Ageless TMF beats peak Nadal!

by wow Tue 22 Nov 2011, 9:31 pm

Federer at 30 is still a force whereas Nadal at 25 is probably going in a decline.
Years after years Ndal had a poor 2nd half of the season and the trend continues.

Will Nadal be able to bounce back in his favourite clay season of 2012? We shall see.

Fed looks good for another slam.

TMF rules.

by erictheblueuk Wed 23 Nov 2011, 4:20 pm

I think Fed's been found wanting this year, at the later stages of slams.

I mean losing to Novak and Nadal is Ok, but are Berdych and Tsonga in the same class ?

by Guest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 5:26 pm

Im slightly confused about this conclusion.
What were people saying after Federer's first match? Headscratch

by FedsFan Wed 23 Nov 2011, 6:36 pm

Y I Man wrote:Im slightly confused about this conclusion.
What were people saying after Federer's first match?

Exactly! One post even said Fed/Nadal are playing crap. Perhaps true of the latter but not the former. My opinion changed after I watched JWT vs Fish and how he dealt with him. I was glad in a way Fed played him first before he settled in as JWT is not an easy player to handle when he gets going ala Wimbledon 2011!

Too early to presume Nadal is out of this. Until he is sitting on his private jet to Majorca I won't rule him out. I am just wondering if this was somewhat tactical. If he finishes top of the table, he could have played Djoko in the semis. We all know he wouldn't want that! Its impossible to write Nadal off. Just when you think he is spent he comes back with something amazing. 09 was horrible for him and he silenced everyone in 2010 who predicted a decline.

by noleisthebest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 6:52 pm

I am not expecting Nadal to come back with anything amazing, I'd be surprised if Tsonga chokes tomorrow's match away.
Unless Nadal is desperate to play Nole on Saturday (a potential winner of group A), then we're in for a fight tomorrow.

I suppose that is one of the many charms of RR system: we're only 2.5 days ino it and (aready) everything (almost) is possible!
Can you imagine RR at slams Shocked

by wow Wed 23 Nov 2011, 8:38 pm

Nadal has never done well in the second half of the year except 2010 and the trend will continue. Nadal will bow out in rr and will wait for clay season to start but looking at recent matches it seems his style of play is taking a toll on his body and I will not be surprised if 2012 will see a rapid decline in his performance.

by noleisthebest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 8:44 pm

wow wrote:Nadal has never done well in the second half of the year except 2010 and the trend will continue. Nadal will bow out in rr and will wait for clay season to start but looking at recent matches it seems his style of play is taking a toll on his body and I will not be surprised if 2012 will see a rapid decline in his performance.

From the Invincible Bull of 2008/9/20, he has become someone quite beatable. That is the difference.Next year will be the real test of where he's at both mentally and tennis-wise.

by wow Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:05 pm

NITB, this is slightly out of context but Nole is not looking the best at the moment. He is not playing good in this match.

by noleisthebest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:19 pm

wow wrote:NITB, this is slightly out of context but Nole is not looking the best at the moment. He is not playing good in this match.

I think he's playing well, just lack a few matches under his belt, that's all. It's not easy to continue at the same brililant level he left after USO straight away.

by erictheblueuk Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:24 pm

In 2009 Rafa played here and lost every match he played in straight sets, he then went on to win the DC for Spain, winning his matches in straight sets, so I wouldn't write him off yet.

by erictheblueuk Wed 23 Nov 2011, 9:27 pm

Personally I think out of the top 4 players Fed's the only one that's fully fit.

by time please Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:30 pm

Rafa looks out of ideas, but I confidently predict that the DC on Clay next week will see him feeling invincible out on court once more and so he will head into AO full of confidence.

Argentina obviously preparing very carefully for the DC final and want it badly, but even if Del Potro could live with Rafa, hard to see the strong Spanish team trouble by the rest of Delpo's compatriots.

by wow Wed 23 Nov 2011, 10:57 pm

Laver says that Fed might win Aus open. IMO if rafa-fed had met on hard courts more than current h2h would have looked very different.

by erictheblueuk Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:24 pm

wow wrote:Laver says that Fed might win Aus open.

A lot of people were saying that after Fed won WTF 2010.

by Guest Wed 23 Nov 2011, 11:29 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:
wow wrote:Laver says that Fed might win Aus open.

A lot of people were saying that after Fed won WTF 2010.

And they were right to make him one of the favourites. It took Novak, playing one of the best matches of his career, three tight sets to beat Fed. The match could have gone either way.

