Quick Question....

by Gordy Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:47 am

Hi all,

First post here. To start just want to say Im not a big boxing follower so apologies in advance if this question is silly. My question is basically is David Haye the worst ever heavyeight champion?

To give you a bit of background as to why I am asking, I am sure you are all aware that boxing legend Joe Frazier passed away recently and I was discussing this down in the pub with a few mates (none of whom know any more than me about boxing I should add). Now I watched the last David Haye fight and will happily admit that I bought into all the hype surrounding it. I really thought he was going to knock out the big Russian guy and put boxing on the map again. I hadnt really been following it much since the days of Tyson, Lewis and Holyfield so I really believed Haye was going bring back some of the excitement and didnt think the Russian guy was any use. Needless to say I was pretty shocked at how useless Haye was and felt the whole thing had just been a scam to make a few quid rather than a real heavyweight title fight. Now as I said this to my mates that Haye must have been the worst ever champion and somebody like Joe Frazier would absolutely clean up today they claimed that Haye would be his equal given how much sports had improved. I find it hard to believe given how rubbish boxing seems to be at the moment that somebody like Frazier who fought against Ali would not be able to knock out the likes of Haye or these Russian guys and I just want to get the opinions of some more knowledgeable folks on how good Haye is compared to other champions?

The other side question I wanted to ask if any of you guys actually box is how much a toe injury like Haye had would affect you? Is there any weight in that or is it all just an excuse?

Cheers

by The Galveston Giant Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:50 am

He's definately up there Gordy, toe injury or not Haye didn't have the bottle to trade with Wlad and circled on the outside like the rest of Wlads opponents, i wouldn't believe a word that comes out his mouth to be honest.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:56 am

in terms of record he is poor but using common sense says valuev - rahman and ruiz and a few others are probably worse. but david wasnt a great one.

by coxy0001 Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:58 am

Carnera, Chagaev probably rank up there.

by joeyjojo618 Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:02 am

Arent you supposed to be banned coxy?

Does Povetkin count as a champ with his 'regular' belt? If so him, he wont even get in the ring with Wlad. Really annoying me.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:02 am

oh and frazier would have ripped david hayes head off no question... david could not deal with that amount of pressure and power.

also "the russian guy" is actually ukranian and is a very dominant champion. though i must say david brought me onto his hype train.

by AlexHuckerby Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:04 am

to be fair povetkin hasnt lost his belt yet and cant list him yet

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:04 am

I would say hes somewhere between the 10-15th worst fighter to hold a heavyweight championship Gordy. For the last couple of decades there have been as many as 4 versions of the championship so there have been alot of poor champions, especially recently.

Frazier v Haye would be a mismatch by the way.

by bhb001 Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:07 am

Instead of an all time great list, can we have an all time stinker list? I'm certain we've done this before (not a new idea), but may be worth a re-visit, listing only those that won one of the recgnised belts (WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO).

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:10 am

10th to 15 sounds about right to me, there have been some stinkers in recent years, you also have to remember in the early days the WBO was ridiculously lightly regarded so guys like Damiani found themselves as world champion, much as I am not convinced by Haye find it hard to accept he is worse than guys like that.

by Bob Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:28 am

Youtube Bruce Seldon.

by Nico the gman Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:40 am

Frazier v Haye would be a Smokin Joe demolition job.

by OasisBFC Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:42 am

he's no where near the worst heavyweight champ.
he's not even near the top.

dont let the fact he lost against Wladimir who would beat any boxer on the planet cloud your judgement. he wanted to fight the best instead of pick off the other bums in the top 10 like areola and chambers.

by sodhat Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:50 am

OasisBFC wrote:he's no where near the worst heavyweight champ.
he's not even near the top.

dont let the fact he lost against Wladimir who would beat any boxer on the planet cloud your judgement. he wanted to earn as much money as possible, with as little work instead of pick off the other bums in the top 10 like areola and chambers.

I amended that one.

