Sugar Ray Robinson / Jake LaMotta

Have recently been reading a lot recently on the boxers from the 30's / 40's / 50's.

Now one thing that really stands out is that when the mafia got involved in boxing you really had to get 'connected' to get a title shot.

This brings me to two boxers that did have connections, Sugar Ray Robinson and Jake LaMotta.

In the Charley Burley book there are mentions that the 'fixes' usually worked in three fight deals. I think in Charleys case he was told to lose the first then he could do what he wanted in the second and third.

As I'm fairly new to the history side I was just wondering whether anyone else thought the LaMotta win over Sugar Ray was a fix - on paper it seems Robinson was too good technically even with LaMotta's weight advantage.

Possible I guess, but I don't know of any evidence to support it, so don't consider it one.

Personally i don't think it was but be interesting to see other opinions.

Am not convinced myself and have not really seen any evidence to support it so would have to say not. Think there is a risk to over estimate the extent of fixes back in those days, not saying thet did not happen but would be doing fighters a disservice if we put an asterix against every terrific performance because shocks happened then as they do now.

Also the weight advantage was pretty severe and LaMotta was by no means a bum, couple that with the frequency they fought and I am willing to accept a flat performance from Ray as being on the level.

rowley wrote:Am not convinced myself and have not really seen any evidence to support it so would have to say not. Think there is a risk to over estimate the extent of fixes back in those days, not saying thet did not happen but would be doing fighters a disservice if we put an asterix against every terrific performance because shocks happened then as they do now.

Also the weight advantage was pretty severe and LaMotta was by no means a bum, couple that with the frequency they fought and I am willing to accept a flat performance from Ray as being on the level.

Interesting. I'm currently reading 'Jacobs Beach' and it seems to think that just about every fight (at least at MSG) was controlled in one way or another. Could this be a case of a book making more of the mafia side to make it more of a crime / boxing book than a straight forward boxing book?

Have got Jacob's Beach but have not read it, will get round to it at some point. Think it is clear you had to have the right friends to get shots but my understanding is a lot of time fighters were not asked to throw fights, although there were obvious exceptions such as Lamotta Fox, but rather asked to carry guys.

Ray's mob assocations are an interesting subject, have read bits and bobs which allude to this such as the Burley story you have mentioned but am yet to read anything definitive, think like Ali he is one of those guys who is seen as off limits in terms of criticism. But in the absence of evidence we have to give him a pass particularly as it is more than obvious that he was more than talented enough to have achieved everything he did without any outside assistance.

It is a common complaint from that era that there were hugely talented fighters around that were never given opportunities they deserved and it does seem many of the champions of those days like Zale, Graziano, La Motta, Lesnevich, Cochrane and so on were extremelly fortunate when on a more even keel they would possibly be little more than contenders.

The mob influence in boxing in those days was quite significant although the impression I get is that the majority of fixes and underhand dealing went on in less significant matches and for the very big fights I would be skeptical of the level of their involvement purely due to the potential for large scale repercussions.

It would seem to make more sense for a fix to be on the LaMotta Fox fight, as the odds were clearly stacked in LaMotta's favour, Making betting on the upset hughly profitable.

I'd guess that finding out the odd's on a LaMotta win over Robinson that night, might make or break your theory.

rowley wrote:
Ray's mob assocations are an interesting subject, have read bits and bobs which allude to this such as the Burley story you have mentioned but am yet to read anything definitive, think like Ali he is one of those guys who is seen as off limits in terms of criticism. But in the absence of evidence we have to give him a pass particularly as it is more than obvious that he was more than talented enough to have achieved everything he did without any outside assistance.

In fairness it does mention that Robinson and Louis were 'off limits' for these guys. Just can't imagine the mob being overly protective of non Italian fighters (if any fighters at all!).

manos de piedra wrote:It is a common complaint from that era that there were hugely talented fighters around that were never given opportunities they deserved and it does seem many of the champions of those days like Zale, Graziano, La Motta, Lesnevich, Cochrane and so on were extremelly fortunate when on a more even keel they would possibly be little more than contenders.

The mob influence in boxing in those days was quite significant although the impression I get is that the majority of fixes and underhand dealing went on in less significant matches and for the very big fights I would be skeptical of the level of their involvement purely due to the potential for large scale repercussions.

Would probably make sense, yet they were trying to ensure everything was dealt with 'in house' ensuring all the titles remained with them regardless. Could you imagine if a promoter would only arrange fights with his own in house fighters in the modern era........oh.

The Burley book suggests that Robinson threw a couple of fights - but one of those was his LHW tilt against Maxim. How much creedence do we give this opinion?

Got to wonder why he'd push himself so hard and be up on the cards against Maxim only to lose by TKO (the only stoppage loss of his career) if it were a fix.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Got to wonder why he'd push himself so hard and be up on the cards against Maxim only to lose by TKO (the only stoppage loss of his career) if it were a fix.

Maybe it was a pride thing, he wanted to prove he was the better boxer before losing in the set round (pure speculation, haven't seen the fight in question).

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Got to wonder why he'd push himself so hard and be up on the cards against Maxim only to lose by TKO (the only stoppage loss of his career) if it were a fix.

My opinion exactly. Odd choice of fight for SRR to throw and odd way to throw it.

oxring wrote:The Burley book suggests that Robinson threw a couple of fights - but one of those was his LHW tilt against Maxim. How much creedence do we give this opinion?

Can't see it myself, don't think you throw a fight after putting in so much effort, a win in that fight would have sealed his legacy beyond doubt.

Especially when the fight with Maxim was due to heat exhaustion, after the ref had to be replaced, and you could see Robinson fading in the previous rounds.

Heat exhausion against Maxim for sure.Goldstein passed out before him
Mob influence was there but Ray was simply too good to be bought buy it.Now I am not naive enough to think it didnt have an influence on him or the game at that time. Sinatra liked Ray and I guess that helped.
By all accounts Ray carried a few and he didn't actually go against the mob guys.Burley did and that tells in the fights they got.
Ray carried a few non mob wise as well.His fight against Armstrong.Lots of informed opinion there that Ray could have finished it earlier but didn't.
I think like Huw said Robinson and Louis were out of the control of the mob."Off limits"
Same applied to Dempsey but not for quite the same reasons