I expect Fed would've dispatched Murray in straights if he'd made it through to the final.

by erictheblueuk Thu 24 Nov 2011, 5:21 pm

emancipator wrote:
erictheblueuk wrote:
wow wrote:Laver says that Fed might win Aus open.

A lot of people were saying that after Fed won WTF 2010.

And they were right to make him one of the favourites. It took Novak, playing one of the best matches of his career, three tight sets to beat Fed. The match could have gone either way.

I expect Fed would've dispatched Murray in straights if he'd made it through to the final.

Novak was in no danger in that match unlike at the FO and the USO.

by time please Thu 24 Nov 2011, 5:59 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:Novak was in no danger in that match unlike at the FO and the USO.

I agree with you eric - Novak looked so impressive from start to finish at AO and never once looked in trouble or in a tight spot all tournament.

by wow Fri 25 Nov 2011, 11:18 am

A 3 setter between Fed and Fish took 1:48 hrs and the same 3 setter took 2:43 hrs for Tsonga and Nadal. I will not blame Tsonga for that. Had he played Fed instead of Nadal the time would have been same.
Nadal is still wasting time and moonballing shamelessely.

by Tenez Fri 25 Nov 2011, 11:26 am

Another Nadal bashing thread!

boxing

by wow Fri 25 Nov 2011, 11:36 am

Tenez wrote:Another Nadal bashing thread!

Coming from you Tenez. Are you thinking of switching your loyalities? Very Happy

This is not bashing, I am just stating the truth. Nadal was wasting time and also moonballing at the end of first set.

by Tenez Fri 25 Nov 2011, 12:09 pm

wow wrote:
Tenez wrote:Another Nadal bashing thread!

Coming from you Tenez. Are you thinking of switching your loyalities?

This is not bashing, I am just stating the truth. Nadal was wasting time and also moonballing at the end of first set.

by break_in_the_fifth Fri 25 Nov 2011, 12:16 pm

Having been at the match I didn't think on this occasion against Tsonga that Nadal was too slow. His routine was shorts, hair, hair, 5 or so bounces and then serve but he managed to complete this pretty quickly.

by wow Fri 25 Nov 2011, 12:18 pm

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Having been at the match I didn't think on this occasion against Tsonga that Nadal was too slow. His routine was shorts, hair, hair, 5 or so bounces and then serve but he managed to complete this pretty quickly.

Did you notice the moonballing?
Not bashing but a genuine question.

by break_in_the_fifth Fri 25 Nov 2011, 12:48 pm

I did notice a large number of cross court forehands on many points Wink

But on the points where Nadal was successful with this, he did break this pattern and go for something else when he was sure it would work. Lol I finally felt like I understood what Nadal was about in a way.

As for moonballing, maybe but I can't say for sure. This may sound odd but most of the time my attention was focussed on Tsonga and shots he was hitting. I had to consciously decide towards the end of the second set where the match could have potentially finished that I should watch Nadal a bit more and that I hadn't seen enough of him. I tried to do this but then I'd see an unforced error or something like that and my attention shifted back the other way. So my memory is mostly Tsonga going for shots and either succeeding or failing, I do however remember some good shots from Nadal at key stages such as where he broke Tsonga to take the second set. There he increased the pace of his forehands to get some winners. As for moonballing throughout the whole match I couldn't say for sure sorry:headscratch:

by lydian Fri 25 Nov 2011, 1:48 pm

Yeah Nadal was moonballing that much that most of his FHs were going in the net.

by Positively 4th Street Fri 25 Nov 2011, 2:01 pm

wow wrote:Federer at 30 is still a force whereas Nadal at 25 is probably going in a decline.
Years after years Ndal had a poor 2nd half of the season and the trend continues.

Will Nadal be able to bounce back in his favourite clay season of 2012? We shall see.

Fed looks good for another slam.

TMF rules.

You need a remedial lesson about fractions wow. What constitutes half of the seaon for you? Post-US Open? That's barely a fifth, if that. Even post Wimbledon is hardly half, given that 3 of the slams have been played. Sure, Nadal's record is poor in the last 6 weeks or so of the season but a lot of this has to do with the surfaces; he really struggles indoors. Some will say it is his energy levels that have dropped, and there is an element of that, but I am sure he will look a different player in the Davis Cup final.

by wow Fri 25 Nov 2011, 2:08 pm

Post Wimbledon is half of the season. It is another matter that 3 slams fall in first half. You could have counted aus open into second half but it comes after another break hence theoretically not possible. And on top of that I am not attending a Maths lecture anyway.