He was cynical and went the easy route, and came up short when he fought a heavyweight of true quality. I think you'd be hard pressed to make a case that he isn't at least near the top of the pile of worst HW's. The two champions he beat in Valuev and Ruiz are his contempories on such a list, so his resume to be a world champion is extremely weak.

by manos de piedra Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:56 am

OasisBFC wrote:he's no where near the worst heavyweight champ.
he's not even near the top.

dont let the fact he lost against Wladimir who would beat any boxer on the planet cloud your judgement. he wanted to fight the best instead of pick off the other bums in the top 10 like areola and chambers.

Where does Audley Harrison fit into that?

by Rowley Mon 14 Nov 2011, 10:59 am

manos de piedra wrote:
OasisBFC wrote:he's no where near the worst heavyweight champ.
he's not even near the top.

dont let the fact he lost against Wladimir who would beat any boxer on the planet cloud your judgement. he wanted to fight the best instead of pick off the other bums in the top 10 like areola and chambers.

Where does Audley Harrison fit into that?

Uncomfortably

by Nico the gman Mon 14 Nov 2011, 11:05 am

Had Audley used the quickstep or salsa might have danced his way to victory against Haye.

by sodhat Mon 14 Nov 2011, 11:13 am

Nico the gman wrote:Had Audley used the quickstep or salsa might have danced his way to victory against Haye.

I was reading the Metro (newspaper) this morning on the train, and I had to laugh at the piece they had on Audley going out of strictly.

They clearly had little concept of his boxing abilities, and were going on about how he used to use his feet to dance around the canvas and flummox his opponents.

by J.Benson II Mon 14 Nov 2011, 11:19 am

You have to remember that if the set-up of boxing were the same as it was during the time of Frazier (1 champion per division) then Haye would have just been seen as another contender.
The current era of multiple titles has given the likes of Haye to call themselves "world champions" despite not being considered the best fighter at the weight. Due to the multiple titles, there have been numerous poor "champions" over the last 2 decades.

In terms of ability, Haye certainly wasnt the worst, but his record at HW is very poor and could see him placed towards the bottom.

For me, Michael Bentt was probably the worst HW champion of all time.

As for Haye's toe excuse. Thats all it was...an excuse. Going into the fight, Haye claimed he was in the best condition he's ever been in. Haye always makes excuses; weight drained against Mormeck, broken hand against Valuev, no sparring against Ruiz etc. You can bet that he'd come up with another one if he fought and lost a re-match with Klitschko.

by Strongback Mon 14 Nov 2011, 1:34 pm

To the OP, Frazier is in a different league to Haye. Joe is one the all time great heavyweights and a fringe top 10 all time great heavyweight.

Joe demolishes Haye. Joe's been to places in the ring that few human beings would be able to endure. By comparison Haye is a fanny dancer.

by Gordy Mon 14 Nov 2011, 8:55 pm

Thanks for the replies fellas, thats what I thought to be honest. It seems to me like the guys around now like Haye and these big Russian guys are not a patch on the guys that came before like Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier, Ali and all these legends. Boxing just doesnt seem to be as big anymore. I not sure if UFC and these kind of sports are starting to take over but with guys like Haye being a champion it certainly seems that boxing is not what it was. I havent really followed it lately but I can remember the big fights in the nineties with Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield all battling it out and guys like Benn, Eubank and Collins fighting on the telly in epic matches that just dont seem to happen anymore. When I saw Audly Harrison fghting for the world title I figured things must be bad!

by bellchees Mon 14 Nov 2011, 9:14 pm

Gordy wrote:Thanks for the replies fellas, thats what I thought to be honest. It seems to me like the guys around now like Haye and these big Russian guys are not a patch on the guys that came before like Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Frazier, Ali and all these legends. Boxing just doesnt seem to be as big anymore. I not sure if UFC and these kind of sports are starting to take over but with guys like Haye being a champion it certainly seems that boxing is not what it was. I havent really followed it lately but I can remember the big fights in the nineties with Lewis, Tyson and Holyfield all battling it out and guys like Benn, Eubank and Collins fighting on the telly in epic matches that just dont seem to happen anymore. When I saw Audly Harrison fghting for the world title I figured things must be bad!

