this season at Leinster.

DOD I want the best players in an Ireland shirt. However we are not Dad's army and cannot defy the laws of physiology. The sooner we get the talented players into the fold the better.

Stag there is nothing wrong with a player breaking through at 30 but breaking through at 23 is much better.

red_stag wrote:
- Anything beyond 25 is too old for a back to be making a step up - I disagree

No one has made that point or even suggested it.

Rodders I would say the point has been strongly suggested that 26 upwards is on the decline for backs but forwards mature later.

I think you are looking at this wrongly stag.. that isn't the point that is being made. Forwards mature later on in their career generally, so 25 is a good age to be breaking into the starting team. For a back however, the age is usually around 22/23. At 26, a back should by all means be establishing themselves in the starting lineup, and have good experience. That is the point that is being made about McFadden. There is no "on the decline" etc added to that. It is just that McFadden should probably be starting by now and be further along than he is.