My Maths once upon a time was pretty good and with some help from you, I should be able to improve it Smile

by Positively 4th Street Fri 25 Nov 2011, 2:27 pm

In terms of matches, and big tournaments, played I would disagree that it is half after Wimbledon. Even if it were, winning the US Open and losing in the final is not too shabby, not to mention winning the Canadian masters twice. Oh, and the Olympics.

What is your view on a callow Nadal beating a peak Federer back in 2004?

You are welcome to Maths help any time Very Happy

by Guest Fri 25 Nov 2011, 2:44 pm

time please wrote:
erictheblueuk wrote:Novak was in no danger in that match unlike at the FO and the USO.

I agree with you eric - Novak looked so impressive from start to finish at AO and never once looked in trouble or in a tight spot all tournament.

I'm not so sure. Didn't federer serve for the second set? If he had had managed to close it out, the whole complexion of the match could have changed.

The fact that it took Novak 3 hours to beat Roger (only one set went to a tie-breaker) given the rapid pace at which Roger plays I think is evidence enough that it was a very competitive encounter that hung on just a few points.

by wow Fri 25 Nov 2011, 2:51 pm

Positively 4th Street wrote:In terms of matches, and big tournaments, played I would disagree that it is half after Wimbledon. Even if it were, winning the US Open and losing in the final is not too shabby, not to mention winning the Canadian masters twice. Oh, and the Olympics.

What is your view on a callow Nadal beating a peak Federer back in 2004?

You are welcome to Maths help any time

Exactly the reverse is happening now, when Fed is the underdog Smile

by Guest Fri 25 Nov 2011, 2:59 pm

wow wrote:
Positively 4th Street wrote:In terms of matches, and big tournaments, played I would disagree that it is half after Wimbledon. Even if it were, winning the US Open and losing in the final is not too shabby, not to mention winning the Canadian masters twice. Oh, and the Olympics.

What is your view on a callow Nadal beating a peak Federer back in 2004?

You are welcome to Maths help any time

Exactly the reverse is happening now, when Fed is the underdog

Federer entered Miami in 2004 with a bad cold, He was considering withdrawing. The day before he played Nadal he had a three setter against someone else. I think those details explain his lacklustre performance on that occasion.

by Tenez Fri 25 Nov 2011, 3:09 pm

emancipator wrote:
Federer entered Miami in 2004 with a bad cold, He was considering withdrawing. The day before he played Nadal he had a three setter against someone else. I think those details explain his lacklustre performance on that occasion.

Exactly. Federer had just won IW the previous week and Nadal was beaten by Gonzo that week. If Gonzo 2004 could beat Nadal 2004, Federer could too.

by Positively 4th Street Fri 25 Nov 2011, 4:20 pm

I thought excuses were the sole preserve of the man from Mallorca? Different rules for different threads...

I was merely pointing out the fallacy of basing an argument on a solitary match, and showing how it could be turned on its head.

by erictheblueuk Fri 25 Nov 2011, 4:30 pm

I don't think we've yet seen a peak Nadal, the guy like Murray and Novak is still improving.

by Tenez Fri 25 Nov 2011, 4:53 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:I don't think we've yet seen a peak Nadal, the guy like Murray and Novak is still improving.

I agree except that they improve much faster than Nadal. In fact, even Federer improves faster than Nadal nowadays.

by coolpixel Sat 26 Nov 2011, 6:37 am

"I don't think we've yet seen a peak Nadal"

how about last year? i doubt he willl be able to repeat that what with Djokovic breathing down his neck?

by Guest Sat 26 Nov 2011, 10:39 am

I think we've already seen a peak Nadal.

2008-09. His BH was at his best; flatter, more powerful and his movement was explosive. Only his serve improved in 2010, but I don't think his BH was as good.

by bogbrush Sat 26 Nov 2011, 12:17 pm

emancipator wrote:I think we've already seen a peak Nadal.

2008-09. His BH was at his best; flatter, more powerful and his movement was explosive. Only his serve improved in 2010, but I don't think his BH was as good.

Agreed. I've not seen the flat dangerous backhand for a very long time.

by Tenez Sat 26 Nov 2011, 3:49 pm

No way. His shots in 2008 were very short actually. 2011 was by far his best year despite a slower serve. But if you think about it, he only had a faster serve for the US 2010, nowhere else in 2010....for weird reasons!

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