That's right up there with the worst moments in the history of the sport, as has been said Haye would not have been a world champion in a different era and look how easily he dispatched Harrison. That must be up there for worst ever fight for the Heavyweight championship of the world, the only thing it had going for it was it was short.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Tue 15 Nov 2011, 9:50 am

He's not the worst in terms of ability, but his desire to shortcut his way to the top means he is pretty close to the bottom of the heap in terms of record, bottom 10 probably.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the ring again within 12 months.

by **oxring** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 2:01 pm

Gordy wrote:Hi all,

First post here. To start just want to say Im not a big boxing follower so apologies in advance if this question is silly. My question is basically is David Haye the worst ever heavyeight champion?

He competes very well for this somewhat ignoble accolade.

You'd say that Marvin Hart would be up for this accolade. But hart has a win over Jack Johnson - however suspicious.
We move on to Carnera - but he beat Sharkey - allegedly fairly. Sharkey beat Schmeling.

Braddock is often mentioned - but the cinderella man has a much better story than Haye, beat some decent top ranked contenders eg Joseph Louis and then beat Baer, fair and square.

The awful crop of the post-Ali era probably beat him in terms of competition: Tate, Weaver, Dokes etc.

Leading us to Ruiz, Rahman, Byrd. Byrd has wins over legitimate HWs. Rahman stopped Lewis once. None of Haye's HW championship resume were as good as theirs (which is saying something).

Leading us to Liakhovich, Maskaev, Peter, and Valuev.

As much as I scorn Haye's HW run - it probably squeaks past a few of these - Maskaev or Liakhovich - certainly.

So he's not quite the worst champ of all time. Just.

by AlexHuckerby Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:18 pm

J.Benson II wrote:You have to remember that if the set-up of boxing were the same as it was during the time of Frazier (1 champion per division) then Haye would have just been seen as another contender.
The current era of multiple titles has given the likes of Haye to call themselves "world champions" despite not being considered the best fighter at the weight. Due to the multiple titles, there have been numerous poor "champions" over the last 2 decades.

In terms of ability, Haye certainly wasnt the worst, but his record at HW is very poor and could see him placed towards the bottom.

For me, Michael Bentt was probably the worst HW champion of all time.

As for Haye's toe excuse. Thats all it was...an excuse. Going into the fight, Haye claimed he was in the best condition he's ever been in. Haye always makes excuses; weight drained against Mormeck, broken hand against Valuev, no sparring against Ruiz etc. You can bet that he'd come up with another one if he fought and lost a re-match with Klitschko.

to be fair he broke his hand on valuevs head in the second... not really an excuse for me that one... he didnt spar for ruiz another fact he said it before the fight... whats wrong with them two? the others - the broken toe was just a weak moment right after which he later recinded the weight draining against mormeck who knows? you dont have his body so you dont know if its true or not and theres a lot of boxers that struggle with weight that get away with saying it and a lot of others that dont purely because people dislike them.

by **88Chris05** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 3:24 pm

I think we need Waingro to give us another poll in his specialist subject. Maybe something like 'Which David Haye excuse do you believe the most?'

by cave_man_KO Tue 15 Nov 2011, 5:15 pm

I dont see the difference between say Haye and Bruno for example.

Apart from Haye was way more savvy in securing the one fight he wanted, with out taking any risks, and raising his profile and bank balance at the same time.

by **oxring** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 5:32 pm

cave_man_KO wrote:I dont see the difference between say Haye and Bruno for example.

Apart from Haye was way more savvy in securing the one fight he wanted, with out taking any risks, and raising his profile and bank balance at the same time.

McCall>Bonin/Valuev/Ruiz/Harrison.

In fact - McCall>>>Bonin+THATRuiz+Harrison.

by manos de piedra Tue 15 Nov 2011, 5:56 pm

There have been some pretty poor champions before Haye. Liakhovitch, Bennt, Damiani, Hide, Seldon, Akinwade, Valuev, Ruiz would almost certainly rank below Haye. None of these guys were ever the man and were just titlist.

Then theres Maskaev, Tate, Page, Hart, Rahman, Spinks, Weaver, Carnera, Bruno etc that I think would form the kind of bracket that Haye would belong to. I would guess that talent wise hes probably equal than most of these guys in this bracket but the fact alot of them can claim to have held the official title, which Haye never did probably edges a number of them above him.

So Id see Haye in the 10-15 bracket.

by **oxring** Tue 15 Nov 2011, 6:05 pm

Only if we accept the likes of Damiani and Bennt as titlists. I prefer not to count them as the titles weren't that recognised. I was ignoring the likes of Seldon, Savold etc. The WBO wasn't really a real world championship until the mid to late 90s at least!

Agree with the Tate, Page, Hart, Rahman bracket. Not sure Maskaev deserves to be seen that highly, based upon his record. Also agree that Haye is out-edged by most of them - partly because his opposition at HW was pretty awful, in spite of his appreciable talent.

by Super D Boon Tue 15 Nov 2011, 6:35 pm

Bob wrote:Youtube Bruce Seldon.

Yes excellent choice. The way he surrendered his world title to Tyson was such a disgrace it made Audley Harrison's effort against David Haye look like the height of bravery!

So answer to the question is - NO David Haye is not the worst heavyweight champion ever. Bruce Seldon is.

by J.Benson II Tue 15 Nov 2011, 9:17 pm

AlexHuckerby wrote:
J.Benson II wrote:You have to remember that if the set-up of boxing were the same as it was during the time of Frazier (1 champion per division) then Haye would have just been seen as another contender.
The current era of multiple titles has given the likes of Haye to call themselves "world champions" despite not being considered the best fighter at the weight. Due to the multiple titles, there have been numerous poor "champions" over the last 2 decades.

In terms of ability, Haye certainly wasnt the worst, but his record at HW is very poor and could see him placed towards the bottom.

For me, Michael Bentt was probably the worst HW champion of all time.

As for Haye's toe excuse. Thats all it was...an excuse. Going into the fight, Haye claimed he was in the best condition he's ever been in. Haye always makes excuses; weight drained against Mormeck, broken hand against Valuev, no sparring against Ruiz etc. You can bet that he'd come up with another one if he fought and lost a re-match with Klitschko.

to be fair he broke his hand on valuevs head in the second... not really an excuse for me that one... he didnt spar for ruiz another fact he said it before the fight... whats wrong with them two? the others - the broken toe was just a weak moment right after which he later recinded the weight draining against mormeck who knows? you dont have his body so you dont know if its true or not and theres a lot of boxers that struggle with weight that get away with saying it and a lot of others that dont purely because people dislike them.

Personally, I just feel that Haye is a somewhat classless individual who always seems to have an excuse for every less than perfect display.

Before the Wlad fight, Haye claimed that he was in peak physical shape and never felt better. He never said anything to suggest that he was nursing an injury that could affect his performance. However, immediately after the fight, he takes his boot off to show the world his secret agony. He then flaunts his bruised toe on as many interviews and conference's as possible.

Against Valuev, he claimed that a broken hand was the reason he fought so defensively and couldnt deliever the KO. This is despite the fact it was obvious from the start that his gameplan was a very cautious and negative one. Its not like he changed his tactics halfway.

The comments he made regarding his weight issues are significant as he appears to contradict himself. After the Mormeck fight, he said that he's killing himself to make the CW limit and felt weak at the weight. After his move to HW, he said that he felt at his optimum and strongest. However, after his loss to Wlad he changes his tune again and claims that he was always a natural CW and could still make the 200lb weight limit now.
To me, it just seems like another excuse for the loss.

Even against Harrison, his lack of aggression in the opening 2 rounds are apparently because of a bet.

Perhaps all these excuses are valid but the fact he brings them up so quickly and often would suggest that he lacks grace.

One of the reasons I'm pleased he retired is because had he fought Vitali and lost (which he almost certainly would), he would have probably come up with some other reason for the defeat. It would be a busted finger, torn muscle or something on those lines which he would then parade to the media.

by JabMachineMK2 Tue 11 Dec 2012, 2:00 am

Can I direct Mr Bennett to the first post, and the second sentence.

Apologies for the thread necro-ing.

by AlexHuckerby Tue 11 Dec 2012, 8:29 am

Ah, Gordy's first ever post, back when he seemed innocent and harmless. He even admits to not knowing a thing about boxing, something we later found out for a fact ourselves.

by Rowley Tue 11 Dec 2012, 8:59 am

AlexHuckerby wrote:Ah, Gordy's first ever post, back when he seemed innocent and harmless. He even admits to not knowing a thing about boxing, something we later found out for a fact ourselves.

I think we should salute the man, I have been studying the sport on a pretty intensive basis for nigh on 20 years, have bought and read well in excess of 100 books on the subject, subscribe to both boxing magazines published in the country and have for nearly ten years and outside of certain periods of heavyweight history would not even begin to call myself an expert but in the space of little over a year Gordy has gone from knowing nothing to a point where he feels confident enough to mock or question the knowledge of nearly every other user on here, we are clearly in the presence of genius. One can only hope in the near future he turns what is clearly a one in a generation brain to issues such as the financial crisis, the middle east or global poverty as I am sure should he do so the problems blighting man could be eradicated.

by **seanmichaels** Tue 11 Dec 2012, 9:08 am

Gordy is scottrf.

by Rowley Tue 11 Dec 2012, 9:09 am

seanmichaels wrote:Gordy is scottrf.

I am increasingly coming to suspect you are right sean.

by Lumbering_Jack Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:14 am

You reckon? Makes you think that?

by coxy0001 Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:38 am

Gordy is far more irritating. Think a swarm of red ants up your bottom kind of irritating and you're just about there.

by Lumbering_Jack Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:42 am

I find Gordy humorous. I personally find it very difficult to find the energy to dislike people I know, let alone some Internet stranger.

by joeyjojo618 Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:46 am

seanmichaels wrote:Gordy is scottrf.

I have also been thinking this for a long time now. I wish scottrf would just come back instead though. I liked his one line sarcastic and/or irritating responses. And he knew a fair amount about the sport.

by **Union Cane** Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:50 am

joeyjojo618 is scottrf as well.

by Lumbering_Jack Tue 11 Dec 2012, 10:59 am

I'm scottrf

by TopHat24/7 Tue 11 Dec 2012, 11:06 am

Rowley wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:Gordy is scottrf.

I am increasingly coming to suspect you are right sean.

I don't remember scottrf being that much of a tool.

by joeyjojo618 Tue 11 Dec 2012, 11:10 am

Spoiler:

by **superflyweight** Tue 11 Dec 2012, 11:28 am

joeyjojo618 wrote:
Spoiler:

I had a weird feeling not long before the end of the old 606 site that everyone but me was an alias of Truss. It didn't feel good.

by **seanmichaels** Tue 11 Dec 2012, 11:33 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Rowley wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:Gordy is scottrf.

I am increasingly coming to suspect you are right sean.

I don't remember scottrf being that much of a tool.

He wasn't. If it was him it would just be a wind up, funny one at that.

by TopHat24/7 Tue 11 Dec 2012, 12:10 pm

It's this original post/topic that makes me think it isn't. The OP sounds genuine and innocent, and makes Mr Bennett even slightly likeable.

It bares no resemblance and no forewarning of the utter tripe his next 714 posts or so contained.

Internet WUMs like this really are the saddest, most pathetic lifeforms. Almost feel sorry for them that their real lives must be so insignificant.

by Super D Boon Tue 11 Dec 2012, 1:20 pm

Ironically Haye's win over Valuev is his best win and that includes all the fights in his so called cruiserweight domination that lasted two fights against avergae fighters in Mormeck and Maccarinelli.

Not a fan of Haye but the very worst champion of all has to be:

Alexander " a world title is a world title" Povetkin.

Not only does this chump fight the corpses of hasbeens and never weres he appears also to have no shame whatsoever. I'm convinced he will never take of Wlad because he's happy duping his foolish fans into thinking he doesn't need to. In fact, calling him a paper champion is an insult to all paper champions. He's not even that. At least Haye was the main man at the WBA.

So the answer is NO. David Haye is not the worst ever Heavyweight Champion.

by davidemore Tue 11 Dec 2012, 1:31 pm

Started with a bang there Gordy.

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